Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #2

[10ofRods]

The quote may not be accurate. That makes sense. The same guide is quoted in this article. Can anyone access the full Dec 26 article:

Disappearance of an English hiker in the Pyrenees: "The hypothesis of an accident is the most credible"

Disparition d'une randonneuse anglaise dans les Pyrénées : "L’hypothèse d’un accident est la plus crédible"

Available only by subscription, it tells me.

 

[Puzzles]

Duplicate DBM

 

[Puzzles]

Someone posted upthread specialized equipment is required to hike Maladeta and stated ED didn't have that equipment.
ED's mother said she and her daughter were in contact "several times a day".

IMO, it's unlikely ED changed her plans to hike Maladeta without necessary equipment and without telling her mum, or DC.

On the other hand, we really can’t know what transpired during conversations between ED, her mum and DC.

 

[otto]

It was an interview with Sud Radio - the Sun made up the rest
Disparition d'Esther Dingley dans les Pyrénées - "Dans 99,9 % des cas, c'est un accident" - Sud Radio

Thank you! It does seem that the other article embellished the portion about the glacier.

 

[RickshawFan]

Other side of the mountain.

View attachment 276998

Oh, okay. Now I see. Ya, she could have gone that way.

 

[ZaZara]

Someone posted upthread specialized equipment is required to hike Maladeta and stated ED didn't have that equipment.
ED's mother said she and her daughter were in contact "several times a day".

IMO, it's unlikely ED changed her plans to hike Maladeta without necessary equipment and without telling her mum, or DC.

On the other hand, we really can’t know what transpired during conversations between ED, her mum and DC.

That someone might have been me, on page 4 of this thread:

The hike up the Salvaguardia is considered easy in the many descriptions that I have read.

The hike up the Maladeta is far more difficult and you need to bring crampons to cross the glacier. If the pictures are anything to go by, this is sprain-your-ankle territory, long before you reach the glacier.

If Esther was collecting mountains, she may have wanted to add the Maladeta to her achievements. But Esther didn't, on the contrary, she enjoyed to return to places that she liked. Hence twice the climb of the Salvaguardia.

There is also the matter of time. She had enough daylight left to reach the Refuge Venasque but not much more. If she decided to change her plans and go to another area to climb the Maladeta, wouldn't she have informed her partner at some time during the next 2 days?

IMO we have to take this story of the Maladeta glacier with a few grains of salt.

BBM

 

[RickshawFan]

I see what you mean. I wonder why the guide thinks she's in that area.

She'd only have to have made a mistake at the Port? That's what it looks like to me. I don't see how you could do that in broad daylight, though. The lake basin is clearly in sight.
Otherwise, she chose to change her plan and go that way? Where would it take her to if she crossed the glacier successfully?

Also, she might not have realized that crossing a glacier late in the day when the sun has been beating down on it can be very hazardous. And then, it might also have snowed a few days prior when the valley was getting rain? Plus, the temperature in that area dropped very cold... there would have been ice atop that glacier.

 

[otto]

She'd only have to have made a mistake at the Port? That's what it looks like to me. I don't see how you could do that in broad daylight, though. The lake basin is clearly in sight.
Otherwise, she chose to change her plan and go that way? Where would it take her to if she crossed the glacier successfully?

Also, she might not have realized that crossing a glacier late in the day when the sun has been beating down on it can be very hazardous. And then, it might also have snowed a few days prior when the valley was getting rain? Plus, the temperature in that area dropped very cold... there would have been ice atop that glacier.

Looking more carefully at the area, I think all mention of Maladeta in the article is embellishment.

 

[RickshawFan]

Someone posted upthread specialized equipment is required to hike Maladeta and stated ED didn't have that equipment.
ED's mother said she and her daughter were in contact "several times a day".

IMO, it's unlikely ED changed her plans to hike Maladeta without necessary equipment and without telling her mum, or DC.

On the other hand, we really can’t know what transpired during conversations between ED, her mum and DC.

Didn't ED recently have a positive experience with rock climbing? This might have given her confidence in more technical areas. Though why you'd head onto a glacier without crampons is beyond me.

 

[otto]

She'd only have to have made a mistake at the Port? That's what it looks like to me. I don't see how you could do that in broad daylight, though. The lake basin is clearly in sight.
Otherwise, she chose to change her plan and go that way? Where would it take her to if she crossed the glacier successfully?

Also, she might not have realized that crossing a glacier late in the day when the sun has been beating down on it can be very hazardous. And then, it might also have snowed a few days prior when the valley was getting rain? Plus, the temperature in that area dropped very cold... there would have been ice atop that glacier.

The glacier is easy to point at and claim that if she is there, she could have fallen into a crevasse and may not be found for years. I don't think she was in that area.

I'm inclined to look further into the Port de Venasque, and whether she could have arrived at the Port de Venasque at 3:30PM, bypassed the summit, bypassed the refuge, and decided to trek to the Hospice de France. According to a couple of trail sites, that is 2H15M hike from the Port. She had enough daylight and dusk light to arrive there are 5:45 PM.

 

[RickshawFan]

The glacier is easy to point at and claim that if she is there, she could have fallen into a crevasse and may not be found for years. I don't think she was in that area.

I'm inclined to look further into the Port de Venasque, and whether she could have arrived at the Port de Venasque at 3:30PM, bypassed the summit, bypassed the refuge, and decided to trek to the Hospice de France. According to a couple of trail sites, that is 2H15M hike from the Port. She had enough daylight and dusk light to arrive there are 5:45 PM.

I really liked this idea the moment it was suggested. But didn't someone say upthread that the Hospice is closed for the season? Is it at least partially open? My French is too basic for me to translate the website precisely.

On the other hand.... ED might not have known it was closed, so the actual status of the Hospice might be moot.

My original idea was that, yes, indeed she decided to book it to the Hospice. I can see her wanting company, internet....

It's possible she got into the valley near the Refuge, saw the signs for the Hospice, and was so unwilling to hang around at the Refuge, that she decided to go for it, even though it wasn't in her original plans. If there was no cell service right at the trail sign (Otto's photo upthread), she would not have been able to check for sure whether the Hospice was open.

She may also have assumed the 3 hour journey that the sign post projects could easily be made faster. In the conditions, and with a backpack, this would have been a bad assumption. She'd also already hiked a bunch that day, so would have been fatigued, for certain she wouldn't have any water left (2-3L, if she had it, would have been consumed in the hike to this point), it was about to be frigid, the trail was likely wet, and she'd been lulled into confidence that bivouac-ing was do-able.

 

[RickshawFan]

I'm inclined to look further into the Port de Venasque, and whether she could have arrived at the Port de Venasque at 3:30PM, bypassed the summit, bypassed the refuge, and decided to trek to the Hospice de France. According to a couple of trail sites, that is 2H15M hike from the Port. She had enough daylight and dusk light to arrive there are 5:45 PM.

Didn't you have a photo upthread with a signpost that said 3 hours to the Hospice? And that signpost is down in the lakes basin where the Refuge is located?

Any way you go to the Hospice from the Port, the trail routes you to the Refuge, n'est ce pas?

 

[otto]

This site has good photos of the trail from the Hospice de France to the Port de Venasque, includes photos of the waterfalls.

Pic de Sauvegarde, 2738m, en boucle depuis l'Hospice de France.

 

[jsoap]

Other side of the mountain.

View attachment 276998

Sorry, that's a small lake, Ibon-de-Col-de-Toro maybe. Not a glacier.
Please the glacier thing is really not relevant.

 

[otto]

This site includes a short video from Port de Venasque where he states that he's hoping to pick up some water on the way down. He also mentions Maladeta across the valley.

SimonWillis.net: Bagneres de Luchon - Backpacking Port de Venasque

 

[otto]

Sorry, that's a small lake, Ibon-de-Col-de-Toro maybe. Not a glacier.
Please the glacier thing is really not relevant.

I added the arrow to point at the glacier on Maladeta, not the lake. Agreed that the glacier across the valley on Maladeta is not relevant. A Dec 17 British tabloid quoted a guide as saying that Esther fell into a crevasse on the Maladeta glacier, but that makes no sense.

 

[otto]

Didn't you have a photo upthread with a signpost that said 3 hours to the Hospice? And that signpost is down in the lakes basin where the Refuge is located?

Any way you go to the Hospice from the Port, the trail routes you to the Refuge, n'est ce pas?

I think the suggestion is to pass the refuge this way:

The sign post is at the Hospice de France

"Pass in front of the hospice and turn right, sign posted "Port de Vénasque". Count less than 2h30 and not 3h as indicated."
...

"For the Port of Vénasque, no need to go down to the refuge, continue on the left path, inscription on the rock."
​

Pic de Sauvegarde, 2738m, en boucle depuis l'Hospice de France.

 

[ZaZara]

I really liked this idea the moment it was suggested. But didn't someone say upthread that the Hospice is closed for the season? Is it at least partially open? My French is too basic for me to translate the website precisely.

On the other hand.... ED might not have known it was closed, so the actual status of the Hospice might be moot.

My original idea was that, yes, indeed she decided to book it to the Hospice. I can see her wanting company, internet....

It's possible she got into the valley near the Refuge, saw the signs for the Hospice, and was so unwilling to hang around at the Refuge, that she decided to go for it, even though it wasn't in her original plans. If there was no cell service right at the trail sign (Otto's photo upthread), she would not have been able to check for sure whether the Hospice was open.

She may also have assumed the 3 hour journey that the sign post projects could easily be made faster. In the conditions, and with a backpack, this would have been a bad assumption. She'd also already hiked a bunch that day, so would have been fatigued, for certain she wouldn't have any water left (2-3L, if she had it, would have been consumed in the hike to this point), it was about to be frigid, the trail was likely wet, and she'd been lulled into confidence that bivouac-ing was do-able.

I guess I might be that someone once again. Here is my post:

Hospice de France is closed until May 2021.

Hospice de France, auberge, restaurant, refuge, Bagnères de Luchon, hospice,randonner,

Remember there is a LOCK DOWN in France. In December the tight rules have been loosened a bit, but this was not the case in November when Esther was there.

 

[RedHaus]

"For the Port of Vénasque, no need to go down to the refuge, continue on the left path, inscription on the rock."Pic de Sauvegarde, 2738m, en boucle depuis l'Hospice de France.

snipped for focus

@otto, I like that added piece of information you identified - one does not need to go directly by the refuge de vanesque to get from port de vanesque to hospice de France. That might explain searcher dogs not picking up ED's scent at the refuge, although we really don't know why the LE have declared ED did not make it to / stay at the Refuge.

Since I first postulated the idea (post #249, p. 13 of Thread #2) ED may not have summitted pic de sauvegarde on 11/22, but instead crossed the port de vanesque into France that afternoon, I continue to rally around that idea.

Others have since added some interesting things to consider further, such as what risks ED would have taken to do so, what route she may have taken, and where she may have stopped for the night if she did not make it to hospice de France on 11/22. I am particularly intrigued by the ravins that someone (sorry, I can't recall who upthread) discovered on the way out of the refuge valley - deep holes she may have accidentally fallen into (were they snow covered?).

But IMO, I think it is more likely ED got past a lot of the obvious risks we've been talking about and was far along her route to the hospice de France when she likely stopped for the night - down by the streams and forests, perhaps. I can't say what data is pointing me to that presumption other than ED's preparation and skill. But like I said before, ever since @ZaZara said she thought ED would be found under trees (way back in Thread #1), that continues to haunt me.

And of course, thinking about the Susan McLean case that was posted upthread to remind us all, I am now wondering to what degree LE and searchers went off-piste looking for ED. For Susan McLean it was a potentially fatal error by the Scotland police. So I wonder if there is any way to find out details about the ED search area (off the trails, etc.). In particular, I'd be curious about the degree to which the trails / environs between the refuge and hospice were searched.

Lastly, I think the whole glacier thing is just sensationalized reporting. It just doesn't make sense, although I like the quote someone found up thread about ED finding glaciers mystical. The only way that scenario would play out is if she purposely risked her life to climb / cross the Maladeta glacier without necessary equipment either on 11/22 or 11/23.

My two cents for today!

 

[otto]

snipped for focus

@otto, I like that added piece of information you identified - one does not need to go directly by the refuge de vanesque to get from port de vanesque to hospice de France. That might explain searcher dogs not picking up ED's scent at the refuge, although we really don't know why the LE have declared ED did not make it to / stay at the Refuge.

Since I first postulated the idea (post #249, p. 13 of Thread #2) ED may not have summitted pic de sauvegarde on 11/22, but instead crossed the port de vanesque into France that afternoon, I continue to rally around that idea.

Others have since added some interesting things to consider further, such as what risks ED would have taken to do so, what route she may have taken, and where she may have stopped for the night if she did not make it to hospice de France on 11/22. I am particularly intrigued by the ravins that someone (sorry, I can't recall who upthread) discovered on the way out of the refuge valley - deep holes she may have accidentally fallen into (were they snow covered?).

But IMO, I think it is more likely ED got past a lot of the obvious risks we've been talking about and was far along her route to the hospice de France when she likely stopped for the night - down by the streams and forests, perhaps. I can't say what data is pointing me to that presumption other than ED's preparation and skill. But like I said before, ever since @ZaZara said she thought ED would be found under trees (way back in Thread #1), that continues to haunt me.

And of course, thinking about the Susan McLean case that was posted upthread to remind us all, I am now wondering to what degree LE and searchers went off-piste looking for ED. For Susan McLean it was a potentially fatal error by the Scotland police. So I wonder if there is any way to find out details about the ED search area (off the trails, etc.). In particular, I'd be curious about the degree to which the trails / environs between the refuge and hospice were searched.

Lastly, I think the whole glacier thing is just sensationalized reporting. It just doesn't make sense, although I like the quote someone found up thread about ED finding glaciers mystical. The only way that scenario would play out is if she purposely risked her life to climb / cross the Maladeta glacier without necessary equipment either on 11/22 or 11/23.

My two cents for today!

I agree about the Maladeta glacier. I was initially mistaken about the location and originally believed the tabloid article quoting the guide. She is not in that area. She was on the trail to the Port de Venasque around 3 PM on Nov 22.

Did she go to the Pic de Sauvegarde at 4 PM, or to the Port de Venasque at 3:30 PM? Did she need water or was she just hoping another hiker would share some food? Did she intend to go to the Refuge de Venasque or was she intent on bivouacking farther down the trail? Did she know that the Hospice de France was closed due to covid and lockdown, did she expect that if she showed up she would be allowed to visit regardless of lockdown?