Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

[Palemaiden]

Didn't LE confirm it was one of their people in the van?

Indeed, yes LE stated forensics I believe but there was some discussion around that claim as the dog walker who reported it had stated she saw the person in the van lying down sleeping or resting. There was very little reported after that..

 

[The_Investigator]

If Esther had been found alive, there would not be recent articles about her disappearance.

View attachment 280897

Monday January 18 2021

Missing hiker Esther Dingley had relationship problems, witness tells police | News | The Times

That’s not true, the press won’t be told, the police information would be confidential, specifically because people who want to go missing don’t want the people they are running away from to be informed. So long as there is no crime apparently, it will become a closed case as the person was ‘found’ in a safe situation.

 

[RickshawFan]

Maybe not coordinated exactly, in terms of 'we'll search this area, you search that area', we don't know whether or not they objected, but............
From DCs info pack:-

Esther’s partner Dan, was in close communication with both the French and Spanish search teams on a daily basis, providing information on Esther’s preferences, ability, hiking pace and communication habits. He also walked and searched the hillsides around all of the trails in the immediate area of Esther’s last known location on the French side (walking alone so he could continue outside of standard SAR hours).

That's his version, though, not LE's. I tend to go with LE on anything SAR.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Now that you've highlighted "selected", I wonder what we're missing?

None of our business really. We already have a load more information than usual, thanks to the dossier. A dossier which I suspect was produced to stop people like us nitpicking over every inch of the poor girl’s life, but has probably done more harm than good (on this thread, anyway)

Chances are Esther will be found dead in spring, probably from an accident, and it will all be utterly irrelevant. But hey, at least we might find out how much food she had with her....

 

[RickshawFan]

Indeed, yes LE stated forensics I believe but there was some discussion around that claim as the dog walker who reported it had stated she saw the person in the van lying down sleeping or resting. There was very little reported after that..

Maybe they were lying on the seat/bed so they could duck their head underneath to have a look?

 

[RickshawFan]

None of our business really. We already have a load more information than usual, thanks to the dossier. A dossier which I suspect was produced to stop people like us nitpicking over every inch of the poor girl’s life, but has probably done more harm than good (on this thread, anyway)

Chances are Esther will be found dead in spring, probably from an accident, and it will all be utterly irrelevant. But hey, at least we might find out how much food she had with her....

No food. Either the marmots ate it, or the lake creatures, or......

 

[stmarysmead]

That's not true; we don't know how long they interacted. From the dossier (BBM) "Selected messages received from Esther are quoted below to indicate the times she set out, the times she subsequently reached Pic de Sauvegarde on both days and her happiness at the time."

yes...I see your point. We don’t know. But we also don’t know if Dan received more messages.

Dan creates some confusing here. The previous sentence is:

“The following timeline is based on WhatsApp messages and calls BETWEEN Esther and Dan on Saturday 21st and Sunday 22nd November. “

He doesn’t say..”some messages between Esther and Dan” or “selected messages between Esther and Dan.”

When he uses ‘selected messages”...there is no clarification. All the other non-selected messages could be with other people.

But he does say that the investigators have the full documentation...that’s all that matters.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

But he does say that the investigators have the full documentation...that’s all that matters.

Exactly. We are not entitled to anything.

 

[The_Investigator]

If Esther had been found alive, there would not be recent articles about her disappearance.

View attachment 280897

Monday January 18 2021

Missing hiker Esther Dingley had relationship problems, witness tells police | News | The Times

That’s not true, the press won’t be told, the police information would be confidential, specifically because people who want to go missing don’t want the people they are running away from to be informed. So long as there is no crime apparently, it will become a closed case as the person was ‘found’ in a safe situation.

I do think these points are relevant to a female of Esther’s age. I don’t think anyone’s life can be idyllic, actually. Most people have positive and negative factors in their lives. I do think that late thirties, for a female, can be a time when you consider what you’d like to have in your life that isn’t already there. Is the relationship you are currently in going to provide that? If not, then how do you go about making upheavals? If you are even slightly sensitive in character then that will be a big deal!

Children? Marriage? Home? She may or may not want any of those. The current partner may or may not want any of those. A career, yes or no, I don’t think she wanted that IMO, I get the impression she was done with career and academia, she wanted camping, simplicity, plenty of women’s travelling around the world in campers with kids, ... and I think that would be terrific, .. what a REAL adventure that would be for her, rather than repeating the same old European treks, off to Oz with a new male or female partner. We can’t assume male,...

 

[The_Investigator]

Now that you've highlighted "selected", I wonder what we're missing?

Do you think we could fill in the missing messages. At least we could come up with several possible very different scenarios to work though?

 

[The_Investigator]

Exactly. We are not entitled to anything.

Shame.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Do you think we could fill in the missing messages. At least we could come up with several possible very different scenarios to work though?

Could? Yes.
Should? Definitely not!

 

[otto]

That’s not true, the press won’t be told, the police information would be confidential, specifically because people who want to go missing don’t want the people they are running away from to be informed. So long as there is no crime apparently, it will become a closed case as the person was ‘found’ in a safe situation.

There are too many legal repercussions if people are reported missing and there is no update when they are found. I don't believe that the EU announces missing people but does not announce that they are located. It has nothing to do with privacy.

For example, suppose Esther has a large student debt. If she is missing, that debt is handled differently than if she is missing and located. It can't be true that people can voluntarily disappear, with international headlines, reappear, and authorities keep that information secret.

Obviously the personal details of the disappearance are kept private, but a change in status from missing to located is not kept secret.

 

[stmarysmead]

None of our business really. We already have a load more information than usual, thanks to the dossier. A dossier which I suspect was produced to stop people like us nitpicking over every inch of the poor girl’s life, but has probably done more harm than good (on this thread, anyway)

Chances are Esther will be found dead in spring, probably from an accident, and it will all be utterly irrelevant. But hey, at least we might find out how much food she had with her....

I think it’s important to keep one unique aspect of this case in mind and that is this couples approach to social media. We all know people who use social media as a marketing tool for their business. Esther and Dan certainly did that. They invite readers to share their wonderful photos with others...that’s marketing to increase an audience. They link posts about their dogs...and remind the public that the dogs are stars in their own books and what wonderful Christmas gifts these books would make. So much of the posting on the Esther and Dan website is an attempt IMO to build a brand and then...monitize that brand. That’s why the social media is PUBLIC...open to all.

What’s odd is that interspersed with these marketing posts, particularly on Esthers page, are highly personal revelations....the kind of things one would only share with close friends. Why reveal any of this so publicly? I know many people who have an open page for a business where their life is glossed up and sugarcoated...and a second one locked down for just close friends and family, where the warts of life are revealed. IMO Not many people write (paraphrasing) “please consider buying this book...perfect present.” And then follow with a variation of “my life is in crisis.’

IMO Esther and Dan were not cautious private people prior to this event. Esther disappeared mysteriously and it is HER public social media...that she gave to us, the public...that we are perusing. She put this all in the public domain...why I don’t know. But she must have had her reasons...including wanting it publicly known. Furthermore, Dan must have seen the things she wrote. But they remained there for any one to read. And, if they cared to...anyone could discuss their private life just as we are doing here.

Esther and Dan must have known all this about a open social media page too. If I had followed one of their amazing videos to the Esther and Dan page, I would have been literally invited to comment on her personal struggles if I wished to.

Let’s keep that in mind.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I think it’s important to keep one unique aspect of this case in mind and that is this couples approach to social media. We all know people who use social media as a marketing tool for their business. Esther and Dan certainly did that. They invite readers to share their wonderful photos with others...that’s marketing to increase an audience. They link posts about their dogs...and remind the public that the dogs are stars in their own books and what wonderful Christmas gifts these books would make. So much of the posting on the Esther and Dan website is an attempt IMO to build a brand and them monitize that brand. That’s why the social media is PUBLIC...open to all.

What’s odd is that interspersed with these marketing posts are highly personal revelations....the kind of things one would only share with close friends. Why reveal any of this so publicly? I know many people who have an open page for a business where their life is glossed up and sugarcoated...and a second one locked down for just close friends and family, where the warts of life are revealed. Not many people write (paraphrasing) “please consider buying this book...perfect present.” And then follow with “my life is in crisis.’

Esther and Dan were not cautious private people prior to this event. Esther disappeared mysteriously and it is HER public social media...that she gave to us...that we are perusing. She put this all in the public domain...why I don’t know. But she must have had her reasons...including wanting it publicly known. Furthermore, Dan must have seen the things she wrote. But they remained there for any one to read. And, if they cared to...anyone could discuss their private life just as we are doing here.

Esther and Dan must have known that about a open social media page too.

Yeah I get it. But when one is probably dead and the other is grieving, is it still fair game?

Let’s also keep that in mind.

 

[stmarysmead]

Yeah I get it. But when one is probably dead and the other is grieving, is it still fair game?

Let’s also keep that in mind.

Its good to have you on this thread because your sensitivity is a welcome reminder. But you’ve probably been coming here for as many years as I have. There are broken hearts behind every thread. People still looking for their children. Senseless killings. There are grieving loved ones behind every crime or disappearance ...all over this page.

Why are we here?

‘I think most come here to look at the minutiae that maybe the investigation has over looked. We come here to try to help but also to understand.

Save the next girl. How? Maybe it’s accident prevention from certified experts. Maybe it’s clues to suicide prevention. Maybe it’s maps. Maybe it’s diet. Maybe it’s the consequences of childhood bullying. Yes, I do think it’s all fair game.

It’s different here. It’s not the flippant comments under the Daily Mail article.

But I still appreciate what you bring to the discussion.

 

[stmarysmead]

Unfortunately, there’s nothing we could talk about here that wouldn’t be painful to a grieving loved one. At least I can’t think of one. Just enumerate in your minds the possibilities of what’s behind this disappearance. I won’t list again the ways or why she might have died.

But the only two that have her alive are a cruel, heartless self planned disappearance. Or two months now in the control of some deranged person or persons.

No comfort there IMO.

 

[Puzzles]

There are too many legal repercussions if people are reported missing and there is no update when they are found. I don't believe that the EU announces missing people but does not announce that they are located. It has nothing to do with privacy.

Obviously the personal details of the disappearance are kept private, but a change in status from missing to located is not kept secret.

BBM and snipped for focus by me:

Hi otto, I'd be interested to learn the source of your confidence in believing media would be notified when a missing person had been found, if the missing person requested privacy.

I believe LE would only provide the changed status to whomever reported the person missing ie. the friend/family member.

Whether or not that friend/family member alerted media the person was no longer missing would be solely their decision.

Depending on the amount and type of prior published information about the case, it could be difficult – even devastating – for the friend/relative to undertake such disclosure. JMO


From the BBC: What happens when someone goes missing?

"If someone has elected to leave their friends and family… and we find them and they express this wish," says Miranda Napier, "then we would close the missing report and advise those making it that they were safe and well, but we would not be able to tell them where they were."

 

[Grouse]

There are too many legal repercussions if people are reported missing and there is no update when they are found. I don't believe that the EU announces missing people but does not announce that they are located. It has nothing to do with privacy.

For example, suppose Esther has a large student debt. If she is missing, that debt is handled differently than if she is missing and located. It can't be true that people can voluntarily disappear, with international headlines, reappear, and authorities keep that information secret.

Obviously the personal details of the disappearance are kept private, but a change in status from missing to located is not kept secret.

That makes sense to me. I did some brief searching and couldn't find anything about authorities in the EU not making public when a missing person is found. I guess in cases where there has been abuse it makes sense. But what about cases when alerts have been raised and missing person posters put out telling people to keep an eye out? Surely the public deserves to be told they no longer need to? I find it difficult to imagine it being suppressed in this case. It's not a scenario I would ever have considered to be honest. Are there any examples out there of this happening?

 

[otto]

BBM and snipped for focus by me:

Hi otto, I'd be interested to learn the source of your confidence in believing media would be notified when a missing person had been found, if the missing person requested privacy.

I believe LE would only provide the changed status to whomever reported the person missing ie. the friend/family member.

Whether or not that friend/family member alerted media the person was no longer missing would be solely their decision.

Depending on the amount and type of prior published information about the case, it could be difficult – even devastating – for the friend/relative to undertake such disclosure. JMO


From the BBC: What happens when someone goes missing?

"If someone has elected to leave their friends and family… and we find them and they express this wish," says Miranda Napier, "then we would close the missing report and advise those making it that they were safe and well, but we would not be able to tell them where they were."

Let's agree to disagree. I know that when a widely publicized missing person is located, police will publish that new information for a number of reasons. Anyone who wants to believe that police in Spain, France and the UK will hide information when a missing person is located is welcome to believe that.