Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

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  • #861
I have to say IME 40 minutes seems a long time to spend up there, especially when there is a need to press on to ensure shelter for the night. At the top of a snowy peak in winter (or even in summer if it's somewhere like Ben Nevis) I would usually spend 20 minutes max - have something to eat , savour the view, maybe take photos, and then get moving again as I find I soon start to cool down after the ascent.

However, that said, ED may simply have lingered because they hadn't spoken for 24 hours and she didn't know when they next would (it was only DC who discovered later she would have had signal again soon after leaving the refuge).

I see your point. But “because they hadn’t spoken in 24 hours and she didn’t know when they next would”...IMO it’s interesting that she only spent...literally only a few short minutes...out of almost 40 minutes there interacting with Dan.

The longest according to Dan was 1 minute 36 seconds. And we don’t know which one of them initiated that call.
I also wonder if...

16:04: “I’m heading off now...Maybe have signal but not sure. Sorry. I think I can see you !!!”

I wonder if after this text he texted her to ask for more information on her plans...where she planned to hike and she replied...

16:06: “Still in the same area. Tomorrow heading for Port de le Glere or something spelt like that. Might dip into France. Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can xx”
“Love you 🤬🤬🤬

Sort of vague answer IMO if my guess is correct.

And, edited to add, following that same line of guesswork...that vague answer might have prompted Dan to make an immediate What’s App call...that ended very quickly.
 
  • #862
I see your point. But “because they hadn’t spoken in 24 hours and she didn’t know when they next would”...IMO it’s interesting that she only spent...literally only a few short minutes...out of almost 40 minutes there interacting with Dan.

The longest according to Dan was 1 minute 36 seconds. And we don’t know which one of them initiated that call.
I also wonder if...

16:04: “I’m heading off now...Maybe have signal but not sure. Sorry. I think I can see you !!!”

I wonder if after this text he texted her to ask for more information on her plans...where she planned to hike and she replied...

16:06: “Still in the same area. Tomorrow heading for Port de le Glere or something spelt like that. Might dip into France. Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can xx”
“Love you 🤬🤬🤬

Sort of vague answer IMO if my guess is correct.

And, edited to add, following that same line of guesswork...that vague answer might have prompted Dan to make an immediate What’s App call...that ended very quickly.

Something I have been pondering, regarding the "I think I can see you now!!!"...seems to have a true air of excitement in as if she really had spotted said person, hence her seemingly to linger at the Pic De S. The comment seems at odds with the other messages which appear deliberately vague ie trying to manage DCs expectations that there won't be communication over the next few days deliberately, not due to mobile coverage. I know the phase has been debated previously, ie looking to France where DC was, but I'm wondering in the excitement of seeing said person did ED send that message accidentally to DC? , Easily done when running more than one conversation.did that prompt the call from DC which ED had to close down quickly. Is that perhaps why DC also favours 3rd party involvement ? Could this mystery person also be the person in ED motorhome, as yet unexplained, perhaps they needed to get something for ED that she forgot, assuming the keys were obtained voluntarily...its just a thought..
 
  • #863
I believe ED's disappearance was a suicide. I think she identified a majestic final resting spot in the Pyrenees while on her way down from the Pic de Sauvegarde on the afternoon of the 21st and on the morning of the 22nd. I do not think she wants her body to ever be found or recovered. Jmo.

I have listed several reasons below for why I think this may have happened (some of the reasons are in the form of a question). Again, all JMO. No item is intended to be an either/or proposition.

I also realize that any single reason alone might also apply in other "disappearance scenarios" - such as an accident/fall or foul play. I did not mention voluntary disappearance (off grid, or ran off to start a new life), and accidental shooting by hunters, as I think theses scenario are much less likely (jmo). It is rather the aggregate sum of the reasons listed (the preponderance of the evidence - a kind of a Bayesian probability approach) that has me convinced:

- Why did ED go back up the Pic again? There was no reason she didn't just continue on to the Refuge on the 21st (she certainly had more time then, than she had the 22nd)?

- What was she doing between summiting the Pic at around 1::30 pm on the 21st and when she returned at 3:30 pm on the 22nd? The hike distances were short. Was she scouting and preparing a spot?

- Why did she go up so late in the day on the 22nd, arriving a 3:30 pm and leaving at 4:10 pm - when she had so little daylight left to make it to Port Venasque and on to Refuge de Venasque? Was she ever really planning to go through Port de Venasque?

- Why (at the top) was it so important to her to let DC know happy she was? Even when someone seems happy, they rarely say over an over - especially on a text (I know, there are surely exceptions). And why so many 🤬🤬🤬's? And thanks. And..

-Why the FaceTime call after there already had been so much other communication over the preceding half hour?

- Why did she speak to her parents/family as well? Was that normal? Pre-arranged? Did she contact them from every Pic, Refuge, Col, Hospice, hike, etc.? Just wondering. Or was she, this time - in some way - saying "I love you" for the last time? Saying "goodbye", saying "I'm happy" and "it's not your fault"?

- Why did she text/exclaim (at least twice) to Dan when referencing the mountains and towns seen in the background of the vids/photos taken as she stood atop the Pic that: "I think I can can you" or "I can see you"? Could this possibly be because she woukdve also been aware, sub-consciously, of the feeling that - if she could see him, he could see her - and that she was worried that he might see - or sense - or feel - or in some way know - what she was maybe about to do? (all speculation)

- Why did she linger on top even when she should have been concerned about getting to the Refuge before dark. Even when she'd just been up top the day before? Yet she stayed at the Pic - to take it all in.

- Why did she seem to forewarn DC so many times that she was about to be out of cell signal range? Instead of this being a pre-excuse as to why she might not be able to contact DC, perhaps it was her way of making sure that DC didn't try to contact her for the next 8-10 hrs (and after that, she'd really out of range). She put the phone in airplane mode.

- Was ED wearing make up and her best gear the afternoon of the 22nd (only DC would know). Some will think that's a ridiculous or meaningless question, but I think it's a worthwhile one to ask)

- Why did she bring so little food? Was this perhaps because she was not expecting to ever need it?

- Why did she seem uncertain (almost casual) about whether there was even a winter room at Rescue Venasque? Wouldn't this information have been of extreme importantance to her?

Why was she so unbothered and nonchalant about not knowing how to spell Port de la Glere? This does not seem like her. Was she thinking that she would likely never be going to that place?

- There's no evidence that she was at Refuge de Venasque. Did she ever plan to go there?

- Why did she have such a blasé attitude about whether she might dip into France or not? Not that there's anything wrong with having uncertain/spontaneous plans - but this comment to me sounded somewhat apathetic.

- ED had been by herself now for quite some time. Alone and lonely, I imagine. She admitted she was going through a tough time just before leaving to go on the solo trip, and acknowledged that she needed to do some soul searching. She was crying while running and listening to the same song over and over. It was a song about life.

ED had been seriously depressed before. Covid was here, and the excursion lifestyle might be ending. The witness in the store (albeit in a short encounter) described her as sad. It's weird what people pick up on.. Isolation can lead to loneliness and depression. Being alone can sometimes give you too much time to think. It does me.

- She disappeared at the very end of this soul searching journey/trek. She was due to return in just two days. IF (if) she had been contemplating suicide on the trip, she realistically would've only had one day left on which to do so. She was atop Pic de Sauvegarde.

- If there had been an accident, I think they would have found evidence of it by now. I don't think ED's been found because I don't think she wanted to be found. I think she is in a beautiful, serene, majestic spot in the Pyrenees - one that is perhaps way off trail, and very hidden.

All just my opinion.

I pray for DC and for ED's family. No matter what has happened, it is a great loss, and it is incredibly sad.

Nice summary! Investigators would have added up all of these points as well and arrived at the same conclusion that voluntary disappearance cannot be ruled out.

January 9, 2021

"Mr Colegate dismissed the theory that that his partner could have 'voluntarily disappeared' because she was unhappy in their relationship.

This theory was put forward by French Captain Jean-Marc Bordinaro in December, who has been leading the investigation into Ms Dingley. He told The Times that officers were unable to dismiss 'the theory of a voluntary disappearance'.
Boyfriend of Briton who vanished in Pyrenees rubbishes claim she was unhappy in their relationship | Daily Mail Online
 
  • #864
Something I have been pondering, regarding the "I think I can see you now!!!"...seems to have a true air of excitement in as if she really had spotted said person, hence her seemingly to linger at the Pic De S. The comment seems at odds with the other messages which appear deliberately vague ie trying to manage DCs expectations that there won't be communication over the next few days deliberately, not due to mobile coverage. I know the phase has been debated previously, ie looking to France where DC was, but I'm wondering in the excitement of seeing said person did ED send that message accidentally to DC? , Easily done when running more than one conversation.did that prompt the call from DC which ED had to close down quickly. Is that perhaps why DC also favours 3rd party involvement ? Could this mystery person also be the person in ED motorhome, as yet unexplained, perhaps they needed to get something for ED that she forgot, assuming the keys were obtained voluntarily...its just a thought..

It's certainly possible. I assumed the comment was along the lines of Esther at the top of the world looking down into France and joking that she could see him.

It's odd that she says the same thing two days in a row.

21st November
10:07 – Leaves the motorhome - “Now going to try hitching”
10:08 – Sends Dan photographs of her map to specify the area she will be hiking in.
10:35 – “2 hitches so far – halfway!”
13:11 – Reaches the top of Pic de Sauvegarde. “So happy….think I can see you” “That’s bagneres and super bagneres” “Love you so much 🤬🤬🤬 thank you for encouraging me and giving me this confidence…Really appreciated all the msgs to get me on my way this morning”
Evening
Spends the night alone at Cabana de la Besurtas on the Spanish side (Esther had no phone signal once she left the peak, but she confirmed this the following day when she returned to Pic de Sauvegarde).​

22nd November
15:29 – Returns to Pic de Sauvegarde
15:31 – “Not much signal in this area sorry” “I’m on a col/peak so can’t stop for too long but wanted you to know. Can’t wait to read all your messages. Thank you 🤬🤬🤬. “Love you very much 🤬🤬🤬 having a really good time.”
15:41 – Sends 2 selfies.
16:04: “I’m heading off now…Maybe have signal but not sure. Sorry. I think I can see you !!!”
16:06: “Still in the same area. Tomorrow heading for Port de le Glere or something spelt like that. Might dip into France. Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can xx” “Love you 🤬🤬🤬
16:07 – Video Call with Dan lasting for 1:36
Dossier
 
  • #865
It's certainly possible. I assumed the comment was along the lines of Esther at the top of the world looking down into France and joking that she could see him.

It's odd that she says the same thing two days in a row.

21st November
10:07 – Leaves the motorhome - “Now going to try hitching”
10:08 – Sends Dan photographs of her map to specify the area she will be hiking in.
10:35 – “2 hitches so far – halfway!”
13:11 – Reaches the top of Pic de Sauvegarde. “So happy….think I can see you” “That’s bagneres and super bagneres” “Love you so much 🤬🤬🤬 thank you for encouraging me and giving me this confidence…Really appreciated all the msgs to get me on my way this morning”
Evening
Spends the night alone at Cabana de la Besurtas on the Spanish side (Esther had no phone signal once she left the peak, but she confirmed this the following day when she returned to Pic de Sauvegarde).​

22nd November
15:29 – Returns to Pic de Sauvegarde
15:31 – “Not much signal in this area sorry” “I’m on a col/peak so can’t stop for too long but wanted you to know. Can’t wait to read all your messages. Thank you 🤬🤬🤬. “Love you very much 🤬🤬🤬 having a really good time.”
15:41 – Sends 2 selfies.
16:04: “I’m heading off now…Maybe have signal but not sure. Sorry. I think I can see you !!!”
16:06: “Still in the same area. Tomorrow heading for Port de le Glere or something spelt like that. Might dip into France. Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can xx” “Love you 🤬🤬🤬
16:07 – Video Call with Dan lasting for 1:36
Dossier
That's a good point, I'd forgotten ED had used that phrase previously. Perhaps they have "named" peaks or points after each other, something personal between themselves that only they understood. Im thinking the accident/lake or voluntary disappearance appear the most feasible explanations based on the given facts.
 
  • #866
If Esther had been found alive, there would not be recent articles about her disappearance.

Monday January 18 2021

Missing hiker Esther Dingley had relationship problems, witness tells police | News | The Times
Hi otto, this article appears to repeat information previously reported, rather than offer any new details.
Also, when missing persons are found, and request privacy, their status is not released to the media. At least, that is the case in Australia. I believe I posted that information upthread.
 
  • #867
Hi otto, this article appears to repeat information previously reported, rather than offer any new details.
Also, when missing persons are found, and request privacy, their status is not released to the media. At least, that is the case in Australia. I believe I posted that information upthread.

Quite often, when a missing person has been located, no personal information is released - just an announcement. I've never heard of a missing person having been found and the public is misled to believe that the individual is still missing.

Melissa Caddick is missing in Australia. I'm pretty sure that if she is located, it will be publicly announced.
 
  • #868
It's certainly possible. I assumed the comment was along the lines of Esther at the top of the world looking down into France and joking that she could see him.

It's odd that she says the same thing two days in a row.

21st November
10:07 – Leaves the motorhome - “Now going to try hitching”
10:08 – Sends Dan photographs of her map to specify the area she will be hiking in.
10:35 – “2 hitches so far – halfway!”
13:11 – Reaches the top of Pic de Sauvegarde. “So happy….think I can see you” “That’s bagneres and super bagneres” “Love you so much 🤬🤬🤬 thank you for encouraging me and giving me this confidence…Really appreciated all the msgs to get me on my way this morning”
Evening
Spends the night alone at Cabana de la Besurtas on the Spanish side (Esther had no phone signal once she left the peak, but she confirmed this the following day when she returned to Pic de Sauvegarde).​

22nd November
15:29 – Returns to Pic de Sauvegarde
15:31 – “Not much signal in this area sorry” “I’m on a col/peak so can’t stop for too long but wanted you to know. Can’t wait to read all your messages. Thank you 🤬🤬🤬. “Love you very much 🤬🤬🤬 having a really good time.”
15:41 – Sends 2 selfies.
16:04: “I’m heading off now…Maybe have signal but not sure. Sorry. I think I can see you !!!”
16:06: “Still in the same area. Tomorrow heading for Port de le Glere or something spelt like that. Might dip into France. Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can xx” “Love you 🤬🤬🤬
16:07 – Video Call with Dan lasting for 1:36
Dossier
The best word I can think of is: wistful
 
  • #869
<snipped and BBM>
I see your point. But “because they hadn’t spoken in 24 hours and she didn’t know when they next would”...IMO it’s interesting that she only spent...literally only a few short minutes...out of almost 40 minutes there interacting with Dan.

That's not true; we don't know how long they interacted. From the dossier (BBM) "Selected messages received from Esther are quoted below to indicate the times she set out, the times she subsequently reached Pic de Sauvegarde on both days and her happiness at the time."
 
  • #870
Really interesting post!! making me think a lot!! Sorry lost quote and am referring to Palemaiden’ s post!
 
  • #871
All good points that cause me surprise that LE supported his (understandable) decision to search at the same time. I believe they communicated with each other during the search but LE are the experts re any propitious signs. Too late once they're trampled over.
It's unclear to me that "LE supported [DC's] ... decision". My reading of the text where this is presented is that they did not. IIRC they used the phrase, "[DC] prefers", and DC's search was definitely not coordinated with LE. Indeed, they overtly separate their search from whatever DC is doing and they seem to have no specific idea where he is.

Referring to the gendarme:

He said that Colegate, also from Durham, was also searching the mountain and had retraced Dingley’s route but was not with the rescue teams.

“He prefers to walk on his own,” the gendarme said.


Guardian Article
 
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  • #872
That's not true; we don't know how long they interacted. From the dossier (BBM) "Selected messages received from Esther are quoted below to indicate the times she set out, the times she subsequently reached Pic de Sauvegarde on both days and her happiness at the time."
Good point, Grouse. In fact, we know from the Dossier that ED "Spends the night alone at Cabana de la Besurtas on the Spanish side (Esther had no phone signal once she left the peak, but she confirmed this the following day when she returned to Pic de Sauvegarde)" BBM. But at what point in the interaction between ED and DC on 22/11 was this confirmed? It could have been during the short video chat before she disappeared, or as you say, there may be ED texts to DC missing from this dossier.

It sure would be helpful to have the full text exchange between the ED and DC on 22/11 - what information was conveyed that might not show "her happiness at the time"? I am sure LE has that information, including any texts ED may have sent to / received from other people. That full story would be most informative to this investigation!
 
  • #873
Given the posts alluding to possible naive attitude on the part of ED especially with regard to requests for food, one thing we do know is that she has been with Dan since she was 18.

That in modern times is pretty rare.

I am not poking into anything in particular, other than maybe she needed a change, a break, wanted a child..

am just supposing.

And how does she go about leaving this supposedly idyllic life they have built?

All in my imagination and IMO

Something I have been pondering, regarding the "I think I can see you now!!!"...seems to have a true air of excitement in as if she really had spotted said person, hence her seemingly to linger at the Pic De S. The comment seems at odds with the other messages which appear deliberately vague ie trying to manage DCs expectations that there won't be communication over the next few days deliberately, not due to mobile coverage. I know the phase has been debated previously, ie looking to France where DC was, but I'm wondering in the excitement of seeing said person did ED send that message accidentally to DC? , Easily done when running more than one conversation.did that prompt the call from DC which ED had to close down quickly. Is that perhaps why DC also favours 3rd party involvement ? Could this mystery person also be the person in ED motorhome, as yet unexplained, perhaps they needed to get something for ED that she forgot, assuming the keys were obtained voluntarily...its just a thought..

I do think these points are relevant to a female of Esther’s age. I don’t think anyone’s life can be idyllic, actually. Most people have positive and negative factors in their lives. I do think that late thirties, for a female, can be a time when you consider what you’d like to have in your life that isn’t already there. Is the relationship you are currently in going to provide that? If not, then how do you go about making upheavals? If you are even slightly sensitive in character then that will be a big deal!
 
  • #874
Quite often, when a missing person has been located, no personal information is released - just an announcement. I've never heard of a missing person having been found and the public is misled to believe that the individual is still missing.

Melissa Caddick is missing in Australia. I'm pretty sure that if she is located, it will be publicly announced.

BBM

Hi otto, you so often bring us much practical information, but I suggest the above post isn't a logical argument.
If the public isn't told a missing person has been found, it is certain we would have "never heard of a missing person having been found..." – unless we happened to know them personally, and were told they had been found, by LE.
Also, media repeating old articles about a missing person need not be an attempt to mislead the public. Rather, it is unlikely the media have been informed the missing person has been found, if LE's intention is to withhold that information from the public.
 
  • #875
Could this mystery person also be the person in ED motorhome, as yet unexplained, perhaps they needed to get something for ED that she forgot, assuming the keys were obtained voluntarily...its just a thought..

Didn't LE confirm it was one of their people in the van?
 
  • #876
In the U.K. if you report someone missing you will be told if they are found. This is from the police handbook. I would imagine European law is similar.

Police officers must be mindful that when an adult missing person is located, their whereabouts must not be disclosed to others if this is against their wishes. The police should inform the person who reported them missing that they have been located.


Missing person investigations
 
  • #877
That's a good point, I'd forgotten ED had used that phrase previously. Perhaps they have "named" peaks or points after each other, something personal between themselves that only they understood. Im thinking the accident/lake or voluntary disappearance appear the most feasible explanations based on the given facts.

Ah, Palemaiden, that's a razor-sharp thought to explain ED's "I think I can see you."

I look forward to more from your mind :)
 
  • #878
It's unclear to me that "LE supported [DC's] ... decision". My reading of the text where this is presented is that they did not. IIRC they used the phrase, "[DC] prefers", and DC's search was definitely not coordinated with LE. Indeed, they overtly separate their search from whatever DC is doing and they seem to have no specific idea where he is.

Referring to the gendarme:

He said that Colegate, also from Durham, was also searching the mountain and had retraced Dingley’s route but was not with the rescue teams.

“He prefers to walk on his own,” the gendarme said.


Guardian Article
Maybe not coordinated exactly, in terms of 'we'll search this area, you search that area', we don't know whether or not they objected, but............
From DCs info pack:-

Esther’s partner Dan, was in close communication with both the French and Spanish search teams on a daily basis, providing information on Esther’s preferences, ability, hiking pace and communication habits. He also walked and searched the hillsides around all of the trails in the immediate area of Esther’s last known location on the French side (walking alone so he could continue outside of standard SAR hours).
 
  • #879
Hi RedHaus, sorry I can't go with that theory I'm afraid. Her missing possessions would surely have been apparent when LE searched the van and would have sent the investigation in a different direction. And to disappear voluntarily and leave all your stuff, and not let your family know? I know that sometimes can happen but seems very unlikely in this case IMO.
When I came up with that idea, I had a little different scenario. If I were going up the Pic, I would drop off my full pack at the Port, perhaps taking the lid with a few necessities including water. Unladen, I could scamper up the Pic quick as a whip. With those exposures, this would have been a lot safer because balance would be better, too. For me, it would be a matter of moving unencumbered. I'd be up there 5 minutes, and scamper back down.
I'd also have absolutely zero interest in making the Pic climb solo.

But I also don't think ED took all the equipment listed in the dossier. Plus, I think she took other items not on the list. MANY other items. Note: there are no socks on the list (there should have been 2 pairs in the pack) and the blue tarp she carries (which would be absolutely essential) was also not on the list.
I believe the dossier equipment list is the couple's standard "packing list", organized on a spreadsheet with weights; it doesn't represent final realities, though. A list like this is often prepared while in the planning stage to satisfy yourself that your pack is a reasonable weight. How do I know? Because whoever wrote the list didn't weigh the sundries. Without the sundries, the list is wishful thinking, not reality. Been there, done that.
Are you aware, for instance, that a UK passport weighs 2.7 ounces? That even if you take a cut-off toothbrush and half a sample-size toothpaste, you're at about 3 oz? Toilet paper, even if you remove the cardboard roll, maybe 2 oz and then you'd likely put it in a baggie, and that would be another 1/2 oz. A few coins, a few bills, credit cards, baggie for those, first aid, matches, lighter..........! Tent weights don't include stakes or guys or the stuff sack, either, so you have to add those.
The gear list looks exactly like a pre-planning spreadsheet.
Anyway, in the pre-planning stage, weight spreadsheets are reassuring. They are also a competitive venture (people brag about their low pack weights). But when you get to the trailhead, your spreadsheet is DEFINITELY not reality, as you will figure out a couple of steps after hoisting the pack.
Short story, if she took the whole list, ED's pack likely had 5 lbs more weight than listed (if she followed protocol and accounted for a solo winter trip, maybe even more), plus food and water, and we haven't had any statement one way or the other about equipment left behind. I don't think we can assume she took everything.
*****
When I'm doing a pack fit for someone, I put weight in the pack so I can tell how the pack is sitting on their body. I regard this as essential. I check how they move and what they unconsciously fiddle with when it's on (to figure out if I can adjust it out). I never, ever, ever tell the person how much weight I put in the pack, though, because they'd have a heart attack. Almost invariably, they think the pack weighs 25-30 lbs. Actually, I only add about 10. LMAO.

At any rate, another reason I don't think ED took all the equipment on the dossier list: from the way it sits on her body, her pack is not heavy enough to contain all that weight.
 
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  • #880
That's not true; we don't know how long they interacted. From the dossier (BBM) "Selected messages received from Esther are quoted below to indicate the times she set out, the times she subsequently reached Pic de Sauvegarde on both days and her happiness at the time."
Now that you've highlighted "selected", I wonder what we're missing?
 
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