Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #5

[Ruthbullock]

When you're wearing a full overnight pack, it would not at all occur to you that it would float. Trust me on this....

I blame Bear Grylls for that, but you are probably right.

 

[Grouse]

My mind keeps dragging me back to that comment she made about taking "a dip into France." (Paraphrasing).
Wouldn't be surprised if she was found much lower on the mountain on that side, perhaps just a short distance off the trail. IMO

Just by making it to the Refuge de Venasque later that afternoon, her planned destination for that night, she would have already made a dip into France, which does make ED's "might dip into France" (BBM) comment seem a bit strange.

 

[sarahboirin]

Hi @annpats. I agree with you. I don't want to belabor this point, but I do think its important for us sleuthers to have some facts about suicide-by-drowning in hand.

"According to the CDC, more than 44,000 people commit suicide each year in the U.S., with firearms and suffocation as the leading causes. Just over 1 percent of suicides are attributed to drowning, and in 2015, 509 people killed themselves this way, CDC numbers show."

There may be more scientific journals to quote from, but in my haste (dinner time!) I was able to at least find this factoid, albeit old numbers.

Source: Suicide by drowning uncommon but does happen, investigators say

With respect, people commit suicide using the means they have available to them. Firearms are more readily available in the US and are more often used. If that was Esther's intention, and we don't know this, she would have used the means available to her, so drowning has to be considered IMO

 

[RedHaus]

With respect, people commit suicide using the means they have available to them. Firearms are more readily available in the US and are more often used. If that was Esther's intention, and we don't know this, she would have used the means available to her, so drowning has to be considered IMO

Yes, @sarahboirin, we are in agreement.

I was trying to make the point that people do sadly commit suicide by drowning and it is a meaningful proportion of all suicides.

 

[19thcenturynovel]

"Dip into France" seems like a rather ghoulish joke to make if she was contemplating such a course of action (drowning in the lake). People with suicidal intentions don't always reveal their depressed state of mind and in fact, can appear happy prior to the event because they have already made the decision. But why would she commit suicide? She was a well educated, attractive woman who could have built another future for herself. If she felt stifled by the relationship, she had a supportive family back home where she could have sought temporary refuge. She wasn't a person out of options. If she had succumbed to actual depression then that can play cruel tricks with the mind. On the basis of what I've read, she doesn't sound like someone with depression, so suicide just doesn't add up in my mind. I could be wildly wrong.

 

[RedHaus]

"On the basis of what I've read, she doesn't sound like someone with depression, so suicide just doesn't add up in my mind. I could be wildly wrong.

Snipped for focus
Welcome @19thcenturynovel to Websleuths! We were all new at one point.

Everyone's perspective is meaningful, even if we don't all agree. If we all agreed then this wouldn't be sleuthing, right?

That said, since you are new to this case and have formed an opinion about whether ED was suicidal, I encourage you to carefully review our 8 months of discussion over 5 threads. There have been many of us who have dissected a slew of data points and concluded ED could have been suicidal and that she could have been suffering from a major depressive episode in October / November 2020. Of course we can never diagnosis someone and we may never know if she was, but there is a lot to consider.

If you haven't done so already, an easy way to focus on past WS discussions regarding a topic in the ED case, such as "suicide", is to search each of the 5 threads for the word suicide and then read each of the posts that come up from that search. I just ran a search for each thread (see below for an image of the utility I used).

The following is a summary of ED posts that mention the word "suicide":

• Thread #1: 15
• Thread #2: 2
• Thread #3*: 46
• Thread #4: 59
• Thread #5: 44 (so far)

TOTAL: 166
​

Those 166 posts include a rich discussion of the facts as we know them. And I believe it represents a fairly balanced discussion with all sorts of opinions on the matter. Once you review our past discussions and perhaps review the primary data on your own (e.g. ED's and ED/DC's FB posts going back to September / October, 2020), let us know what you think. And I want to be clear, that IMO, this is just one of several possible outcomes for poor ED. I remain open to many different scenarios.

* It was in Thread #3 when we broke the ice and started openly discussing the possibility ED committed suicide... it took a leap of faith that WS would let us. So if you had to prioritize due to time constraints, I'd suggest the 46 posts in Thread #3 may be the most productive to read.

 

[19thcenturynovel]

Snipped for focus
Welcome @19thcenturynovel to Websleuths! We were all new at one point.

Everyone's perspective is meaningful, even if we don't all agree. If we all agreed then this wouldn't be sleuthing, right?

That said, since you are new to this case and have formed an opinion about whether ED was suicidal, I encourage you to carefully review our 8 months of discussion over 5 threads. There have been many of us who have dissected a slew of data points and concluded ED could have been suicidal and that she could have been suffering from a major depressive episode in October / November 2020. Of course we can never diagnosis someone and we may never know if she was, but there is a lot to consider.

If you haven't done so already, an easy way to focus on past WS discussions regarding a topic in the ED case, such as "suicide", is to search each of the 5 threads for the word suicide and then read each of the posts that come up from that search. I just ran a search for each thread (see below for an image of the utility I used).
Thank you, RedHaus. I guess I've got some homework to do and I'm sad to hear of that possiblity.
The following is a summary of ED posts that mention the word "suicide":

• Thread #1: 15
• Thread #2: 2
• Thread #3*: 46
• Thread #4: 59
• Thread #5: 44 (so far)

TOTAL: 166
​

Those 166 posts include a rich discussion of the facts as we know them. And I believe it represents a fairly balanced discussion with all sorts of opinions on the matter. Once you review our past discussions and perhaps review the primary data on your own (e.g. ED's and ED/DC's FB posts going back to September / October, 2020), let us know what you think. And I want to be clear, that IMO, this is just one of several possible outcomes for poor ED. I remain open to many different scenarios.

* It was in Thread #3 when we broke the ice and started openly discussing the possibility ED committed suicide... it took a leap of faith that WS would let us. So if you had to prioritize due to time constraints, I'd suggest the 46 posts in Thread #3 may be the most productive to read.

View attachment 305372

 

[19thcenturynovel]

Still finding my way around here. Thank you, RedHaus.

 

[Inspectormotive]

I still dont think she suicided and I keep coming back to Dan's surprise that he could get a signal up there when esther had told him otherwise.

She appeared reluctant to return as she kept delaying it. Dont care what she said to Dan about missing him. Her actions did not match her words.

 

[drama_farmer]

My mind keeps dragging me back to that comment she made about taking "a dip into France." (Paraphrasing).
Wouldn't be surprised if she was found much lower on the mountain on that side, perhaps just a short distance off the trail. IMO

I still dont think she suicided and I keep coming back to Dan's surprise that he could get a signal up there when esther had told him otherwise.

She appeared reluctant to return as she kept delaying it. Dont care what she said to Dan about missing him. Her actions did not match her words.

That piece of info pricked up my ears, as well. He was surprised he could get a signal... Was it because Esther said she couldn't? Maybe she just wanted a break from having to respond. If I want to put distance between myself and a loved one (for a myriad of reasons) I'd rather be more spontaneous about digital communication, and could imagine fibbing that I couldn't reply due to circumstances beyond my control. IMO

 

[Puzzles]

"Dip into France" seems like a rather ghoulish joke to make if she was contemplating such a course of action (drowning in the lake). People with suicidal intentions don't always reveal their depressed state of mind and in fact, can appear happy prior to the event because they have already made the decision. But why would she commit suicide? She was a well educated, attractive woman who could have built another future for herself. If she felt stifled by the relationship, she had a supportive family back home where she could have sought temporary refuge. She wasn't a person out of options. If she had succumbed to actual depression then that can play cruel tricks with the mind. On the basis of what I've read, she doesn't sound like someone with depression, so suicide just doesn't add up in my mind. I could be wildly wrong.

Welcome to WS, @19thcenturynovel,

Our Redhaus has written so clearly of earlier discussions about the possibility Esther suffered from depression, and perhaps wanted to leave this realm, yet a particular sensitivity of mine demands that I also respond to your words.

My intention is not to censure you, but rather suggest another viewpoint. I do so believing it may be of value in some unknown, present or future experience of someone who may read this.

Please consider the fact that well educated, attractive women (and men, and children) do choose to end their lives, notwithstanding a wealth of options available to them.

We cannot ever be certain whether or not another being is irretrievably lost in their own dark time.

 

[NoSI]

Welcome to WS, @19thcenturynovel,

Our Redhaus has written so clearly of earlier discussions about the possibility Esther suffered from depression, and perhaps wanted to leave this realm, yet a particular sensitivity of mine demands that I also respond to your words.

My intention is not to censure you, but rather suggest another viewpoint. I do so believing it may be of value in some unknown, present or future experience of someone who may read this.

Please consider the fact that well educated, attractive women (and men, and children) do choose to end their lives, notwithstanding a wealth of options available to them.

We cannot ever be certain whether or not another being is irretrievably lost in their own dark time.

Well said, @Puzzles! Depression does not discriminate... Family, friends, beauty, wealth, career mean nothing at that point... It's all about making the pain stop... It's about relief. A person may put on a brave face, but emotionally are in that much pain that they look upon suicide as the only way out.

 

[19thcenturynovel]

I agree that anyone can be struck by depression and end their own life and sadly, this has happened to more than one person in my own family. There are risk factors involved arising from social, psychological and biological factors. However, people who have gone through adverse life events are more likely to develop it.

 

[stmarysmead]

I took a break from this thread and has hoped that Esther would be found when I returned. I have great sympathy for Dan but I also feel frustration with his public statements. I’m reminded of a lyric from a sing…”What’s too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget.”

He seems obsessed with his own narrative…which might, under ordinary circumstances, be harmless. But in this case, his insistence on HIS interpretati0n of their relationship, her route, her plans, her words and her actions…as if her autonomy and her emotions were his possessions…is most unhelpful IMO.

 

[Konstantin]

I took a break from this thread and has hoped that Esther would be found when I returned. I have great sympathy for Dan but I also feel frustration with his public statements. I’m reminded of a lyric from a sing…”What’s too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget.”

He seems obsessed with his own narrative…which might, under ordinary circumstances, be harmless. But in this case, his insistence on HIS interpretati0n of their relationship, her route, her plans, her words and her actions…as if her autonomy and her emotions were his possessions…is most unhelpful IMO.

yes, he is very keen to set out his version of what happened. The “dossier” is him explaining that he and ED were happy and there were no issues. He was happy to release selected text messages from ED to help paint this picture.

but this is at odds with what other witnesses have said — the woman who claims ED told her she was having some sort of issues with her relationship, the police statement that things were not as rosy as social media made out.
I can understand why Dan would want to do this — not because he is involved in EDs disappearance as he clearly can’t be but because he is the last known person to talk to her, he clearly didn’t want their relationship to end even if ED may have had other views and he is stuck with ambiguous loss of his long term partner. He may feel guilty that he encouraged her to go on the hike so that leads him to convince himself that it was not dangerous.

The reality is we don’t know what ED said to him or what the actual situation with their relationship was from her perspective.

Also regarding the BBC interview — it was most likely some days if not weeks before it was posted online. It’s not breaking news that’s time sensitive it’s a filler piece for a magazine so they tend to hang on to those until there’s a space for them if that makes sense (I used to be a journalist so that’s where my hunch comes from on this). They probably didn’t know it was going out until just before it did. So it’s most likely a complete coincidence that ED went missing the same day. Unless D told her when they spoke on the summit and the pressure of that perfect image of their happy life just got to her and she lost concentration. Who knows.

 

[fridaybaker]

For experienced hikers/climbers out there, how likely is it, in your opinion, that should ED have had an accident, none of her belongings would have been found, even some ways off trail? I would imagine that the areas surrounding the expected trail would have been searched. No yellow tent? Nothing?

My question is: Does this likely mean that they are searching in the wrong area -that she went another way than to the Refuge de Venasque, etc.- or is it still fairly likely that her remains/belongings are tucked away in brush, etc.

I just find that lack of any trace of her or any of her belongings -not a shoe, pole, etc., amazing. But maybe that's my inexperience talking.

 

[Grouse]

For experienced hikers/climbers out there, how likely is it, in your opinion, that should ED have had an accident, none of her belongings would have been found, even some ways off trail? I would imagine that the areas surrounding the expected trail would have been searched. No yellow tent? Nothing?

My question is: Does this likely mean that they are searching in the wrong area -that she went another way than to the Refuge de Venasque, etc.- or is it still fairly likely that her remains/belongings are tucked away in brush, etc.

I just find that lack of any trace of her or any of her belongings -not a shoe, pole, etc., amazing. But maybe that's my inexperience talking.

Pretty sure it's been covered up-thread that quite a number of hikers have disappeared without any trace in the Pyrenees over the years, some found many years later. I am a moderately experienced hiker so, without wanting to steal the thunder of the more experienced resident hikers who will be able to give more detail, I would just venture to suggest it's a strong possibility that she, or any belongings, might not be found for a long time.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Pretty sure it's been covered up-thread that quite a number of hikers have disappeared without any trace in the Pyrenees over the years, some found many years later. I am a moderately experienced hiker so, without wanting to steal the thunder of the more experienced resident hikers who will be able to give more detail, I would just venture to suggest it's a strong possibility that she, or any belongings, might not be found for a long time.

See I believe most hikers who are not found are day hikers, not overnight or adverse weather hikers. I don’t believe she had poles, so wouldn’t expect them to be found, but she has shown in previous photographs a waterproof wrap over the backpack which would tear or come loose, likewise she wasn’t wearing thick clothing- so that would surely tear leave remains. The only reason it wouldn’t be seen is within a shortfall behind rocks.

 

[capitola51]

For experienced hikers/climbers out there, how likely is it, in your opinion, that should ED have had an accident, none of her belongings would have been found, even some ways off trail? I would imagine that the areas surrounding the expected trail would have been searched. No yellow tent? Nothing?

My question is: Does this likely mean that they are searching in the wrong area -that she went another way than to the Refuge de Venasque, etc.- or is it still fairly likely that her remains/belongings are tucked away in brush, etc.

I just find that lack of any trace of her or any of her belongings -not a shoe, pole, etc., amazing. But maybe that's my inexperience talking.

Sadly, hikers disappear all the time. When the reason is found, it’s nearly always something small. A hiker stepped off the Appalachian trail for a bathroom break, could not find the trail, got disoriented, and was recovered 14 days later 7 miles away. Just over a week ago, an experienced ultra-marathon runner ran out onto an easy set of trails in Pleasanton California and they are still searching as I write, a frustrated SAR captain remarked “We should have found him by now”.
There is always a common theme to disappearances - the hiker fails to realize that they are in danger. There is hardly ever a single drastic accident event - it is more like a chain of events where trivial, seemingly unimportant things happen, until the last link in the chain fails, and then there is a sudden transition into a survival situation where the hiker may not even realize that they are in. Truncating that thought to shorten the post, but happy to talk about the ED chain more if you encourage me.
To do a thorough search you need to have a line of people so close together that they can touch hands, walk over an area slowly, closely examining the ground in front of them. This type is usually done at or near a crime scene. The SAR searching is focused within areas thought to be ‘most likely’ based on an evaluation of last known position and planned route with the emphasis on fast execution rather than detailed examination and I say that with the greatest respect to SAR personnel who make brilliant tradeoffs to get hikers located and rescued.
For ED the last known position was Pic Sauvergarde and we are certain of that. We know the planned route was to go to the Refuge Venasque via Port Venasque.
That route goes close to the Boum de Port, a 146 foot deep alpine lake, which as far as I know has not been fully searched. It would be great if it was fully searched, while we have the good summer weather, with some sort of underwater ROV with lights, or possibly side scan sonar, not to find ED, but to eliminate the lake completely as a final destination. That would be a game changer.

 

[Grouse]

See I believe most hikers who are not found are day hikers, not overnight or adverse weather hikers. I don’t believe she had poles, so wouldn’t expect them to be found, but she has shown in previous photographs a waterproof wrap over the backpack which would tear or come loose, likewise she wasn’t wearing thick clothing- so that would surely tear leave remains. The only reason it wouldn’t be seen is within a shortfall behind rocks.

If her rucksack is anything like mine, the hi-vis waterproof cover is probably only out when it's actually raining, the rest of the time it's zipped inside a pocket.

But she did have walking poles --> Login • Instagram