Spitballing on intent

[BBB167893]

perhaps a thread (after this one appears to be done)on the intent of the head injury would be a good idea? JAT.No rush,but I've always wondered if it was truly an accident,or was there intent to kill behind it.

One thing at a time, JMO8778.

 

[Sophie]

If I thought it would do any good.

But here goes:

A true garrote is a cord (rope, wire, whatever) with a handle on each end. Its design allows it to be quickly thrown over the head and tightened around the neck quickly. It's fast, silent and efficient. That's what makes it so useful for Mafia executioners and special ops teams and terrorists.

The ligature here is essentially a glorified noose. It would take a little bit to make, depending on skill level. Once applied, it would not be easily removed, unlike a true garrote, which is designed to be removed as quickly as it was put on so you can move on to your next target.

Ty Dave: you're a star!

I wonder whether the forensics guys checked the fabrics in the ligature to see whether their tensile strength showed anything about the degree to which they'd been twisted etc? (I'm not wording this properly, physics and I having a mutual avoidance pact).

 

[BBB167893]

Ty Dave: you're a star!

Thank You. But only here.

I wonder whether the forensics guys checked the fabrics in the ligature to see whether their tensile strength showed anything about the degree to which they'd been twisted etc? (I'm not wording this properly, physics and I having a mutual avoidance pact).

Good question! I've never heard one way or the other.

 

[madeleine]

not to change the subject (just a quick comment)..IMO,since JB had the head injury (which seems to have occurred bf the garrote was applied),and JR had a mark on his face,and Patsy had nothing on her,(at least nothing visible)..from that I would deduce that Patsy was the one who held the weapon (the flashlight,IMO) and inflicted the head injury.And JR got in between them somehow.JAT.

What mark?Wow this is new to me,can I have more details pretty please.

 

[madeleine]

There was some sexual abuse going on and someone was afraid that she was going to tell all. In fact, if memory serves, one of the journalists on this case spoke to a classmate who claimed that JBR died because 'she was going to tell the secret.' (Or words to that effect).

Someone needed attention and how better to get attention than by your child being murdered/kidnapped? Sort of a radical Munchausens by Proxy.


In the realm of the Twilight Zone, but if a Ramsey had been some sort of religious fanatic, maybe JBR was sacrificed to pay for Patsy's return to health. I can't see this in a million years but I know it has been posited by one or two people....

Didn't know where to put this but then I remembered you mentioned religion in your post.

http://www.enewhope.org/nhn/nhn-player.php?resourceid=48

JR says :" I prayed for this person(the killer) without knowing who it is.God loves him too and seeks his heart".



I mean.....okay,maybe I am not THAT religious .....and someone more religious than me has to explain this to me......All this is nice in theory and I understand that sometimes it's easier to think like this,okay I forgive,I need some peace of mind BUT FGS this person he's praying for sexually assaulted and garroted his little girl.Not only that but put him and his family through hell for all those many years.Or is he only trying to "explain" his lack of anger.

There IS a limit,right?Religious or not.I'm surprised they didn't say they even feel sorry for the "guy" because he must have had a troubled childhood or something.

And Patsy saying she heard a holy voice saying "Patsy Ramsey,you NEED Christmas!"
Dunno,to me it sounds like her selfish alter ego was telling her that.Aww,don't feel bad for partying,it's okay if you find something symbolic in it.

 

[Sophie]

Didn't know where to put this but then I remembered you mentioned religion in your post.

http://www.enewhope.org/nhn/nhn-player.php?resourceid=48

JR says :" I prayed for this person(the killer) without knowing who it is.God loves him too and seeks his heart".



I mean.....okay,maybe I am not THAT religious .....and someone more religious than me has to explain this to me......All this is nice in theory and I understand that sometimes it's easier to think like this,okay I forgive,I need some peace of mind BUT FGS this person he's praying for sexually assaulted and garroted his little girl.Not only that but put him and his family through hell for all those many years.Or is he only trying to "explain" his lack of anger.

There IS a limit,right?Religious or not.I'm surprised they didn't say they even feel sorry for the "guy" because he must have had a trouble childhood or something.

And Patsy saying she heard a holy voice saying "Patsy Ramsey,you NEED Christmas!"
Dunno,to me it sounds like her selfish alter ego was telling her that.Aww,don't feel bad for partying,it's okay if you find something symbolic in it.

Oh, Madeleine, I had never noticed that bit about John praying for JBR's murderer. That seems so incredible to me. I know that forgiveness and hating the sin rather than the sinner are central to Christian doctrine but praying for the soul of the murderer of your child...? I mean, like you, I consider myself to be only moderately religious but my mother's Catholicism is absolute and she herself has said that she'd risk her immortal soul to punish someone who hurt her children.

There's an Ann Rule book in which a little girl is raped and murdered by her uncle who was staying in the family home. The mother and father were very religious and were praying for the uncle's soul just as they were mourning their own daughter. Interesting that it was a family member for whom they were praying......


Patsy's interactions with God *are* interesting and I know a few people thought that, were the Ramseys ever indicted, some sort of religious psychosis might be part of their defence. Certainly, if people start thinking that God is communicating with them, it's viewed as a psychiatric red flag since it's generally only a step away from thinking oneself an instrument of God and justifying just about anything as being His will.

Thank you for posting that, Madeleine.

 

[Sophie]

Just reading a review of a new biography of Muriel Spark which got me thinking of the 'Miss Jean Brodie' motive as elaborated by a couple of people. Not sure that clear intent could be inferred from something that was so doollally but....Miss Jean Brodie hated organisations like the Girl Guides, ostensibly because they promoted homogeneity, but really because she was jealous of the influence they had on blossoming little girls when her own influence should be absolute. She encouraged the girls to take on the characteristics of womanhood early. Presuambly the Miss Jean Brodie motive would be that Patsy was apoplectic about losing her control over JBR who was starting to assert her individuality. I think the suggestion of the Sapphic about Miss Jean Brodie was also in some way linked to Patsy by some.

Can't say that this is a runner for me but it has been suggested over the years.


Excellent film and even better book, though....

 

[madeleine]

Oh, Madeleine, I had never noticed that bit about John praying for JBR's murderer. That seems so incredible to me. I know that forgiveness and hating the sin rather than the sinner are central to Christian doctrine but praying for the soul of the murderer of your child...? I mean, like you, I consider myself to be only moderately religious but my mother's Catholicism is absolute and she herself has said that she'd risk her immortal soul to punish someone who hurt her children.

There's an Ann Rule book in which a little girl is raped and murdered by her uncle who was staying in the family home. The mother and father were very religious and were praying for the uncle's soul just as they were mourning their own daughter. Interesting that it was a family member for whom they were praying......


Patsy's interactions with God *are* interesting and I know a few people thought that, were the Ramseys ever indicted, some sort of religious psychosis might be part of their defence. Certainly, if people start thinking that God is communicating with them, it's viewed as a psychiatric red flag since it's generally only a step away from thinking oneself an instrument of God and justifying just about anything as being His will.

Thank you for posting that, Madeleine.

Yvw.
Don't know whether this happens in the first part of the interview or the second but the only time JR seems nervous is when the pastor asks him if he thinks God punished him for his sins.Mmm,he just can't find his place on that couch.

To watch their body language in this interview is a delight.

 

[JMO8778]

What mark?Wow this is new to me,can I have more details pretty please.

in their first appearance on CNN,JR had a mark..what looked to be a scrape..on the side of his face.I'll see if I can find a pic.

 

[JMO8778]

Didn't know where to put this but then I remembered you mentioned religion in your post.

http://www.enewhope.org/nhn/nhn-player.php?resourceid=48

JR says :" I prayed for this person(the killer) without knowing who it is.God loves him too and seeks his heart".



I mean.....okay,maybe I am not THAT religious .....and someone more religious than me has to explain this to me......All this is nice in theory and I understand that sometimes it's easier to think like this,okay I forgive,I need some peace of mind BUT FGS this person he's praying for sexually assaulted and garroted his little girl.Not only that but put him and his family through hell for all those many years.Or is he only trying to "explain" his lack of anger.

imo,yes.
There IS a limit,right?Religious or not.I'm surprised they didn't say they even feel sorry for the "guy" because he must have had a trouble childhood or something.

And Patsy saying she heard a holy voice saying "Patsy Ramsey,you NEED Christmas!"
Dunno,to me it sounds like her selfish alter ego was telling her that.Aww,don't feel bad for partying,it's okay if you find something symbolic in it.


I agree.I think she wanted a reason to still enjoy Christams,and not feel guilty about it.

sure,there is a limit and no parent,no matter how religious,would want their child's killer to escape justice.

in bold...JR said he felt sorry for JMK for all the media hounding he was getting (even tho he brought it on himself!).if that ain't the weirdest thing..

 

[DeeDee249]

Sometimes it's OK to hate the sinner.

 

[Mysteeri]

I think Patsy was saying that the Holy Spirit spoke to her that she needs Christmas because it`s about celebrating Christs birth and eternal life, and that they`ll be with JB again. Is there reason to believe (if they are innocent) that they don`believe JB is in heaven and that they will be with her again, or that for them, Christmas is about partying or something else than Christs birth and it`s meaning?

I don`t know what to think about praying for JB`s killer. I can imagine that if their faith was strong, they wanted to achieve forgiveness and let God be the judge. The praying might have included, as Patsy said, that the killer would come out. Finding God also means repenting one`s sins.

It`s difficult to judge other peoples thoughts and experiences, especially if their belief system and meanings are different.

 

[JMO8778]

sure,I just don't see the R's as coming off as being sincere in their beliefs.I'm not being judgmental,that's not my place,it's just an overall observation.
ST said to the R's on LKL that part of repentance involves confessing the sins,as the bible states.Instead of saying, 'well,we won't have to worry about that,we're not guilty' (like a non-guilty person would say),he got very defensive and yelled 'IT DOES NOT SAY THAT!!!!'

 

[BBB167893]

I don`t know what to think about praying for JB`s killer. I can imagine that if their faith was strong, they wanted to achieve forgiveness and let God be the judge. The praying might have included, as Patsy said, that the killer would come out. Finding God also means repenting one`s sins.

It`s difficult to judge other peoples thoughts and experiences, especially if their belief system and meanings are different.

Just remember one thing, Mysteeri: if PR is JB's killer, then I HAVE prayed for her. I STILL do.

 

[Sophie]

I think Patsy was saying that the Holy Spirit spoke to her that she needs Christmas because it`s about celebrating Christs birth and eternal life, and that they`ll be with JB again. Is there reason to believe (if they are innocent) that they don`believe JB is in heaven and that they will be with her again, or that for them, Christmas is about partying or something else than Christs birth and it`s meaning?

I don`t know what to think about praying for JB`s killer. I can imagine that if their faith was strong, they wanted to achieve forgiveness and let God be the judge. The praying might have included, as Patsy said, that the killer would come out. Finding God also means repenting one`s sins.

It`s difficult to judge other peoples thoughts and experiences, especially if their belief system and meanings are different.

You are right of course, Mysteeri. I think it's just hard for some of us (well, me, I won't speak for others) to match up the ultra-Christian forgiveness with some of the other behaviours - eg. Patsy not speaking to someone for a year after they pointed out one of her grammatical mistakes and referring to some other woman as a 'blonde *****' who was pursuing her husband. She is quite vicious about politically-correct Boulder and the way the people there live. She also doesn't appear to have come from especially gentle stock in terms of judging others - eg. Nedra's attack on Tom Carson and her comments about the 'homeliness' of a six year-old girl.

Of course, the cancer, death of Beth then JBR's murder might have been epiphanies in terms of religion. Certainly John has recently said that he reads everything he can on God in his quest to find an intellectual rather than emotional basis for believing in God.

 

[Sophie]

Showing my ignorance here but what religion did the Ramseys practise?

I had assumed that they were Episcopalians, which, according to Wiki is half way between Catholicism and Protestantism (ie. they do Communion etc) but I am reading about Ramsey links with the Baptist church and Methodism, too.

Not that this has any bearing on anything but I'm curious...

 

[madeleine]

Maybe saying that they forgive the killer only means something like pls be gentle with us&forgive whatever we might have done

 

[Sophie]

Maybe saying that they forgive the killer only means something like pls be gentle with us&forgive whatever we might have done

True! JAR's first reaction of wishing forgiveness for the killer certainly tends to back up that theory...

This is just a sort of musing but it's easy to infer a charm offensive from the Ramseys' post-murder behaviour - from being so forbearing and forgiving of the killer to viewing ST with sorrow rather than anger* and John writing to the 'Daddy's Little ' artist in such measured, forgiving tones.

*Until a window for litigation opened up....


If the Ramseys genuinely were this good, kind and forgiving, then they were indeed reamrakable.

 

[JMO8778]

I have a hard time reconciling their actions due to things like their throwing everyone and anyone they can under the Ramsey bus..even their former friends and housekeeper.To think they would let an innocent person...even someone they knew,go to jail (or worse) for something they didn't do,is beyond reprehensible.And the beating the White's and Tom Miller took...again,inexcusable.All (and more) have had their reputations thrown to the wind,not to mention the taxpayer money spent and wasted.. on the R's casting suspicion and throwing the names of whom they knew to be innocent out there.
And then one of the worst...Santa Bill.The poor guy had heart problems and a bypass..I'm surprised he didn't have a heart attack and die when the finger-pointing and suspicion was cast upon him.THAT is just inexcusable!!!!!

 

[JMO8778]

Of course, the cancer, death of Beth then JBR's murder might have been epiphanies in terms of religion. Certainly John has recently said that he reads everything he can on God in his quest to find an intellectual rather than emotional basis for believing in God.

IMO he would be doing good to follow Bill Gate's example and study up on DNA.(and that's just for starters).