"Stun Gun" marks

[Veronica10]

[/b]

I agree Veronica. I don't think he was abusing her and I cannot see him doing this sex game with her with Patsy in the house and Berke in the house wtih JB dying because of it and Patsy going along with this.

I'm agreeing with this theory more and more. Someone mentioned Steve Thomas believing this...I guess I never fully played it out in my mind. I will now though. And I'm sure ST has inside info.

Also, regarding JR. He had no liking for small girls...I don't think a person just wakes up one day and has a liking for a child. I never saw anything in his past that raised eyebrows. The only issue he did have was an infidelity issue in his first marriage. A woman in her 20s or 30s. He did not sexually abuse JonBenet and I don't think anyone else had access to her.

Note: One other ST mention...I know some people were baffled at his theory that Patsy did it alone...I think he said that publicly in order to get Patsy to snap and finger John. Shame it didn't work if that was his tactic.

 

[Solace]

I'm agreeing with this theory more and more. Someone mentioned Steve Thomas believing this...I guess I never fully played it out in my mind. I will now though. And I'm sure ST has inside info.

Also, regarding JR. He had no liking for small girls...I don't think a person just wakes up one day and has a liking for a child. I never saw anything in his past that raised eyebrows. The only issue he did have was an infidelity issue in his first marriage. A woman in her 20s or 30s. He did not sexually abuse JonBenet and I don't think anyone else had access to her.

Note: One other ST mention...I know some people were baffled at his theory that Patsy did it alone...I think he said that publicly in order to get Patsy to snap and finger John. Shame it didn't work if that was his tactic.

You are right on Veronica. I do not know why so many are having so many problems with this theory. I do not see John abusing her either. Steve Thomas was a seasoned detective. He had been doing this for some 10 years and had seen some horrific cases. I could not even continue reading about the one he was working on prior to JB, it was that bad. They all involved children. I really think the staging was done not to hide the sexual abuse but to say "a parent would never do this".

What I want to know is how she continued on without drugs and I don't mean xanax. I would need to be out of it, close to dead 24 hours a day if I defiled my child that way, even it was to save my skin. Like the man on tv said the other night, it is the only way to get through and you almost start to believe you didn't do it by denying it. But they really went to some great lengths. It is bizarre.

 

[coloradokares]

Ah yes, this makes a lot of sense. JB had issues with wetting and soiling. As the mother of three small girls I know cleaning up a diaper or after an accident for a small girl is an intricate procedure. If soiling happens, then the (excuse the medical termiology here) labia needs to be thoroughly cleaned, and very gently just inside the vagina in case any feces may have gotten inside. Ever so gently.
If JB's cleaning up happened when Patsy was angry (the screaming sessions in the bathroom), then an injury to JonBenet is very possible. The injury to the hymen could very likely happen with rough wiping etc.

And just one more note regarding the douching theory...I only ever theorized this because I so strongly believe JB WAS NOT sexually abused. That is the only reason I would explore other possibilities for the damage to the hymen.

What if the cleaning was due to problems the yeast infections etc. But also one does not cancel out the other. What if the cleaning was due to certain behaviors that started with sexual abuse? Just making noise to see if anyone has thought that just because Patsy may have had some anger trigger from bathroom cleaning sessions does not mean that cancels out that there well could have been and it seems even likely there was sexual abuse issues from somewhere. IE the underware hidden in the drawers Holly Smith the sexual abuse office noted and spoke of in interview. What if and this is just my big what if.......the cleaning sessions were really from Patsy cleaning JonBenet due to suspicion of molestation or sexual abuse from some source. Much like a woman who has been raped sees herself as unclean... and will shower repeatedly at great lengths to wash away the feeling. Who can say how psychology may work and get twisted. We know there was a book regarding incest in the home and Nedra Paugh said JonBenet was only a little molested. I have read also that there was suspicion of molestation in Patsy's childhood.

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab, I can only think of one person and that person lived in the house. I do not think it was him at all. I don't know who else you would be referring to. But children did not do this crime.

Solace,

A Ramsey family member was involved in the death of JonBenet, but neither Patsy Ramsey nor John Ramsey did it.

Never, in all of the annals of crime, has a parent ever stungunned his or her own child. Moreover, neither parent has as much as even one item of evidence against them, and both have exculpatory evidence in favor of them (DNA evidence, handwriting evidence, and polygraph evidence). Yet both parents have been involved in a coverup from day one, and there's only one person on the face of this earth they would coverup for after the murder of their own daughter.

IMO ALL of the coverup evidence points to that person. Additional coverup evidence points to one or more accomplices, one of whom could be an adult. The Colorado Children's Code and the court's gag order properly protects the identity of the children who were involved, but this may also be letting an adult accomplice get away with murder (I can't mention his name either because that would automatically lead to revealing the names of the children).

BlueCrab

 

[Dru]

Veronica, why do you believe strongly that JBR was not being sexually abused? I'm just wondering.

IMO, if JR was abusing JBR, this wasn't a 'typical' pedo type abuse situation. I think specific stresses in his life, such as PR's cancer and subsequent unavailability to her husband, combined with the traumatic loss of Beth and JR's deep and obvious grief over this, led to any hypothetical abuse. In addition, the abuse wasn't, apparently, actual intercourse; I can think of another man not that long ago who denied having 'sex' with a young intern because what they were doing wasn't actually 'sex' in his mind. I could see JR being in a mindset like that.

Then you factor in the pageants, the fact that PR was teaching JBR how to move like she did, how to act like she did, how to pose, and hold the pose, like she did--and I wonder.

Recently JR was interviewed, and I don't know if anybody has the source, but he was talking about JBR and he said something I've never heard him say before.

He said she was just like Patsy.

 

[Solace]

Solace,

A Ramsey family member was involved in the death of JonBenet, but neither Patsy Ramsey nor John Ramsey did it. I disagree.

Never, in all of the annals of crime, has a parent ever stungunned his or her own child. Moreover, neither parent has as much as even one item of evidence against them, and both have exculpatory evidence in favor of them (DNA evidence (if you are talking about the degraded DNA found in the underwear, that won't cut it; it has been explored every which way AND UP, and it is degraded, most likely a male, older than JB's DNA, which tells us it was there before that day). So unless you have other DNA, that will not do. handwriting evidence (This is patently untrue - you can look at the handwriting analysis submitted by I believe it was Wolf's lawyer and the similarities are as follows, at least 24 out of 26 of the letters match and some can even be superimposed, and polygraph evidence (You are referring to Dr. Gelb and his sidekick. Dr. Gelb performed three tests before Patsy got it right. Dr. Gelb's history is less than less than. You have to do a search and find out just where he got his credentials - So no, to this also). Yet both parents have been involved in a coverup from day one, and there's only one person on the face of this earth they would coverup for after the murder of their own daughter.

IMO ALL of the coverup evidence points to that person. Additional coverup evidence points to one or more accomplices, one of whom could be an adult. The Colorado Children's Code and the court's gag order properly protects the identity of the children who were involved, but this may also be letting an adult accomplice get away with murder (I can't mention his name either because that would automatically lead to revealing the names of the children).

BlueCrab

Blue Crab, I refer you to my answers written above, but in short, there IS NO DNA evidence excluding the Ramseys, none whatsoever. I think most people here who are reading your posts realize this and are tired of the whole DNA thing, but I am responding anyway. The polygraphs they took are a joke and please do some reasearch on the sleaze who administered them before you take it as gospel. She also failed two tests. As far as the handwriting tests, the evidence is OVERWHELMING in favor of her writing the note.

But you know what, when I read they had Dr. Gelb administer the tests, I was not surprised, because like attracts like and the Ramseys had sunk rather low so it was natural they would find the likes of Dr. Gelb. He got his "factory" diploma from a nonreputable source, reputable only in the worst way.
Those are facts.

 

[Veronica10]

Veronica, why do you believe strongly that JBR was not being sexually abused? I'm just wondering.

IMO, if JR was abusing JBR, this wasn't a 'typical' pedo type abuse situation. I think specific stresses in his life, such as PR's cancer and subsequent unavailability to her husband, combined with the traumatic loss of Beth and JR's deep and obvious grief over this, led to any hypothetical abuse. In addition, the abuse wasn't, apparently, actual intercourse; I can think of another man not that long ago who denied having 'sex' with a young intern because what they were doing wasn't actually 'sex' in his mind. I could see JR being in a mindset like that.

Then you factor in the pageants, the fact that PR was teaching JBR how to move like she did, how to act like she did, how to pose, and hold the pose, like she did--and I wonder.

Recently JR was interviewed, and I don't know if anybody has the source, but he was talking about JBR and he said something I've never heard him say before.

He said she was just like Patsy.

Dru,

It is not one factor but many, including:

• my belief that Patsy ran a very tight ship and she was the leader in that house. if JR ever touched JB, she would cut his balls off
• if anything as a father he was disconnected (second time father, absent quite a bit)
• he had ample opportunity outside the home (business trips) to satisfy his needs
• JB was vocal, fun, outgoing...not typical of a child being molested. I think she would be an unlikely victim due to her outspoken nature. whoever touched her would likely be found out
• he had way too much to lose...and I think he truly loved patsy, in his own weird way-she was his Jackie O.
• seemed to be a good father, very in touch with his first set of kids. second time around he was distant and deeply, deeply involved in Access business.
• They were highly and unusually involved (maybe even over-involved) in Boulder society, church society to have secrets like that. Their lives seemed like an open book. They wanted to be in the spotlight and I don't think this is typical of abuse situations.
• JB seemed to have a sweet love for her dad and there was never anything to suggest otherwise

I am rambling but I'm sure I will think of others. I think the suggestion of sex is introduced through Patsy and her pageants. And yes I think JB was sexualized to be coy and sexy but I don't think actual sex was involved.

 

[BlueCrab]

julianne,

However, there is one little fact seldom mentioned when the scream is discussed -- the Ramseys ALSO slept with their bedroom window slightly ajar. Therefore, IMO the Ramseys, like Melody Stanton, did indeed hear JonBenet's scream

julianne,

I'd better source this as a potentially important fact when debating the scream (from the 1998 interviews):

JOHN RAMSEY: "I mean we hear noises from -- when we hear noises, it was typically from outdoors from students."

LOU SMIT: "You can hear that from your room?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "We always slept with the windows open."

BlueCrab

 

[Dru]

Veronica, thanks for explaining all of that; you've got some good points.

I'm not totally sure about the "Patsy running a tight ship" thing, myself. From various interviews and observers PR seemed to have been disorganized and slapdash, and I also think her lengthy battle with cancer took a toll. Also, wasn't she several years younger than JR?

Again, on the distant/absent father thing, I think it's hard to say. As for 'opportunities' elsewhere, remember that infidelity had ruined his first marriage, and with PR's cancer he may not have had many 'opportunities.'

As for JBR's fun, vocal, outgoing nature, not all abused children become withdrawn or meek. Some identify with the abuser and rationalize the abuse; some seem perfectly fine on the outside, but display unusual behavior of a different kind, problems at school perhaps, a sudden fear of things they used to enjoy, or even a regression into certain infant behaviors, such as the resurfacing of old bedwetting/soiling issues. Given what we know of JBR I don't think we can say with confidence that she wasn't being abused just because her personality didn't appear to reflect it--I've seen some video clips where she's performing at a pageant, and she almost seems able to "turn on" and "turn off" the pageant persona. A child like that might be less likely to display outward signs of abuse.

I agree with you that JR had way too much to lose--which is why, if he was abusing JBR in any way, and feared that she was about to tell, the attack and murder might have been a logical consequence of that fear.

The rest of your points could be interpreted different ways, I think. For instance, why did JR seem to be more attentive to his first family than his second? Did he resent the children of his second marriage in some way? Why was he so wrapped up in business--PR's ambitions, or his own? I tend to see JR as being just as ambitious as PR in some ways; PR's ambition seemed focused on having JBR 'relive' PR's past glories, while JR seemed focused on his own successes, so much so that in one of his interviews he almost seems angrier with LE for not treating him with the respect he thinks he deserves than he is that they haven't found the 'killer'! JR's the one who ran for political office, too, after his daughter's murder.

To sum up (sorry I'm so wordy, lol!) I've become more and more interested in the possibility of JR being the killer as I've gone along, in part because of the way he seems to stay underneath the radar.

I recognize that most on this board think PR did it. But if she did, then which of these two statements is true:
a)PR committed the crime and covered it up alone, or
b)PR committed the crime but then had JR help her cover it up.

Most would say "b" for several reasons: there was too much for one person to do, JR's behavior on the morning of the 26th is too suspicious for someone who didn't already know what had happened, etc. But if "b" is correct, then the one question I've not seen a good answer for from the PR did it side is this one:

Why did JR help PR cover up her involvement in the death of JBR?

Lots of posters here say that PR had 'dirt' on JR that made him cooperate, but what 'dirt' could she possibly have had that would make him risk becoming an accessory after the fact in a murder case? I don't think JR would have cooperated just because he didn't want to lose what was left of his family; he'd lost one family before for a far lesser cause, so why wouldn't he walk away from PR if she had killed their daughter? Wouldn't his focus at that point be on Burke? And if PR knew that JR was abusing JBR and that was her 'weapon' to make him help, then it seems to me that we're back at square one, because if JR was abusing JBR than his motive for murder is much greater than anything she could have.

Any thoughts?

 

[Eagle1]

The woman was half asleep. She heard the scream, and did nothing about it...just went back to sleep. I believe that the scream she heard was Patsy's...and even if it WAS JB....that just makes me know more than ever ....not that I NEEDED anymore proof.....that the Ramsey's are as guilty as sin. How the h*ll did they not hear their daughter scream....when they were in the SAME house....and the NEIGHBOR heard her?? Very weird....!

Yep, I agree...as far as hitting perfectly....it could have been done when JB hit her head, when she fell against the tub or the sink. Yes, it could have happened that way...and I believe that it DID.

There's no proof yet, whatsoever, that any of the family did it. We could make up plenty of ways it could have happened, but can't prove it.

I'm tired of waiting for a solution too, but something else has to be revealed before anyone can solve it.

 

[BlueCrab]

Blue Crab, I refer you to my answers written above, but in short, there IS NO DNA evidence excluding the Ramseys, none whatsoever. I think most people here who are reading your posts realize this and are tired of the whole DNA thing, but I am responding anyway. The polygraphs they took are a joke and please do some reasearch on the sleaze who administered them before you take it as gospel. She also failed two tests. As far as the handwriting tests, the evidence is OVERWHELMING in favor of her writing the note.

But you know what, when I read they had Dr. Gelb administer the tests, I was not surprised, because like attracts like and the Ramseys had sunk rather low so it was natural they would find the likes of Dr. Gelb. He got his "factory" diploma from a nonreputable source, reputable only in the worst way.
Those are facts.

S


Solace,

I respectfully disagree with almost everything you put in your post. For instance:

There are 10 identifiable markers in the foreign male DNA found in the mixed sample from JonBenet's underwear. This was enough markers (13 markers are preferred) to enter the sample into the FBI's CODIS program. This male DNA may or may not be from the killer of JonBenet, but it would be irresponsible to disregard it. The Ramsey parents were eliminated as the donor because John's DNA didn't match the sample; and Patsy is a female.

In regard to the handwriting analyses, John was unanimously eliminated as the writer by the six handwriting experts brought together by Alex Hunter to give their individual opinions. The six were:

Chet Ubowski, Colorado Bureau of Investigation;

Leonard Speckin, private examiner;

Edwin Alford, Jr, private examiner;

Lloyd Cunningham, private examiner;

Richard Dusak, U.S. Secret Service examiner; and

Howard Rile, private examiner.

Their consensus was that, with Patsy's score of 4.5, with 5.0 meaning total elimination as the writer, she came very close to being eliminated. The experts concluded that it was very unlikely that Patsy wrote the ransom note. Seventy two suspects took the exam, and many of them scored lower than Patsy and could not be eliminated as the writer, including Burke Ramsey.

In regard to the polygraph given by Ed Gelb, neither John
nor Patsy showed deception in their answers. Gelb is a nationally recognized and highly respected authority on polygraphs. Disliking him doesn't change his competency.

BlueCrab

 

[JMO8778]

I'm agreeing with this theory more and more. Someone mentioned Steve Thomas believing this...I guess I never fully played it out in my mind. I will now though. And I'm sure ST has inside info.

Also, regarding JR. He had no liking for small girls...I don't think a person just wakes up one day and has a liking for a child. I never saw anything in his past that raised eyebrows. The only issue he did have was an infidelity issue in his first marriage. A woman in her 20s or 30s. He did not sexually abuse JonBenet and I don't think anyone else had access to her.

Note: One other ST mention...I know some people were baffled at his theory that Patsy did it alone...I think he said that publicly in order to get Patsy to snap and finger John. Shame it didn't work if that was his tactic.

I think so,too.He sure was giving JR a pass for some reason.

 

[JMO8778]

Why did JR help PR cover up her involvement in the death of JBR?



Any thoughts?

The only thing that really makes any sense to me is that PR killed her in a rage,and she threatened to expose JR's abuse of JB if he didn't go along with it,so he felt he had no choice.

 

[JMO8778]

And if PR knew that JR was abusing JBR and that was her 'weapon' to make him help, then it seems to me that we're back at square one, because if JR was abusing JBR than his motive for murder is much greater than anything she could have.

Any thoughts?

I agree that he would have more of a motive to kill her but..that doesn't mean he would or did,if PR flew into a rage and did it herself.He may have felt relief that he would never be exposed(at least not for sure) for sexual abuse,but I'm not sure he would kill her himself,but then again,I could be wrong.

(maybe I should start a new thread) but I was thinking ...I've always wondered where JR's daughter and her husb. stand on it (Melinda and Stewart,the Dr).I don't think Stewart feels that PR was innocent,since he bothered to call ST and let him know what JR said about him finding her at 11am,not 1pm.Then again,I could be wrong(he could suspect JR now).It must have taken a lot for him to devulge that piece of info,knowing it could likely be a part of some severe ramifications for JR,and placing some risk in his relationship with Melinda.I've always wondered if he talked to her about about it b/f making the call.

 

[BBB167893]

John was molesting her and JB was starting to confide in someone and Patsy didn't want to loose her home and access to the top-notch cancer treatment to keep her alive, so they had to shut her up.

I can follow you so far, Toaster. Sadly, many of the spouses of abusive parents tend to blame the victim. "It would be all right if JonBenet was gone."
That's what you're trying to say?

And even if she was stunned gunned....at the beginning of the first zap, even if she were asleep, it would have woken her up, and she would have had time to let out a scream, before it knocked her out.

That's just it, Ames. They DON'T knock people out.

Only publicity hound doctors have said that the head wound could have come first, but the majority consensus in the medical world is the head blow came after.

I think you have it backwards, there.

(I can't mention his name either because that would automatically lead to revealing the names of the children).

No matter, Crab. I get ya, loud and clear.

IMO, if JR was abusing JBR, this wasn't a 'typical' pedo type abuse situation. I think specific stresses in his life, such as PR's cancer and subsequent unavailability to her husband, combined with the traumatic loss of Beth and JR's deep and obvious grief over this, led to any hypothetical abuse.

It's called "situational." Not because they're attracted to children so much as the child is there.

JB was vocal, fun, outgoing...not typical of a child being molested. I think she would be an unlikely victim due to her outspoken nature. whoever touched her would likely be found out

I knew that would come up! Last week, Wendy Murphy was on O'Reilly, and in most of the child sex crimes she prosecuted, the children appeared totally normal.

In regard to the polygraph given by Ed Gelb, neither John nor Patsy showed deception in their answers. Gelb is a nationally recognized and highly respected authority on polygraphs. Disliking him doesn't change his competency.

No, but his integrity is highly questionable. Anyone can beat those things. I could tell everyone reading this thing right now the easiest way to do just that.

 

[philamena]

Why did JR help PR cover up her involvement in the death of JBR?

Lots of posters here say that PR had 'dirt' on JR that made him cooperate, but what 'dirt' could she possibly have had that would make him risk becoming an accessory after the fact in a murder case? I don't think JR would have cooperated just because he didn't want to lose what was left of his family; he'd lost one family before for a far lesser cause, so why wouldn't he walk away from PR if she had killed their daughter? Wouldn't his focus at that point be on Burke? And if PR knew that JR was abusing JBR and that was her 'weapon' to make him help, then it seems to me that we're back at square one, because if JR was abusing JBR than his motive for murder is much greater than anything she could have.

Any thoughts?

IMO, John Ramsey didn't help cover up his daughter's murder because his wife had dirt on him. He simply covered up the crime so that the Ramsey name wouldn't be tarnished. Oh and he had to protect his precious Patsy.
We must remember, JBR had been sexually molested prior to that night. That in and of itself kept the Ram's from taking JBR to the emergency room or calling LE Dec. 26. Again IMO only.

 

[Solace]

S


Solace,

I respectfully disagree with almost everything you put in your post. For instance:

There are 10 identifiable markers in the foreign male DNA found in the mixed sample from JonBenet's underwear. This was enough markers (13 markers are preferred) to enter the sample into the FBI's CODIS program. This male DNA may or may not be from the killer of JonBenet, but it would be irresponsible to disregard it. The Ramsey parents were eliminated as the donor because John's DNA didn't match the sample; and Patsy is a female.

In regard to the handwriting analyses, John was unanimously eliminated as the writer by the six handwriting experts brought together by Alex Hunter to give their individual opinions. The six were:

Chet Ubowski, Colorado Bureau of Investigation;

Leonard Speckin, private examiner;

Edwin Alford, Jr, private examiner;

Lloyd Cunningham, private examiner;

Richard Dusak, U.S. Secret Service examiner; and

Howard Rile, private examiner.

Their consensus was that, with Patsy's score of 4.5, with 5.0 meaning total elimination as the writer, she came very close to being eliminated. The experts concluded that it was very unlikely that Patsy wrote the ransom note. Seventy two suspects took the exam, and many of them scored lower than Patsy and could not be eliminated as the writer, including Burke Ramsey.

In regard to the polygraph given by Ed Gelb, neither John
nor Patsy showed deception in their answers. Gelb is a nationally recognized and highly respected authority on polygraphs. Disliking him doesn't change his competency.

BlueCrab

Let me respond:

"…It is the current understanding of the family that the investigation team considers this male DNA sample to be the key piece of evidence and was, without a doubt, left behind by the killer of their child."

The very same scientist who conducted the DNA testing in the Denver Police Department’s DNA lab contradicts the above statement.

Rocky Mountain News, May 18, 2004, Charlie Brennan
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/dr...2893675,00.html
text version backup

A claim by John Ramsey's campaign that investigators have the DNA of his daughter's killer goes too far, according to the forensic scientist who developed the genetic profile from that sample.

"That's one of the possibilities, but that's not the only possibility," said the scientist, who asked that his name not be used. It's impossible to say whether the DNA belonged to an adult or a child, according to the scientist.

"You have DNA that's male, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's the killer's," the scientist said. "It could be innocent. It could be from the (undergarment's) manufacturer. It could be a lot of things. Of course it's important. But it's not more important than the rest of the investigation."

"It is only a sample," he said. "You need a match, and that will help you get a name. And then that gives you somebody to talk to. But that person might be alibied-out, or there might be some other explanation for why it's there."


Without knowing if a sample was left by blood, saliva, or some other material, it could be "unknown cellular material sloughed off by somebody's hand," the source said. "You're in an area that is very gray, and it can be very confusing, as to the interpretive value of it."




Polygraphs: The Ramsey attorneys first contacted a polygraph examiner named Gene Parker and inquired if he would be interested in performing the polygraph test on John and Patsy. Parker said he would be interested in performing the tests, but mentioned that because of the seriousness of the crime, he would require both Ramseys take a drug test. Parker said the urine drug tests could be performed right on his premises by a doctor or nurse just before the tests began. The Ramsey attorney told Parker they would get back to him at a later date, and they did call him back about three hours later. In that second call, Parker was informed they were not interested in his conducting the tests because they had found another polygraph examiner they planned on using who did not require drug testing.

Gelb's involvement in the Ramsey case has brought out some very interesting information about the man. . Supposedly Gelb's resume states that he received his doctorate degree from LaSalle University in Louisiana. That would be a real problem, because LaSalle was found to be nothing but a mail-order diploma mill. LaSalle's office was investigated and raided by the FBI, and Thomas Kirk, LaSalle's owner and founder, was found guilty of fraud and sentenced to five years in federal prison. Kirk earned millions of dollars from people looking to obtain fraudulent college degrees at a discount rate with little or no actual course work required.

Calls to Gelb's office by people trying to verify his education were not returned, and one internet sleuth even went as far as to check the master registry of Ph.D. dissertations and could find no information on a doctorate thesis authored by Edward Gelb.

Should "Doctor" Gelb really be addressed as "Dr. Bogus"? Is the man who claims to be the master at detecting the deception of others really a master of public and profession deception himself?

There are six experts who believe Patsy Ramsey wrote the note, two of whom are experts Gideon Epstein and Cina Wong, who said they were "100 percent certain" Mrs. Ramsey wrote the ransom note.

Also Correspondent Raj Chohan of CBS affiliate KCNC reports that handwriting expert Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation has appeared for a second day before the Boulder County grand jury hearing evidence in the homicide case. Ubowski had concluded earlier in the investigation that the note was not written by the slain girl's father John Ramsey, but could have been written by JonBenet's mother, Patsy Ramsey.

BLUECRAB. If you are going to post information, please post ALL of it. It is true that Chet Ubowski ELIMINATED John, but he said that 24 of the 26 letters matched Patsy's handwriting.

And lets not forget Foster, who is renowned. I know that he came out for them in the beginning and had a tete-a-tete with Jameson, but he changed his mind and says Patsy wrote the note . His analysis can be found on the web, along with Darnay Hoffman's expert (this analyis is fascinating) with examples.

And it is interesting to note that out of the people that were tested by the CBI, Patsy is the only one that COULD NOT BE ELIMINATED.

There are I believe3 other handwriting experts who believe Patsy wrote the note.

 

[BlueCrab]

Let me respond:

Also Correspondent Raj Chohan of CBS affiliate KCNC reports that handwriting expert Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation has appeared for a second day before the Boulder County grand jury hearing evidence in the homicide case. Ubowski had concluded earlier in the investigation that the note was not written by the slain girl's father John Ramsey, but could have been written by JonBenet's mother, Patsy Ramsey.

BLUECRAB. If you are going to post information, please post ALL of it. It is true that Chet Ubowski ELIMINATED John, but he said that 24 of the 26 letters matched Patsy's handwriting.

And lets not forget Foster, who is renowned. I know that he came out for them in the beginning and had a tete-a-tete with Jameson, but he changed his mind and says Patsy wrote the note . His analysis can be found on the web, along with Darnay Hoffman's expert (this analyis is fascinating) with examples.

And it is interesting to note that out of the people that were tested by the CBI, Patsy is the only one that COULD NOT BE ELIMINATED.

There are I believe3 other handwriting experts who believe Patsy wrote the note.

Solace,

I agree with most of the irrelevant info you add about the the DNA and the polygraph, but it still doesn't negate the fact that the DNA is not that of John nor Patsy and it could be that of the killer, and that John and Patsy Ramsey passed the polygraph exam without showing deception.

But in regard to Patsy's handwriting analyses, it appears you have swallowed the hook, line, and sinker of the lies of Steve Thomas. For instance, there was never any study that concluded that 24 out of 26 letters in the ransom note matched Patsy's handwriting. Such a conclusion doesn't even make sense. And Chet Ubowski didn't make such a claim; it was made up by and started as a rumor by Steve Thomas. When challenged for a source of such a convoluted study, Steve Thomas couldn't provide one.

Although the official numbers from the handwriting analyses haven't been publicly released, it is believed that not only Patsy, but MOST of the 72 suspects who took the test could not be eliminated as the possible writer of the ransom note. Steve Thomas lied again when he insinuated that Patsy was the only one who could not be eliminated. The truth of the matter is that not even Burke Ramsey could be eliminated as the writer of the ransom note.

Incidentally, I don't think Steve Thomas left the BPD voluntarily. IMO he was given the choice of resigning or being fired for misrepresenting the true findings of the CBI in regard the results of the handwriting analyses.

In regard to Darnay Hoffman's "expert" handwriting analysts, they were
torn apart by Lin Wood during the preliminary hearing, forcing Hoffman to withdraw them and bring the Wolf v Ramsey case to a close.

BlueCrab

 

[Solace]

Solace,

I agree with most of the irrelevant info you add about the the DNA and the polygraph, but it still doesn't negate the fact that the DNA is not that of John nor Patsy and it could be that of the killer, and that John and Patsy Ramsey passed the polygraph exam without showing deception. BlueCrab, nothing I posted is "irrelevant'. We all know that most likely this dna is worthless as far as clearing the Ramseys. But you smokescreen the truth with your post when you say DNA cleared the Ramseys as suspects.

There is no match for an intruder and there is not going to be one unless they start looking for matches in Taiwan where the factory is that made the undergarment. John and Patsy FINALLY passed without deception. The test was done by the ever suspect Dr. Gelb. Maybe it does not bother you how he came to get his diploma? I know it did not bother the Ramseys because pretty much like attracts like and they found each other.

They refused to take a test from another polygrapher because he wanted Patsy to take a drug test. Lin Wood tried very hard to cover this fact up by saying he never called the polygrapher back and told him no. But one of his assistants did, so he was lying, he was just "lying". You might want to leave Lin Wood and his expertise out of this because I believe "he made most of his money on the Ramsey case". John also lied several times about being asked to take one. Patsy finally passed. She also failed so please lets be honest about what you post.

But in regard to Patsy's handwriting analyses, it appears you have swallowed the hook, line, and sinker of the lies of Steve Thomas. For instance, there was never any study that concluded that 24 out of 26 letters in the ransom note matched Patsy's handwriting. Such a conclusion doesn't even make sense. (Makes sense to me. At one point or another in the ransom note 24 letters out of 26 match). And Chet Ubowski didn't make such a claim; it was made up by and started as a rumor by Steve Thomas. When challenged for a source of such a convoluted study, Steve Thomas couldn't provide one. I will be happy to recant if you can prove that to me. Chet Ubowski said at the Grand Jury that he could not eliminate Patsy. You posted that he eliminated John, but you neglected to post he could not eliminate Patsy. That is borderingn on "misleading". Don't you think?

I looked at the analysis Darnay Hoffman's expert provided and if it does not amaze most, I will be surprised. It is in in a word "incredible".

Although the official numbers from the handwriting analyses haven't been publicly released, it is believed that not only Patsy, but MOST of the 72 suspects who took the test could not be eliminated as the possible writer of the ransom note. I believe you have that backwards, but please prove it to me.

Steve Thomas lied again when he insinuated that Patsy was the only one who could not be eliminated. The truth of the matter is that not even Burke Ramsey could be eliminated as the writer of the ransom note. I thought you said CBI eliminated John. What is it? Well someone is lying here then. Tell me how you know Steve Thomas is lying. Please prove it to me and I will recant. I have no problem with that.

Mr. Thomas does not strike me as someone who lies. Patsy Ramsey does though, John Ramsey does and oh yes, Lin Wood has a great way of twisting things such as saying the fact that Lacy went to Patsy's funeral proves she was innocent. Using Lin Wood to back up your argument is scraping the bottom of the Ramsey barraell.

Incidentally, I don't think Steve Thomas left the BPD voluntarily. IMO he was given the choice of resigning or being fired for misrepresenting the true findings of the CBI in regard the results of the handwriting analyses. We are dealing in facts here BlueCrab, not what you think. It is a man's career we are talking about. So lets deal in facts. Can you prove that?

By the way, he stands by his book and never paid a dime to the Ramseys. He would not pay them anything and that was put in the settlement. There would be no settlement if money came out of his pocket.

In regard to Darnay Hoffman's "expert" handwriting analysts, they were
torn apart by Lin Wood during the preliminary hearing, forcing Hoffman to withdraw them and bring the Wolf v Ramsey case to a close. The analysis speaks for itself and it is damning.

BlueCrab

My responses above. By the way Blue Crab, you conveniently overlook Dr. Gelb's infamous history. Does it bother you that the place he got his diploma was raided by the FBI.

Sorry Blue Crab, you have to do better than this.

 

[BBB167893]

Steve Thomas lied again when he insinuated that Patsy was the only one who could not be eliminated. The truth of the matter is that not even Burke Ramsey could be eliminated as the writer of the ransom note.

Actually, he said she was the only one proven to be in the house. I guess what I'm saying is when you eliminate the impossible, what remains must be the truth.

In regard to Darnay Hoffman's "expert" handwriting analysts, they were
torn apart by Lin Wood during the preliminary hearing, forcing Hoffman to withdraw them and bring the Wolf v Ramsey case to a close.

Hoffman claims that the Rs never released any handwriting analysis that contradicts the analysis of his experts. And he is correct. No one has.

Anyone have that side-by-side comparison chart? The PDF file I mean. That would do it.