"Stun Gun" marks

[Solace]

Solace,

Sorry, but I don't have any sources re' the comforter fibers other than what you included in your above post. Lou Smit's take on the fiber evidence, included in detail in his power point presentation, has been widely quoted in various articles and publications. I don't ever remembering seeing the CBI's report on the fiber evidence. The Atlanta interviews of 2000 included only the fibers from the clothing of Patsy and John.

Bluecrab

Just would like to bring to your attention that Chet Ubowski of the CBI said Patsy could not be eliminated as a writer of the note and since you are not sure of that one and do not necessarily believe it, then I would like to suggest that you might take this information for what it is worth also. The FBI analysis says it disagrees about the fiber evidence from the comforter. If you are going to report CBI's findings as gospel, as you did in your last post, then you should do the same with Chet's findings on the handwriting analysis, no? I mean it doesn't seem cricket if you quote findings when they agree with your theory and do not quote them if they disagree.

 

[BlueCrab]

Just would like to bring to your attention that Chet Ubowski of the CBI said Patsy could not be eliminated as a writer of the note and since you are not sure of that one and do not necessarily believe it, then I would like to suggest that you might take this information for what it is worth also. The FBI analysis says it disagrees about the fiber evidence from the comforter. If you are going to report CBI's findings as gospel, as you did in your last post, then you should do the same with Chet's findings on the handwriting analysis, no? I mean it doesn't seem cricket if you quote findings when they agree with your theory and do not quote them if they disagree.

Solace,

You are correct. I purposely left out the FBI's findings in regard to the fibers.

In regard to the writing, Chet Ubowski was included in the group of 6 QDE's selected by Boulder authorities to analyze the handwriting of 73 suspects. The consensus of the QDE's was that Patsy scored 4.5 in a scale of 1.0 to 5.0 whereby 1.0 meant you were definitely the writer and 5.0 meant you were totally eliminated as the possible writer. Patsy's 4.5 score meant she could not be eliminated as the possible writer, as did many others of the 73 who were examined could not be eliminated as the writer. However, according to the experts, Patsy's 4.5 score made it "highly unlikely" that she was the writer. This was clear and made sense to me.

In regard to the fibers on JonBenet, allegedly from the comforter, the CBI reported its findings and I stated their findings in my post. I didn't report the FBI's findings in my post because they seemed confusing. The FBI said the fibers on JonBenet were not from the comforter, but they could not find anything else in the house that was consistent with those fibers on JonBenet. This was not clear and did not make sense to me, so I didn't use it.

IOW, the CBI and the FBI both agree there were mysterious fibers on JonBenet, but the CBI was more specific about the source of the fibers.

BlueCrab

 

[Solace]

Solace,

You are correct. I purposely left out the FBI's findings in regard to the fibers.

In regard to the writing, Chet Ubowski was included in the group of 6 QDE's selected by Boulder authorities to analyze the handwriting of 73 suspects. The consensus of the QDE's was that Patsy scored 4.5 in a scale of 1.0 to 5.0 whereby 1.0 meant you were definitely the writer and 5.0 meant you were totally eliminated as the possible writer. Patsy's 4.5 score meant she could not be eliminated as the possible writer, as did many others of the 73 who were examined could not be eliminated as the writer. However, according to the experts, Patsy's 4.5 score made it "highly unlikely" that she was the writer. This was clear and made sense to me.

In regard to the fibers on JonBenet, allegedly from the comforter, the CBI reported its findings and I stated their findings in my post. I didn't report the FBI's findings in my post because they seemed confusing. The FBI said the fibers on JonBenet were not from the comforter, but they could not find anything else in the house that was consistent with those fibers on JonBenet. This was not clear and did not make sense to me, so I didn't use it.

IOW, the CBI and the FBI both agree there were mysterious fibers on JonBenet, but the CBI was more specific about the source of the fibers.

BlueCrab

Glad we cleared that up.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

What score did Burke get, on a scale of 1.0 to 5.0? Who else was unable to be eliminated on this scale?

 

[BlueCrab]

What score did Burke get, on a scale of 1.0 to 5.0? Who else was unable to be eliminated on this scale?

Nuisanceposter,

Who knows? The results of the handwriting examinations were never released to the public. All the public has to go on are tidbits of information gleened from such things as depositions in civil actions and search warrant applications by the police.

The court has a gag order on the case, apparently because Boulder authorities insist the investigation is still ongoing. Yeah, right. The case is 10 years old and there's no money in the budget for an active investigation; yet Mary Lacy says the investigation is ongoing. (I'm gagging. Please excuse me while I go and throw up.)

BlueCrab

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Thank you, BlueCrab. I'm literally sick to my stomach about the Ramsey case being in the hands of people who claim to be active in it, yet are obviously doing as little as possible. Do you suppose all (heck, even most, or I'll settle for some) of the information unavailable to the public will ever be released?

 

[Camper]

It would be great if the gag order on the Grand Jury was removed. I -u-me that the gag order stays in place until the 'active' investigation is abandoned, huh, er?

Alex Hunter must surely have a new set of invisible clothing by now. Where is Waldo, anyone know?

I can see his face yet on TV, looking hard and low through his eyeglasses and telling the PERP, along with the rest of us, 'WE will find you'. He deserved an Oscar for that performance.

.

 

[Eagle1]

Nuisanceposter,

From memory it was freshly broken with shards of wood left just outside the wine-cellar door, I doubt whether anyone was concerned whether it was already broken and expendable, if this was a resident, they are wealthy why bother, if they were intruder why care?

There is no blood or apparent residue left on the remaining pieces, so I assume the missing piece will have these forensic features?

Well, NP and Camper may be right that some artist threw away the top of a brush. that worked unusually well except for being too long. It's certainly possible. It'd be hard for a woman to break one of any size. I don't remember ever having one I could break even if I wanted to. Which I never did. We'll probably never know. I'm not saying they did or didn't. It's just an idea. Could happen. I certainly don't think Burke was involved.

 

[Tober]

It'd be hard for a woman to break one of any size. I don't remember ever having one I could break even if I wanted to.

There are a number of ways to break a paint brush handle, though. Factor that in, along with the stress of the situation, and a woman could easily have done it.

 

[Camper]

There are a number of ways to break a paint brush handle, though. Factor that in, along with the stress of the situation, and a woman could easily have done it.

IF IF a person is under major stress, there is no way 'the' person would undertake a different means of breaking off the tip of a sturdy quality artist paintbrush, trust me on that.

Here is a test YOU can do at home, buy a long handled quality artist paintbrush and try breaking it yourself. NO WAY, could even Goliath break just three or four inches of the TIP end off.

You could perhaps put it in a vise and push it/pull it to break it. My method was to saw it off.

WHY would a woman under stress even try to break off the end of a paintbrush? Bogus thought, imop. Other options, scream, holler, throw something, hit something or someone. Sit down and pray.

.

 

[Eagle1]

Well, not many of us would want to just throw away that kind of money, the cost of a quality artist brush from an art supply store. We should just take your word for it.

I assure you, Tober, even with extra adrenalin, (sp?) probably no woman could break off 3 or 4 inches of a brush handle. Any woman that physically strong probably would not even be in the arts, which is all about mental sensitivity, not physical at all.

Couple of other factors, (1) PR had been sick, and (2) both the parents had a reputation for being way, way, way too lenient with the kids,
NOT having much of a temper. JR said he didn't have enough IMPACT on customers to keep his job, at....was it AT&T? Too easy-going.Which also partially answers the question why didn't he do more detective work.

We have a pretty good picture of the mild-mannered parents. JonBenet could be bratty like any kid, once kicked her mom in the shins, I believe, but she was sick a lot, and molested, and couldn't get grownups to do anything about it. It's my opinion she's the one who tried the 911 call on the 23rd, and that someone, possibly FW, grabbed the phone away from her, S. Stine then incredibly refusing entrance to the investigating police.
Maybe Stine could break a paintbrush? I'm not saying she's a murderer. Just a passing thought. Possibly her strength was why PR sought her out, to stay with for a while. Stine laughingly told her after a while, she thought she just meant come for dinner.

Editing to add, since I didn't get back to it at the time we were discussing the possible murder weapon, possibly it was a steel pipe? Some TV show gave me that idea. I can't take credit for it. It wasn't about JonBenet.

 

[Tober]

It is utterly ridiculous to suggest that a woman (Patsy) could not have broken the paint brush handle, including the tip of it. Just how has anyone arrived at that conclusion? She could have placed it under her foot and snapped it off, or broken it any number of other ways. She is tied to the paint brush handle and paint tote circumstantially (they were her items), and the fiber evidence connects her to both the paint tote and neck ligature. Her sweater-jacket fibers were found both in the body room (on the inside of the duct tape, on the blanket JonBenet's body was wrapped in) and outside the body room (in the paint tote). Wooden shards from the broken paint brush handle were also found near the paint tote. Maybe Patsy didn't break the paint brush handle and John did, but to suggest a woman couldn't have done it is just ridiculous.

 

[UKGuy]

IF IF a person is under major stress, there is no way 'the' person would undertake a different means of breaking off the tip of a sturdy quality artist paintbrush, trust me on that.

Here is a test YOU can do at home, buy a long handled quality artist paintbrush and try breaking it yourself. NO WAY, could even Goliath break just three or four inches of the TIP end off.

You could perhaps put it in a vise and push it/pull it to break it. My method was to saw it off.

WHY would a woman under stress even try to break off the end of a paintbrush? Bogus thought, imop. Other options, scream, holler, throw something, hit something or someone. Sit down and pray.

.

Camper,

In the absence of any confirming evidence, it seems simpler to assume, as you suggest, that the paintbrush was already broken.

Since there were shards of wood discovered outside the wine-cellar if one or more of those can be matched to the pointed handle end, then we still have a missing paintbrush piece, and this may be redacted infromation?


.

 

[Tober]

Camper,

In the absence of any confirming evidence, it seems simpler to assume, as you suggest, that the paintbrush was already broken.

It is possible that the paint brush was already broken. However, suspect statements are evidence and the Ramseys need to be held to what they said in light of the physical evidence. According to Patsy, there were no broken paint brushes in the paint tote prior to JonBenet's death. If Patsy is being truthful about that, it means the offender broke the paint brush during the time JonBenet was killed. Patsy also stated that she never wore that sweater-jacket while painting or while in the basement. Based on Patsy's statements in light of the physical evidence, we can say to a reasonable degree of certainty that the offender broke the paint brush handle near the paint tote during the time JonBenet was killed. Since Patsy didn't have access to the paint tote after police arrival, we can say that Patsy's sweater-jacket fibers had to have been deposited in the paint tote prior to JonBenet being killed or during JonBenet being killed. Patsy's statements of never wearing the sweater-jacket while painting or while in the basement essentially rule out those fibers being deposited in the paint tote prior to JonBenet being killed. The only other option, with forensic basis to support it, is that Patsy's sweater-jacket fibers were deposited into the paint tote during JonBenet being killed. Based on the fiber evidence, we have a forensic basis to say that it was Patsy who broke the paint brush used in the neck ligature.

 

[Camper]

It is utterly ridiculous to suggest that a woman (Patsy) could not have broken the paint brush handle, including the tip of it. Just how has anyone arrived at that conclusion? She could have placed it under her foot and snapped it off, or broken it any number of other ways. She is tied to the paint brush handle and paint tote circumstantially (they were her items), and the fiber evidence connects her to both the paint tote and neck ligature. Her sweater-jacket fibers were found both in the body room (on the inside of the duct tape, on the blanket JonBenet's body was wrapped in) and outside the body room (in the paint tote). Wooden shards from the broken paint brush handle were also found near the paint tote. Maybe Patsy didn't break the paint brush handle and John did, but to suggest a woman couldn't have done it is just ridiculous.

--->>>I tried that with MY paintbrush, levered it under my shoe and lifted with my hand, and the leverage lifted my foot off the floor, NO BREAK.

Common sense tells you what you call ridiculous, but in actual fact a quality artist brush cannot be broken by a woman with the tip under their foot.

.

 

[UKGuy]

It is possible that the paint brush was already broken. However, suspect statements are evidence and the Ramseys need to be held to what they said in light of the physical evidence. According to Patsy, there were no broken paint brushes in the paint tote prior to JonBenet's death. If Patsy is being truthful about that, it means the offender broke the paint brush during the time JonBenet was killed. Patsy also stated that she never wore that sweater-jacket while painting or while in the basement. Based on Patsy's statements in light of the physical evidence, we can say to a reasonable degree of certainty that the offender broke the paint brush handle near the paint tote during the time JonBenet was killed. Since Patsy didn't have access to the paint tote after police arrival, we can say that Patsy's sweater-jacket fibers had to have been deposited in the paint tote prior to JonBenet being killed or during JonBenet being killed. Patsy's statements of never wearing the sweater-jacket while painting or while in the basement essentially rule out those fibers being deposited in the paint tote prior to JonBenet being killed. The only other option, with forensic basis to support it, is that Patsy's sweater-jacket fibers were deposited into the paint tote during JonBenet being killed. Based on the fiber evidence, we have a forensic basis to say that it was Patsy who broke the paint brush used in the neck ligature.

Tober,
Sure, but you do not know who is telling the truth, either Patsy or the investigators? They may know that the missing paintbrush handle piece was recovered from inside JonBenet, so they may just want to lock Patsy into her version of events. Given Patsy's linkage to the crime-scene her credibility is pretty low.


.

 

[Tober]

--->>>I tried that with MY paintbrush, levered it under my shoe and lifted with my hand, and the leverage lifted my foot off the floor, NO BREAK.

Common sense tells you what you call ridiculous, but in actual fact a quality artist brush cannot be broken by a woman with the tip under their foot.

.

Because you allege to have been unable to break your paint brush, that in no way demonstrates to me that Patsy couldn't have broken the paint brush used in the crime.

 

[BBB167893]

my thought concerns your 2 quotes from Robert Stratbucker. "I've seen Maglite's the size of broadswords. and "Maybe there are flashlights that big".

No no, those were quotes from myself and another poster.

What would be the special circumstance that would cause a person to WANT or NEED such a Maglite?

I'm sure Freud would have a field day with it!

Stratbuckler or whatever his name was just could have been simply wrong, and Lou Smit not necessarily so, because he really did have a lot of professional experience in this line of work. If he was guessing a stun gun, it was, we have to admit, an educated guess. An opinion from one expert, right?

An educated guess is fine, but he never even tried to pursue anything else, even when it all stacked up against him.

 

[Eagle1]

Because you allege to have been unable to break your paint brush, that in no way demonstrates to me that Patsy couldn't have broken the paint brush used in the crime.

Tober, you're a guy, a young one, and not married, right? No sisters either? On what do you base your alleged knowledge of womens' strenth?

Trust me, as well as Camper, and any other women here who bother to reply, NO woman could break the tip off an artist paint brush!!!!!!!!1!111
You've never been a woman. You just don't know, haven't been there or anywhere near there.

There were some wood shards inside JonBenet I remember, so PR was telling the truth that none of her brushes were broken, even if she may have been confused about a lot of other things, as I know I would have been if my child had been killed. I wouldn't have done as well as she did. My kids are part of me just like an arm or a leg. I'd have been dead too, at least mentally.

Sometimes it's hard for my husband, like you, to believe how much stronger guys are than women. But it's verified in the Good Book, "Give honor to the woman as the weaker vessel." It's a fact of life. I've always heard that "a real man" is protective of women for that reason.

 

[Eagle1]

Watercolor brushes are shorter, but PR didn't do watercolor.

This had to be a strong CRIMINAL mind to have broken off the probably-expensive oil painting brush to use in such a way. There were shards right outside the door of the boiler room, and some inside the child. JR is much too mild-mannered to have done anything like that either. He was let go from a job after a year for not having enough "IMPACT" .

Face it, hard as this is for you, the very fact the brush was broken like that proves there was an outsider, maybe a big guy. There are parents who kill, but not these parents. We know them too well. Not Burke either. A 10-yr-old boy wouldn't be strong enough, and just would not be that corrupted at such a young age. Even Leopold and Loeb weren't. Even they apparently didn't think of anything like that. This had to be a seasoned criminal. Or seasoned molester, at least, and in my book that's criminal.