sub shows Brokeback Mtn to 8th graders

  • #201
Oh heck, why did you have to go and say that for? I was really enjoying the things you had to say, matter of fact some was pretty darn brilliant until that comment...Oh well

Judge not lest ye be Judged.

Please note the little g in my use of the word "god" in that particular passage. I wasn't referring to God the Creator, but to what I believe is a man-made god (little g again) of "fire and brimstone."

I don't for a moment believe the actual God who created you and me and the Universe sits around fretting because my partner has the wrong plumbing. And I certainly meant no disrespect to Her or Him (or you).

And while someone has every right to believe her god will condemn me to an eternity of torment, I'm not sure how much respect I can be expected to show for such a (little d this time) deity.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, particularly because I am so happy to meet you and some of the other newer posters today.
 
  • #202
Thank you for the thoughtful response, sherri. (Dear Mods, I hope you'll allow this brief diversion into near-religious territory. And if not, I hope you'll blame me. I asked and I think sherri's response is thoughtful and free of religious rhetoric.)

I don't think you are misreading Leviticus, sherri. (Your dad was, but as you say, that's a different matter.) But since you are obviously quite thoughtful about what you believe, I hope you will consider that the brief prohibition in Leviticus sits among a number of rules that no Christian follows nowadays: prohibition of pork, shell fish, weaving two types of cloth, shaving before church, etc. The prohibition against all non-procreative sexuality in that book makes sense when one considers the Israelites were a tiny tribe surrounded by larger, hostile neighbors. No wonder the author(s) of the book wanted to ban anything that might keep the Jews from increasing their numbers. But low population is hardly a problem today.

Your other point is a quite clear endorsement of loving relationships over meaningless encounters. After 30 years with the same wonderful man, I hope you'll believe me that gays are quite capable of the former. (The town where I live is sort of a "Mecca" for gay couples. You would find many, many couples just like us here.) Just as with heterosexuals, a social climate that favors partnerships helps to promote them.

(Personally, I don't think casual sex is a "sin," per se. And I don't think there is anything wrong with remaining single. But there are special blessings that come to couples and those are as likely to come from God as anywhere else, I reckon.)

Anyway, thank you for the thoughtful answer.
ty for your first point. it is something i have thought of and is why i think there is a chance i am wrong on the matter. not eating shell fish is not because they are evil but at the time could be fatal if under cooked and it was not possible to cook it correctly every time. your second point not so much. casual sex i still se as a sin. i do believe gay couple can marry and have healthy relationships. they can also marry and have totaly screwed up relationships. people are people no matter what lable you wear. til gay people start bleeding green or gain the abilty to fly they are still people like the rest of us. i never doubted your ability to be quite capable of it.
 
  • #203
The Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality - it doesn't truly even have the language to discuss it today that we do today.

There's a great little book called What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality by Daniel Helminiak if you are at all interested in the subject....and if you're not, that's cool too!

scm is right, but that's a longer more complicated discussion. The Bible contains two passages in the OT and about the same number in the NT that appear to condemn homosexual sex acts.

But the Bible says nothing about persons who are sexually oriented toward their same gender because the authors of scripture had never heard of the concept. (Our concept of sexual orientation is linked to our idea that one should marry for love (another concept you won't find much about until early Modern times.)
 
  • #204
I can't speak for Nova, but I do agree with what he said.

That version of God... the petty, frightened one? I've no use for, either.

My version of God? The loving, wise, caring one. The one that formed my soul and Nova's, and didn't make a mistake on either one.

IMO, the petty, frightened one was made in man's image.

This is scary. I swear I hadn't read your post when I replied to sherri.

But this time you get the prize for brevity.
 
  • #205
This is scary. I swear I hadn't read your post when I replied to sherri.

But this time you get the prize for brevity.

Aw... and I was going to give you a "slap" for stating it better than I did.

But I'm getting used to it :)
 
  • #206
ty for your first point. it is something i have thought of and is why i think there is a chance i am wrong on the matter. not eating shell fish is not because they are evil but at the time could be fatal if under cooked and it was not possible to cook it correctly every time. your second point not so much. casual sex i still se as a sin. i do believe gay couple can marry and have healthy relationships. they can also marry and have totaly screwed up relationships. people are people no matter what lable you wear. til gay people start bleeding green or gain the abilty to fly they are still people like the rest of us. i never doubted your ability to be quite capable of it.

Obviously, this is all just food for thought. I don't expect either of us to suddenly change our minds, but I do enjoy exchanging ideas with thoughtful people (and I'm always grateful to find so many here at WS).

Re your second point, maybe I didn't understand it. Since you and I both agree that gay and straight people alike can be loving or hateful partners, how does this affect your view of God's commandments on the subject?
 
  • #207
Actually, your statement wasn't clear except to those of you who traffic in the buzz words of the religious right.

"Lifestyle" = homosexuality, a choice of word deliberately chosen to trivialize some people's deepest feelings and sense of being. In fact, gay people have all sorts of lifestyles, just as straight people do.

Moreover, your suggestion that the sub showing the film is probably a gay person pushing some sort of message is a none-too-sly reference to the concept of a "Gay Agenda," which doesn't exist except in the perverted imaginations of people such as yourself. Gay people are actually and rather famously diverse. Getting us to pursue an organized "agenda" is akin to herding cats. This suggestion is particularly ridiculous in this case, where the sub is a woman. Even if--big IF--she is a lesbian, the film has nothing to do with lesbians (and, in fact, has been criticized by lesbian critics as yet another example of how mainstream culture thinks "gayness" is all about what men do).



Well, sin is certainly the cause of much sorrow. But in the case of this story, the sin in question isn't the love between the two main characters. That love would be nothing but positive in a better context. The sin in Brokeback is the narrow-mindedness and intolerance of people who fear what is different and take refuge in declaring that everyone must live by their arbitrary rules and their rules alone. It is that sin which haunts the main characters and prevents them from forming a healthy bond. It is that sin which ultimately results in the murder of one of the main characters.



Absolutely. But not, in my view, because teens can't know about homosexuality. It isn't a choice and it isn't contagious. This particular film, however, has scenes which young teens may find confusing and embarrassing; confusion and embarrassment are not helpful in the attempt to teach anyone about sex and love.



Some things we choose, certainly. We choose to be honest (or not); we choose to support a partner (or not). We choose to share our love with another (or live a solitary life). We choose to undertake the difficult task of knowing ourselves and another (or we choose to hide behind stereotypes and magical thinking).



Because our natures differ, what is "natural" for you isn't necessarily "natural" for me.

But "natural" is yet another of those right-wing buzz words (see "lifestyle" above), used most often simply to mean whatever the majority of people prefer. Homosexuality and other minority orientations occur in Nature and have occurred throughout human history. They are as "natural" as left-handedness.

Foolishness concerning your judgement towards me personally and those choosing to applaud :clap: (agreeing with your opinion without the name calling is okay).

I would say thanks for the revelation but it's actually a burden for me.
 
  • #208
Obviously, this is all just food for thought. I don't expect either of us to suddenly change our minds, but I do enjoy exchanging ideas with thoughtful people (and I'm always grateful to find so many here at WS).

Re your second point, maybe I didn't understand it. Since you and I both agree that gay and straight people alike can be loving or hateful partners, how does this affect your view of God's commandments on the subject?
many people now gay or straight no longer feel the need for this and in both those cases i think it is the same sin.
here i was speaking of marriage. not the state kind but 2 people who pledge their selves to each other before god. what i was trying to say is if you have sex gay or straight with out this pledge i see that as a sin. any sex outside of this bond would be. i know many gay couples pledge to be faithful to each other and this would not apply to them. notice i am speaking of the spiritual aspect of marriage not the legal 1. i dont think god would check you for a stamp of approval from a political body such as the government.
 
  • #209
Foolishness concerning your judgement towards me personally and those choosing to applaud :clap: (agreeing with your opinion without the name calling is okay).

I would say thanks for the revelation but it's actually a burden for me.

Kook Look, I certainly didn't mean to burden you.

And if I have inadvertently misstated your views, I will be happy to have you set me straight (pun intended).
 
  • #210
here i was speaking of marriage. not the state kind but 2 people who pledge their selves to each other before god. what i was trying to say is if you have sex gay or straight with out this pledge i see that as a sin. any sex outside of this bond would be. i know many gay couples pledge to be faithful to each other and this would not apply to them. notice i am speaking of the spiritual aspect of marriage not the legal 1. i dont think god would check you for a stamp of approval from a political body such as the government.

Got it, sherri, thanks. And I certainly agree God blesses us when we treat one another with kindness and care, whether or not the relationship is sexual.
 
  • #211
Kook Look, I certainly didn't mean to burden you.

And if I have inadvertently misstated your views, I will be happy to have you set me straight (pun intended).


"The Burden is due to my shame" saith the Lord, or should I say a believers shame to keep it in context.

My views have definately been mis-stated, but it would just have to keep getting more religious for some, and more spiritual for me and a true christian.
I've said enough concerning my thoughts and feelings on your post, so no need to continue, for I don't want it to lead to anger or hurt towards another. :angel:

I wanted to add, I would have felt the same way about the teacher having shown a man and woman in a sexual scene too, anything that is sexually driven should be kept in it's proper place and season.
 
  • #212
Obviously, this is all just food for thought. I don't expect either of us to suddenly change our minds,
ok i admit the chances i will change my mind tonight are slim. but food for thought is important. as i continue to learn read and grow the points you make may have a impact on my feelings in the future. i enjoyed the fact we could speak on the matter as adults and not get caught up in any petty argument on the matter. it is a complex subject with hundreds of years of history. if i find the subject leaves me with as many questions as answers i can only imagine what it did for the child here. if at home she hears it is wrong and at school she sees it depicted as social taboo but morally correct and she is 12.... i think this fact alone can cause her some distress. here is again where i am torn. my father would have preferred i never see a interracial couple. if he had his wish then maybe i would have grown up with the same hate filled beliefs he had. on the other hand i dont want a teacher making value judgements on what i teach my child. and for the record i do not teach my child it is wrong. i teach her to read the bible and take from it what she feels speaks to her. but dont i have the right to teach her its wrong if that is what i believe?
 
  • #213
scm is right, but that's a longer more complicated discussion. The Bible contains two passages in the OT and about the same number in the NT that appear to condemn homosexual sex acts.

But the Bible says nothing about persons who are sexually oriented toward their same gender because the authors of scripture had never heard of the concept. (Our concept of sexual orientation is linked to our idea that one should marry for love (another concept you won't find much about until early Modern times.)

Nova, hi!

I wouldn't have shown the movie - I'm a teacher - but my students have certainly seen worse. They are 9th graders.

God created all of us, the mysteries of sexual orientation are known to Him. I do not think He created a group of people so that they could be tormented by the rest of us, imperfect as we all are! I do think there is torment enough in this world without more! My dear BIL struggled so with being gay. I am so glad to know him and other gay friends who have explained their feelings and made me realize this isn't a choice thing - certainly not a sin thing.

Also biblical times were so vastly different. When I read The Red Tent, it gave me a very new perpective on the whys of biblical (OT) edicts. Just my 2cents.

Eve

,
 
  • #214
"The Burden is due to my shame" saith the Lord, or should I say a believers shame to keep it in context.

My views have definately been mis-stated, but it would just have to keep getting more religious for some, and more spiritual for me and a true christian.
I've said enough concerning my thoughts and feelings on your post, so no need to continue, for I don't want it to lead to anger or hurt towards another. :angel:

To the extent I was the one who misstated your views, I apologize, Kool. I do understand we are constrained somewhat by the TOS and perhaps that contributed to the misunderstanding.

I wanted to add, I would have felt the same way about the teacher having shown a man and woman in a sexual scene too, anything that is sexually driven should be kept in it's proper place and season.

I agree. I'm a firm believer in sex education and age 12 is much too late to start (if any of the current stats are to be believed). But there's a big difference between a scientific discussion at school or a moral discussion at home and a Hollywood movie.
 
  • #215
Nova, hi!

I wouldn't have shown the movie - I'm a teacher - but my students have certainly seen worse. They are 9th graders.

God created all of us, the mysteries of sexual orientation are known to Him. I do not think He created a group of people so that they could be tormented by the rest of us, imperfect as we all are! I do think there is torment enough in this world without more! My dear BIL struggled so with being gay. I am so glad to know him and other gay friends who have explained their feelings and made me realize this isn't a choice thing - certainly not a sin thing.

Also biblical times were so vastly different. When I read The Red Tent, it gave me a very new perpective on the whys of biblical (OT) edicts. Just my 2cents.

Eve

,

Hey, Eve! Your $.02 is always priceless to me!
 
  • #216
ok i admit the chances i will change my mind tonight are slim. but food for thought is important. as i continue to learn read and grow the points you make may have a impact on my feelings in the future.

And your remarks on mine, as well. I didn't mean all our discussions are purely academic. I'm influenced by all sorts of ideas from all sorts of sources.
 
  • #217
ok i admit the chances i will change my mind tonight are slim. but food for thought is important. as i continue to learn read and grow the points you make may have a impact on my feelings in the future. i enjoyed the fact we could speak on the matter as adults and not get caught up in any petty argument on the matter. it is a complex subject with hundreds of years of history. if i find the subject leaves me with as many questions as answers i can only imagine what it did for the child here. if at home she hears it is wrong and at school she sees it depicted as social taboo but morally correct and she is 12.... i think this fact alone can cause her some distress. here is again where i am torn. my father would have preferred i never see a interracial couple. if he had his wish then maybe i would have grown up with the same hate filled beliefs he had. on the other hand i dont want a teacher making value judgements on what i teach my child. and for the record i do not teach my child it is wrong. i teach her to read the bible and take from it what she feels speaks to her. but dont i have the right to teach her its wrong if that is what i believe?

Sherri, hi there. I hope it's okay to jump in your conversation with Nova for a sec. I don't mean to be nosy, :) or interject myself, but I can't help but be pulled to you due to the hunger I see in you for the spirit of truth.

We can't get off topic or we could be breaking the rules, but I just want to say, please read your Bible, let it minister to you, for God will speak to you through his Word. It's our own intimate relationship with the Lord when we seek it does he only then begin to open up the scriptures and allow those that truly seek him in truth and spirit will they really see and hear, and not be deceived. Only God can take the wax off the eyes and open the ears, and he only does it for those who truly seek him and have a desire to know him.

I hope this helps, and I hope I don't get into trouble, :crazy:

Your Father taught you alot of truths concerning the Bible, but there was alot of deception in the church for the last 100 years, and only now has the Spirit of God been poured out into the church. This is all scripture. In the Last days, which I feel we are in.

Edited to add, Sherri you not only have the right to teach your daughter your beliefs, but a responsibility to her. I have found if I approach all situations with my children in love, my teachings are not prejudiced, bigotted, hate filled, etc... The Bible teaches this also, to always walk in love, and if we're doing that, we can't err.
 
  • #218
ok i admit the chances i will change my mind tonight are slim. but food for thought is important. as i continue to learn read and grow the points you make may have a impact on my feelings in the future. i enjoyed the fact we could speak on the matter as adults and not get caught up in any petty argument on the matter. it is a complex subject with hundreds of years of history. if i find the subject leaves me with as many questions as answers i can only imagine what it did for the child here. if at home she hears it is wrong and at school she sees it depicted as social taboo but morally correct and she is 12.... i think this fact alone can cause her some distress. here is again where i am torn. my father would have preferred i never see a interracial couple. if he had his wish then maybe i would have grown up with the same hate filled beliefs he had. on the other hand i dont want a teacher making value judgements on what i teach my child. and for the record i do not teach my child it is wrong. i teach her to read the bible and take from it what she feels speaks to her. but dont i have the right to teach her its wrong if that is what i believe?

Of course you have the right to teach her that.

Just like your father had the right to teach you to hate blacks.
 
  • #219
To the extent I was the one who misstated your views, I apologize, Kool. I do understand we are constrained somewhat by the TOS and perhaps that contributed to the misunderstanding.



I agree. I'm a firm believer in sex education and age 12 is much too late to start (if any of the current stats are to be believed). But there's a big difference between a scientific discussion at school or a moral discussion at home and a Hollywood movie.


Your apology is accepted and if I hurt you in anyway please forgive me. I truly just like a good discussion.

The problem I see personally about the sex education is it doesn't need to be taught in that format and understanding. It should be about intimantcy, honor, purity and relationships. The foundation needs to be laid before you get to the actual act, and jumping to it without teaching the good fundamental foundations that God instructs just leads to sorrow eventually, not always appearing in the beginning but it does eventually show it's ugly dark head.
 
  • #220
Nova, hi!

I wouldn't have shown the movie - I'm a teacher - but my students have certainly seen worse. They are 9th graders.

God created all of us, the mysteries of sexual orientation are known to Him. I do not think He created a group of people so that they could be tormented by the rest of us, imperfect as we all are! I do think there is torment enough in this world without more! My dear BIL struggled so with being gay. I am so glad to know him and other gay friends who have explained their feelings and made me realize this isn't a choice thing - certainly not a sin thing.

Also biblical times were so vastly different. When I read The Red Tent, it gave me a very new perpective on the whys of biblical (OT) edicts. Just my 2cents.

Eve

,

Hiya Eve, :blowkiss:

Gosh, I just LOVE that book...should be required reading for all women!
 

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