sub shows Brokeback Mtn to 8th graders

[narlacat]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. My mom absolutely didn't hate blacks. As a child, her best friend was black and I never heard her comment on anyone's skin color -- BUT she was totally against interracial marriage.

I would like to say that I've learned alot on this thread and I'm glad everyone has remained (pretty) respectful. I plan to get the book "What the Bible has to say about homosexuality" and look forward to reading it. I won't get "The Red Tent" since it's a fictional work.

It says it's wrong and if it doesn't say it man changed the story to say it did-

People who have something against gays are the ones with something wrong with them which is ironic as they are the ones saying something is wrong with gay people-

 

[Shazza]

What happened to the saying "Love thy Neighbour", who cares what colour, religion, or other beliefs people live by. Everyone is human, I was taught to treat everyone equally and have taught my children the same. It takes a lot of different people to make the world an interesting place to be, if we were all the same, and believed in the same things, how boring. Love others as you would love yourself.

 

[narlacat]

Good idea, and if you haven't already, do read the Bible concerning homosexuality, no human arthor can give you a revelation concerning Gods word as good as God. But material is always helpful in getting a bigger understanding.

There are so many dimensions, dark sides concerning this subject that is often not known or discussed. Just like adultery, etc... the real pain and suffering is not often told concerning these type of immoral sexual sins.

I believe if people knew and could see more into the consequences of these behaviors and choices they would reconsider some of their actions. The damage is far greater than we know and it always comes back to revisit us.

Oh geez- have I got this right? you are putting adultery and homosexuality in the same bucket?

Some people just don't give me faith in mankind-

 

[narlacat]

What happened to the saying "Love thy Neighbour", who cares what colour, religion, or other beliefs people live by. Everyone is human, I was taught to treat everyone equally and have taught my children the same. It takes a lot of different people to make the world an interesting place to be, if we were all the same, and believed in the same things, how boring. Love others as you would love yourself.

I was taught equality too- but some piggies think they are more equal than others

That's it Shaz- it's takes all sorts- different strokes for different blokes

 

[Shazza]

I was taught equality too- but some piggies think they are more equal than others

That's it Shaz- it's takes all sorts- different strokes for different blokes

Too right Narla, I dont understand how some people think that they are better than anyone else. We are all the equal and have the same rights. I think some people misinterpret or misquote what they read in the bible.

 

[southcitymom]

It says it's wrong and if it doesn't say it man changed the story to say it did-

People who have something against gays are the ones with something wrong with them which is ironic as they are the ones saying something is wrong with gay people-

When read in context, the Bible does not condemn homosexuality, just as the Bible does not condone slavery or racism. I understand that certain studiers of the Bible have used it to support both of these contentions, but it's simply untrue.

I feel like this is a necessary point to make because few other books have shaped my life more dramatically and positively than the Bible, and I am not comfortable letting untruths about it stand. Any wisdom contained in its pages is available to everyone, without exception. Using its pages to exclude people we consider "lesser" (or sinners, as some would call them) is repugnant to me.

Please let me state that I understand and respect that others have different views in this area and I am not trying to start a debate; I just feel compelled to point out a different view.

I agree with Kool that true understanding in this matter comes from reading the Bible with a spirit open to letting any pertinent meanings be revealed by a loving God. It has also helped me (and countless theologians and laypersons WAY more erudite than me) to understand the many contexts in which the words of the Bible were written.

 

[IrishMist]

Wow, Irish. Where were you raised if you don't mind me asking?

My great great grandfather was Secretary of the Confederacy during part of the Civil War, so - as you can imagine - I was raised in a family with strong views on race relations in the South!

My grandmother and grandfather called the African Americans who helped them keep house and yard, the "servants" - not a very far cry from slaves, is it?

As I got older, I started to realize the subtle and not so subtle racism my parents and other elders embraced. It never bled off onto me or my sisters and for that I am deeply grateful.

Hi SCM. I was born in SE Michigan, and have mostly grown up here. From when I was 9 or so, until I turned 13, I spent half the year in the Chattanooga, TN/Rome GA area.

And the racism was anything but subtle! As Sherri says:

you are correct. my father hated every1. gay black Jewish asian catholic....

My father hates. I've posted on here before that I didn't find out we were almost 100% Irish until I was well into my 20's. My father told us we were French- because he hated "Micks" too! :doh:

 

[IrishMist]

Good idea, and if you haven't already, do read the Bible concerning homosexuality, no human arthor can give you a revelation concerning Gods word as good as God. But material is always helpful in getting a bigger understanding.

There are so many dimensions, dark sides concerning this subject that is often not known or discussed. Just like adultery, etc... the real pain and suffering is not often told concerning these type of immoral sexual sins.

I believe if people knew and could see more into the consequences of these behaviors and choices they would reconsider some of their actions. The damage is far greater than we know and it always comes back to revisit us.

Homosexuality does NOT equate with adultry! :doh:

But why be so cryptic, Kool? I'm curious. What is the real pain and suffering from these "immoral sexual sins"?

Just what are the consequences of these "behaviors and choices"?

What damage do they cause?

 

[Marthatex]

that is sorta my point. even if my morals are wrong does a teacher have the right to ignore them? i am sure a teacher would think it is wrong if i taught my child to be a bigot but can she moraly work against that? 50 years ago you still had teachers who thought you shold seperate the races with sudents whose parents did not agree. no teacher ever stepped up and taught me what a dumb a$$ my father was. if you teach a child to think for their self they will find the right path most the time. if more time was spent on teaching children to do what nova and i did today then i feel the kids would be better off. teach a child to show respect for others and to enjoy the very act of learning and let them find their own path. be lazy and pop i a tape and teach them to sue.

I agree that children should be guided and asked questions, read for themselves and helped to form their own conclusions; which hopefully, will be civilized ones. But parental influence is very strong.

If a child raises his hand and says, "but My Mom and Dad still believe in Slavery!", should I teach to that? I would Probably say, "Oh", and let him explain the reasons why. ( he might even be mistaken or exxagerating)

Then I would go on to explain our laws now, the moral beliefs behind those laws, and how nowadays our country does not believe in Slavery, though some slavery does exist illegally.

A teacher should and has to walk a fine line, where moral beliefs come under discussion.

To me the learning the Bible falls under Church or church schools, but our moral beliefs which often come from the Bible overflow into the classroom (do unto others. the Ten Commandments), and we often teach by them whether we realize it or not.

 

[Ntegrity]

Homosexuality does NOT equate with adultry! :doh:

But why be so cryptic, Kool? I'm curious. What is the real pain and suffering from these "immoral sexual sins"?

Just what are the consequences of these "behaviors and choices"?

What damage do they cause?

umm, I think she might mean AIDS and other STDs for instance. Just a guess.

 

[IrishMist]

that is sorta my point. even if my morals are wrong does a teacher have the right to ignore them? i am sure a teacher would think it is wrong if i taught my child to be a bigot but can she moraly work against that? 50 years ago you still had teachers who thought you shold seperate the races with sudents whose parents did not agree. no teacher ever stepped up and taught me what a dumb a$$ my father was. if you teach a child to think for their self they will find the right path most the time. if more time was spent on teaching children to do what nova and i did today then i feel the kids would be better off. teach a child to show respect for others and to enjoy the very act of learning and let them find their own path. be lazy and pop i a tape and teach them to sue.

I was agreeing with you. Both you and your father have a right to teach your children what you believe to be moral/immoral. Now, whether you are right in what you teach your children is a different point. Whether it "sticks" for your kids is another. What my dad taught me didn't make sense to me-- just didn't sit right with me. I am a polar opposite to him in my views.

(Please note, I'm using you and your father as an example, but meaning everyone.)

As far as teachers, IMO, church is for religion, home is for moral guidance, and school is for the mechanics of things. You might teach your child 2 + 2 = 7, and of course, the teacher is going to teach otherwise. Your child is going to look at the difference in those teachings, and pick the answer that makes the most sense to him/her.

I think most kids will find what "fits" for them.

I especially agree with the statement I put in bold. To me, there's a big difference between raising your kids, and just letting them get older in your presence.

 

[IrishMist]

umm, I think she might mean AIDS and other STDs for instance. Just a guess.

I considered that, Ntegrity, but she is equating homosexuality with these "immoral sins." If every person that was a homosexual had AIDS and/or an STD-- or if they were the only ones to get them, I could see that.

But they're not and they aren't, so I don't think it's that.

 

[Ntegrity]

Maybe to her it is an immoral act. Not everyone puts their blessing on homosexuality if it conflicts with their understanding of right and wrong. I must admit I still struggle with it myself, which is why I plan to read the book mentioned earlier. My ideas are based on what I know so far, but I'm willing to consider other opinions -- and maybe even adopt those as my own.

EDITED TO ADD:

My mother-in-law (who died recently) was a Bible thumper. She was the most self-righteous, rigid, closed-minded and hateful person I've ever met. She thought she was doing "God's work" by condemning homosexuals, adulterers, alcoholics, etc., etc. Thanks to her, I'm more willing than ever to listen to opinions other than my own. My prayer is that I'll never, ever end up like her!!

 

[IrishMist]

Maybe to her it is an immoral act. Not everyone puts their blessing on homosexuality if it conflicts with their understanding of right and wrong. I must admit I still struggle with it myself, which is why I plan to read the book mentioned earlier. My ideas are based on what I know so far, but I'm willing to consider other opinions -- and maybe even adopt those as my own.

EDITED TO ADD:

My mother-in-law (who died recently) was a Bible thumper. She was the most self-righteous, rigid, closed-minded and hateful person I've ever met. She thought she was doing "God's work" by condemning homosexuals, adulterers, alcoholics, etc., etc. Thanks to her, I'm more willing than ever to listen to opinions other than my own. My prayer is that I'll never, ever end up like her!!

Well, you know where I hope you end up

My views on homosexuality seem so crystal clear to me that I'm always interested when there's an opposing view. It's as if I said "we breathe air," then someone else said "no, we don't." I'd be a little shocked, but interested in their point of view. Interested in trying to figure out where they are coming from.

As far as your Bible thumping MIL, that's the kind of motivation I've had all my life to try to be as fair-minded, honest, and accepting as possible. To try to see things as they really are.

I'm having trouble getting my thoughts into words here.

 

[Ntegrity]

No, you're not. You said it perfectly. :blowkiss:

 

[IrishMist]

No, you're not. You said it perfectly. :blowkiss:

Thanks.

 

[2sisters]

In my husbands school all movies have to be approved first by administration b/c a teacher showed the move The Sweetest Thing to her class of 9th graders.

 

[Nova]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. My mom absolutely didn't hate blacks. As a child, her best friend was black and I never heard her comment on anyone's skin color -- BUT she was totally against interracial marriage.

"Hate" is perhaps too strong word, but I don't think one can hold that view without a good deal of racial prejudice. But one certainly can be friends with a member of another race, even while considering that person inferior or an exception to the inferiority of their "group."

 

[Nova]

There are so many dimensions, dark sides concerning this subject that is often not known or discussed. Just like adultery, etc... the real pain and suffering is not often told concerning these type of immoral sexual sins.

I believe if people knew and could see more into the consequences of these behaviors and choices they would reconsider some of their actions. The damage is far greater than we know and it always comes back to revisit us.

Where is the evidence for your belief on the secret, untold costs of the sin of homosexuality? Or is it just something you randomly choose to believe, like "the moon is made of green cheese."

 

[Nova]

that is sorta my point. even if my morals are wrong does a teacher have the right to ignore them? i am sure a teacher would think it is wrong if i taught my child to be a bigot but can she moraly work against that? 50 years ago you still had teachers who thought you shold seperate the races with sudents whose parents did not agree. no teacher ever stepped up and taught me what a dumb a$$ my father was. if you teach a child to think for their self they will find the right path most the time. if more time was spent on teaching children to do what nova and i did today then i feel the kids would be better off. teach a child to show respect for others and to enjoy the very act of learning and let them find their own path. be lazy and pop i a tape and teach them to sue.

sherri, I've certainly confronted this issue as a teacher myself (though I was teaching young adults). I don't think a teacher should tell a kid her parents are morons for what they believe. But when it comes to views of how we treat and interact with others, teachers also have a responsibility to present views other than the very narrow ones we have discussed here.

I feel especially strongly that a teacher has an obligation to question students on why they think what they think. Doing so is the only way to help them think, and ultimately that is the purpose of education.