GUILTY Thailand - David Miller, 24, & Hannah Witheridge, 23, Koh Tao, 15 Sep 2014

[CoverMeCagney]

It was about 5 hours. Last seen around 1am, found around 6am.

 

[ChuckieD]

Ah right, thanks. I'm sure I read it was much longer. The last CCTV of David was 0156, I think.

I remember in the Sally Anne Bowman case they asked all local males to give a DNA sample on the basis it would be destroyed if not a match and the turn out was huge. I wonder if that would work in a place like Koh Tao.

 

[ChuckieD]

@0.28 seems like a "stare-down" of sorts between H group and other group with blonde female, looks somewhat tough, black pants, shiny purse slung to left side....
Meanwhile, they all appear to look at H, who appears to be pulled a bit by her dark haired female companion , who then looks in purse, H seems hesitant...


@0.44 Is that the same blond female in long black pants seen earlier with 2 males on cctv 0.28 ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2B0_L-qUKQ

Following on from your comments, the girl Hannah semi bumps shoulders with is the same girl who David is walking next to and talking to in the second clip of him. I assume those girls and that group of men have been spoken to or at least looked for even though they now say they are looking for asian males.

That picture that flashes up at 0039 really freaks me out :blushing:

 

[east2west]

It was about 5 hours. Last seen around 1am, found around 6am.

I've thought since finding out the murder weapon was a large garden hoe , that the crime was comitted by a local. NO tourist would be packing a utensil of that size on holiday nor would they be looking for one as a souvenir. The perpetrator(s) were either enroute to work as laborers or had already finished thier days work and had remained around the beach area watching the tourists and perhaps as well had indulged in the drink while "people watching". The alleged murder accessories of a garden hoe and a pipe of some sort indict to me these horrific crimes were committed by local migrant workers. Jmo moo.

 

[gia2]

I've thought since finding out the murder weapon was a large garden hoe , that the crime was comitted by a local. NO tourist would be packing a utensil of that size on holiday nor would they be looking for one as a souvenir. The perpetrator(s) were either enroute to work as laborers or had already finished thier days work and had remained around the beach area watching the tourists and perhaps as well had indulged in the drink while "people watching". The alleged murder accessories of a garden hoe and a pipe of some sort indict to me these horrific crimes were committed by local migrant workers. Jmo moo.

It has been mentioned in the last week that the hoe could have been left in one of the gardens (hotel or small garden with the statue near where the attacks took place). I've not seen any mention though about one being taken from one of these gardens. Surely if you were a grounds keeper in the area you'd have checked whether one you'd left out was missing and reported it.

 

[cuffem]

It has been mentioned in the last week that the hoe could have been left in one of the gardens (hotel or small garden with the statue near where the attacks took place). I've not seen any mention though about one being taken from one of these gardens. Surely if you were a grounds keeper in the area you'd have checked whether one you'd left out was missing and reported it.

I hope you don't mind me jumping in. I thought I had read that the hoe could have come from stoking the fire at a party on the beach that night. I can't seem to find the post.

 

[hunch77]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2763277/Was-British-backpacker-trying-help-woman-distress-New-evidence-suggests-David-Miller-coming-aid-Hannah-Witheridge-killed.html
The article states that David is thought to have returned to the hotel at approximately 1am, but went back out to find Hannah.

Hannah was out that evening with her two British female friends and two British men. David's two friends (Christopher and James Ware) are thought to have been out with the two men earlier that night.

Also, the person running in the CCTV images might be a woman who discoverd the bodies.

Glad we are starting to get some information about the timeline of events that night.

I read the above article and also this one:- http://www.andrew-drummond.com/2014/09/thai-murders-may-be-copycat.html.

I don't think the recent tragedy in koh tao was the result of a "copycat" killer. I feel strongly that there is a possibility the same people are responsible for katherine's death as well as Hannah and Davids. This means that either the men convicted in 2006 were fall guys or else there were others with them and involved in her death who were protected and got off scot free and are at large currently.This information has bothered me for years but i didn't know who to tell or how it could possibly make any difference. I was pretty frightened by the enormity of it honestly.This is why:-

When I was visiting Koh Phangan(nearest island to koh tao) just a few months after the tragic murder of Katherine Horton in neighbouring koh samui in 2006 I was told something by a local who seemed genuine and had looked out for my much younger sister and myself in a consistently caring and polite way during our holiday. He was very nervous and reluctant to tell me but I pushed him hard to tell me because I feared for the safety of my much younger sister who was insisting that she wanted to go without me(as i was unwell) to a late night bar party in the next bay along from where we were staying. He believed that if my sister went to this party she would be in imminent and specific danger. My sis and I were discussing what she wanted to do and i was objecting 'cos I was not happy for her to go without me and with people she hardly knew. He had overheard and pulled me aside to tell me I was right and that I absolutely mustn't let her go to the party without me and because there was a small group of "very very bad dangerous men" who often went to that particular bar and that they "knew" who my sister was and basically that they were after her specifically as a chosen target. He was not talking about some guys who fancied her. He was talking about men who would, given the opportunity, use violence and force. This is when I asked him about the "killers" of katherine horton who had so quickly been found, tried and sentenced. I had felt suspicious of the speed with which these suspects had been produced out of thin air at the time and suspected it had been done to protect the tourism industry.I had to prise all this info out of him cos at first all he would say was that she mustn't go to the party without me, without telling me exactly why. I could tell there was some very dark back story motivating the intensity of his warnings to me. When I mentioned the recent koh samui murder, his facial expression really changed. Basically he seriously inferred that the fisherman who were tried for Katherine's murder were not the killers at all and that the killers were definitely still at large, implying they were part of the group of men that were interested in my sister or at the very least certainly affiliated with them.

The implicit suggestion was that they had found/forced?/made a deal with a couple of guys to agree to be the fall guys, either for money or under threat of death or both and those are the guys currently in prison for killing Katherine. Who are "they"? I do not know but what I do know is that these islands are basically run by powerful mafia. They control how and when and what drugs come in and go out. Boats transport tourists and fishermen fish from them but the most money to be made is from the drug transportation between islands. The mafia operate funded by drug money and extortion. They operate outside the law and can also buy the law, like any mafia anywhere in the world. The sort of henchman/underlings who form part of this network and/or people who sell/are addicted to heroin and meth are the sort of people who can commit an horrific opportunistic crime and potentially get away with it. People who operate outside the law and control it to some degree through power, threats and bribes.

I think it's possible the killers of hannah and david are affiliated to or actually are the same ones who took Katherine. I think they and/or their psychotic colleagues have waited 8 years for the chance to do something similar again. Katherine's supposed murderers were sentenced to death within weeks and then got their death sentences quashed on appeal within months?!!? why???
If they were "fall guys" it's likely there would have been an arrangement to sentence them to death with a guaranteed reprieve at a later date that is quietly reported after the media spotlight has waned a little.(killers caught!!real killers unidentified!tourists not scared and will keep coming!!drug business still booming as tourist numbers don't reduce?)
Now there are two articles mentioning the "copycat theory" so I can't be the only one thinking this! Or maybe the "powers that be" know that they didn't have the right people the first time around in 2006 or that they only got 2 of them when in fact there were several more-a group of them?I wish the fbi would get involved or that the government would pull down this corruption.

Thailand is an amazing country and I have experienced great kindness and generosity from many thai people. I found that the vast majority of them want to make tourists very happy and help them enjoy their culture and country. The downside of this keenness to please is an aversion to admitting when something really is deeply deeply wrong. The person who told me the information I have shared here was clearly terrified to have this conversation with me at the time. He may have been at direct risk himself if people had known he had spoken with me. it felt like he was telling me a secret.I am grateful that he valued human life more than "keeping face" by helping me to protect my sister. I really think we probably were in more danger than we could even realise as naive tourists, overwhelmed by the beauty and exoticness of island life.

The islands are a small community.Everyone knows everybody else. Someone with great courage in their heart needs to come forwards with what they know about the perpetrators of these terrible crimes and the thai government should publically pledge to protect any witness or informant from the island mafia.

I am truly sorry for the tragic loss of katherine and of Hannah and David and I'm sorry that there was not a similar person near them who was able to warn them they were in danger so their murders could have been prevented. I feel true compassion for their families. I don't wish to add to their pain. I would like to see justice for all three of these young lives taken so horrifically.

 

[Lovejac]

The male DNA found on the cigarette matches one of the DNA samples taken from Hannah, so there is only DNA from two Asian males at the scene (based on what I've read anyway).

I'm not sure where the suspicion of a female being involved comes from. I don't believe any unknown female DNA has been recovered so far. It seems police are looking into females due to footprints found at the scene. They're asking women to leave a footprint in the sand and have their photo taken with the print. It's very strange if that is the only evidence of a female's involvement, I assume they have more clues that we haven't been told about yet.

I read an article a few days ago (I'll try and find it) which suggested that David and Hannah were walking along the beach and attacked. David fought with the attacker(s) and Hannah was able to flee, only to be caught up with and taken to a more secluded area behind rocks to be assaulted and killed. David was then dragged into the water. This was the only story which I found which gave this sort of description. I assume this story was based on the footprints found at the scene (or maybe the journalists are just filling in the gaps with speculation in the absence of information!) Perhaps police aren't sure if these were Hannah's or an attackers so are just going down this as a potential lead.

Realistically, what could the police assertain from a matching footprint in sand? A small footprint could come from a female, young male or small adult male. They could be from earlier or after the attacks. Perhaps they closely follow those of the suspected attackers and that is why they're believed to be linked to the crime.
Those of you who've seen the scene photos, did you see any possible bloody footprints at the scene?

If no female DNA was recovered from the crime scene then I'm further perplexed as to why they are gathering samples of DNA from females. I had read about footprints found at the scene but am wondering why they suspect that they are female footprints.

 

[gia2]

I hope you don't mind me jumping in. I thought I had read that the hoe could have come from stoking the fire at a party on the beach that night. I can't seem to find the post.

I read that it could have come from a firepit on the beach as well, but I just googled to find a link and couldn't find one! Any chance you read it on the Thai visa form rather than a news artcle? I didn't serch the forum but read alot of posts on here, so perhaps that is where the suggestion came from.

I've been really confused as to why the police have been focusing so much on footprints. The link posted above by hunch77 http://www.andrew-drummond.com/2014/09/thai-murders-may-be-copycat.html states

They have also found footprints in a local garden where it is believed the hoe was taken from, and have been checking locals. And they have also taken into their possession a piece of wood which may have been a second murder weapon – as all the blood on a garden hoe found near the scene belonged to Hannah.

This helps explain the footprint search. Even more interesting is the possibility that a piece of wood and not the metal bar searched for by police could be the weapon used to attack David. If the only murder weapons actually are the hoe and piece of wood and these were located close to the crime scene, that is perhaps suggestive of opportunistic, unprepared murderers. They certainly weren't worried about their DNA being found on Hannah's body and it was David's body which was placed in the sea, not Hannah's in an attempt to wash away evidence.

I wonder if the police are still looking for the metal bar.

 

[gia2]

I read the above article and also this one:- http://www.andrew-drummond.com/2014/09/thai-murders-may-be-copycat.html.

I don't think the recent tragedy in koh tao was the result of a "copycat" killer. I feel strongly that there is a possibility the same people are responsible for katherine's death as well as Hannah and Davids. This means that either the men convicted in 2006 were fall guys or else there were others with them and involved in her death who were protected and got off scot free and are at large currently.This information has bothered me for years but i didn't know who to tell or how it could possibly make any difference. I was pretty frightened by the enormity of it honestly.This is why:-

When I was visiting Koh Phangan(nearest island to koh tao) just a few months after the tragic murder of Katherine Horton in neighbouring koh samui in 2006 I was told something by a local who seemed genuine and had looked out for my much younger sister and myself in a consistently caring and polite way during our holiday. He was very nervous and reluctant to tell me but I pushed him hard to tell me because I feared for the safety of my much younger sister who was insisting that she wanted to go without me(as i was unwell) to a late night bar party in the next bay along from where we were staying. He believed that if my sister went to this party she would be in imminent and specific danger. My sis and I were discussing what she wanted to do and i was objecting 'cos I was not happy for her to go without me and with people she hardly knew. He had overheard and pulled me aside to tell me I was right and that I absolutely mustn't let her go to the party without me and because there was a small group of "very very bad dangerous men" who often went to that particular bar and that they "knew" who my sister was and basically that they were after her specifically as a chosen target. He was not talking about some guys who fancied her. He was talking about men who would, given the opportunity, use violence and force. This is when I asked him about the "killers" of katherine horton who had so quickly been found, tried and sentenced. I had felt suspicious of the speed with which these suspects had been produced out of thin air at the time and suspected it had been done to protect the tourism industry.I had to prise all this info out of him cos at first all he would say was that she mustn't go to the party without me, without telling me exactly why. I could tell there was some very dark back story motivating the intensity of his warnings to me. When I mentioned the recent koh samui murder, his facial expression really changed. Basically he seriously inferred that the fisherman who were tried for Katherine's murder were not the killers at all and that the killers were definitely still at large, implying they were part of the group of men that were interested in my sister or at the very least certainly affiliated with them.

The implicit suggestion was that they had found/forced?/made a deal with a couple of guys to agree to be the fall guys, either for money or under threat of death or both and those are the guys currently in prison for killing Katherine. Who are "they"? I do not know but what I do know is that these islands are basically run by powerful mafia. They control how and when and what drugs come in and go out. Boats transport tourists and fishermen fish from them but the most money to be made is from the drug transportation between islands. The mafia operate funded by drug money and extortion. They operate outside the law and can also buy the law, like any mafia anywhere in the world. The sort of henchman/underlings who form part of this network and/or people who sell/are addicted to heroin and meth are the sort of people who can commit an horrific opportunistic crime and potentially get away with it. People who operate outside the law and control it to some degree through power, threats and bribes.

I think it's possible the killers of hannah and david are affiliated to or actually are the same ones who took Katherine. I think they and/or their psychotic colleagues have waited 8 years for the chance to do something similar again. Katherine's supposed murderers were sentenced to death within weeks and then got their death sentences quashed on appeal within months?!!? why???
If they were "fall guys" it's likely there would have been an arrangement to sentence them to death with a guaranteed reprieve at a later date that is quietly reported after the media spotlight has waned a little.(killers caught!!real killers unidentified!tourists not scared and will keep coming!!drug business still booming as tourist numbers don't reduce?)
Now there are two articles mentioning the "copycat theory" so I can't be the only one thinking this! Or maybe the "powers that be" know that they didn't have the right people the first time around in 2006 or that they only got 2 of them when in fact there were several more-a group of them?I wish the fbi would get involved or that the government would pull down this corruption.

Thailand is an amazing country and I have experienced great kindness and generosity from many thai people. I found that the vast majority of them want to make tourists very happy and help them enjoy their culture and country. The downside of this keenness to please is an aversion to admitting when something really is deeply deeply wrong. The person who told me the information I have shared here was clearly terrified to have this conversation with me at the time. He may have been at direct risk himself if people had known he had spoken with me. it felt like he was telling me a secret.I am grateful that he valued human life more than "keeping face" by helping me to protect my sister. I really think we probably were in more danger than we could even realise as naive tourists, overwhelmed by the beauty and exoticness of island life.

The islands are a small community.Everyone knows everybody else. Someone with great courage in their heart needs to come forwards with what they know about the perpetrators of these terrible crimes and the thai government should publically pledge to protect any witness or informant from the island mafia.

I am truly sorry for the tragic loss of katherine and of Hannah and David and I'm sorry that there was not a similar person near them who was able to warn them they were in danger so their murders could have been prevented. I feel true compassion for their families. I don't wish to add to their pain. I would like to see justice for all three of these young lives taken so horrifically.

I remember reading a lot about what happened to Katherine, it was absolutely terrible. The details I read about Katherine's case have always stayed fresh in my mind. The circumstances around the arrests, court appearence and sentencing was strange as was the DNA samples being conducted so quickly. That being said there was DNA evidence against the men sentenced as well as evidence from those who they worked with. I agree there are similarities (victim being ambushed, hit about the head, being placed into the sea, rape) but I think this may be more to do with the location of the murders. The beach allows a perp to locate and watch a tourist,and there are a lot of places for a perp to hide to catch a victim by suprise. The sea is also a convenient place to bump a body and also may get rid of some evidence.

I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest the same men killed Hannah and David though. Sadly it seems there are quite a number of attacks against tourists in Thailand, most of which don't end in murder of course.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

Thai general apologizes for bikini comment after Brits’ deaths

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...bikini-comment-brits-deaths-article-1.1946859

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

With the murders being so gruesome, there's no doubt this perp has done this before. Police need to check for similarities to past crimes to help find this murderer.
And I do think whoever did this was high on a hallucinogenic meth-like substance.
If not caught now, I feel he will repeat this type of crime again.
His method is like his "fingerprint" or "DNA" & yes, I feel the locals know who is responsible but fear him & his associates.

Moo

 

[sar2them1984]

http://news.sky.com/story/1339645/thai-murders-sexual-jealousy-may-be-motive

Police looking at yet another angle. I've not heard about the argument in the bar before

 

[dotr]

Some drug may have been involved and LE are looking for a female seen running on cctv..

"Murdered British backpacker Hannah Witheridge may have been raped by two local men, police in Thailand fear.

DNA found on her body came from two unknown Asian men, tests revealed yesterday.

Detectives are also probing reports that she and fellow British victim David Miller , 24, were involved in a row in a bar with a local gangster, who had tried to chat Hannah up.

But there were fears the killer may already have fled the island of Koh Tao where the pair died".


"And they are probing claims a drug called "ya ba" may have been involved in the murder. The pill is available in certain bars on the island along with crystal meth. Thailand's police chief Somyot Poompanmoung - who flew to Koh Tao to oversee the investigation last night - said the victims had been tested for drugs but he refused to disclose the results "out of respect for the family".

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thailand-beach-murders-hannah-witheridge-4297566#ixzz3DxCAbWvT
Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook

 

[sar2them1984]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-killed-Locals-claim-no-one-speak-scared.html

This clears up Davids actions - after spending the evening in a bar he returned home with his friend *stopping for a toasted sandwich on the way*. He later left his hotel to meet Hannah and a friend at the AC nightclub

 

[dotr]

http://news.sky.com/story/1339645/thai-murders-sexual-jealousy-may-be-motive


"Thai Murders: 'Sexual Jealousy' May Be Motive
Officers have asked British police to speak friends of the murdered backpackers about relationships they may have had on Koh Hao."


" Police Colonel Kissana Phathanacharoen said: "We have asked the Met Police to go back and ask their friends if they can help with any further information."

He added: "We still believe sexual jealously is at the heart of this crime.

"We are aware of reports they may have been involved in a row in a bar with a Thai man and we are currently investigating."

 

[Lovejac]

http://news.sky.com/story/1339645/thai-murders-sexual-jealousy-may-be-motive

Police looking at yet another angle. I've not heard about the argument in the bar before

A poster here mentioned a rumor they heard about an argument after someone was showing some unwanted attention to Hannah.

 

[sar2them1984]

Thanks Lovejac. Worded incorrectly. I had heard about it via foruns but nothing had been in thw press wih regards to it. I gope police have traced the male with the no 9 t shirt. I think he's important

 

[Lola68]

If Hannah did share a cigarette with one of her attackers (i.e. DNA not transferred by saliva etc) this would discount the first theory - which I'm veering away from anyway as it was based on CCTV footage that turned out not to be David and Hannah. If she did share a cigarette, then this would suggest she knew her killer(s) or at least felt comfortable enough to stay with them to smoke. Could she have been on her way home on her own, fancied a cigarette, saw some locals smoking and asked them for one, and it went wrong when she turned down their advances? Which might explain the aggression that seemed to be directed at her in particular. And David came on the scene during/after the attack, was beaten unconscious and left to drown, then dragged closer to Hannah's body and stripped to make it look like they were together on the beach when it happened.


I agree the police must have a pretty detailed timeline of both of their whereabouts from their friends - the fact that they're not releasing this is significant I think. I remember reading somewhere that they had more information that they couldn't share with the media. But that could equally have been an excuse to deflect criticism that they've mishandled the investigation.

According to the latest on DM, Hannah and David left the club together - suggesting scenario 1 is actually the most likely. But I still don't get why Hannah's DNA is on the cigarette - unless both she and David knew the killer(s) and stopped for a smoke, before something went wrong. Or if Hannah was specifically targeted they could have been set up - while smoking, someone approaches from behind and hits David on the head but doesn't knock him out immediately (or he regains consciousness) and during the fight the metal bar or whatever weapon they use on David is lost in the sea so they need to find something else to kill Hannah with.

The reports of an argument with a local gangster are pretty scary and resonate with the Hunch77's post about his sister being targeted. No one's going to speak out if the mafia are involved.

 

[sar2them1984]

http://news.sky.com/story/1339645/thai-murders-beautiful-hannah-brought-home

Hannah has been brought home. No mention of David