The actual vs. desired outcome

[Holdontoyourhat]

By they way, you now say "unsourced fibers" found in JonBenet's bed. Last week you said they were from the ligature cord used around her neck. What changed your mind?

My post did not read "unsourced fibers." It read "unsourced cord fibers," as in fibers from the unsourced cord.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

That simply sounds silly

Yeah, you're right. The FF would not travel all that way just to kill JBR. Besides, the RN does have that remains remark, where JR is supposed to not expect the return of JBR's remains. So probably the original intention was to kidnap JBR for long term, and use the RN to throw JR and LE off the track.

 

[BOESP]

The fact the parents were in the house adds nothing to any argument whatsoever. They had a legitimate reason to be there. As do their fibers, all over JBR and her stuff. Oh, but not the cord. It had no legitimate reason to be there. It kinda came and went with the murder. Very much like the child garroting, sexually assaulting, strangling, headbashing, ransom note writing personality, which also came and went with the murder. Maybe you've come to think the parents flick that personality on and off like a switch.

Many of the things that are closest to the murder, came and went with the murder. What is that an earmark of?

Intruder.

Actually, I think Patsy was an expert actress which, in my view, does mean she could "flick that personality on and off like a switch."

The fact the parents were in the house is a red flag to anyone trained in criminal investigation. Throwing in such a variety of elements as you have listed above indicates staging by someone who thought they were making it look like a crime scene. Instead, it looked like what it was ... amateur staging.

I don't understand your last two comments that I underlined above.

I truly would appreciate it if you'd reference that Ressler article. I'd like to read it for myself. If it is the same one I furnished the link to a couple of weeks ago, then would you please confirm that is so?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Actually, I think Patsy was an expert actress which, in my view, does mean she could "flick that personality on and off like a switch."

The fact the parents were in the house is a red flag to anyone trained in criminal investigation. Throwing in such a variety of elements as you have listed above indicates staging by someone who thought they were making it look like a crime scene. Instead, it looked like what it was ... amateur staging.

I don't understand your last two comments that I underlined above.

I truly would appreciate it if you'd reference that Ressler article. I'd like to read it for myself. If it is the same one I furnished the link to a couple of weeks ago, then would you please confirm that is so?

Please explain how you think JBR was killed. Accidental blow to the head, accidental strangulation, or what? If you want you could bring up the link to the article and I'll see if its the same one.

 

[BOESP]

My post did not read "unsourced fibers." It read "unsourced cord fibers," as in fibers from the unsourced cord.

Your original wording was ambiguous. Thanks for clearing up the meaning. I'd still like a source that shows the fibers in JonBenet's bed are the same as those from the "unsourced cord" that I assume you mean was used to make the ligature device. Have I misunderstood again what you are saying, i.e. the fibers in JonBenet's bed were consistent with the fiber from which the ligature cord was made? I have looked and looked for a source on this and can not find one.

 

[BOESP]

Please explain how you think JBR was killed. Accidental blow to the head, accidental strangulation, or what? If you want you could bring up the link to the article and I'll see if its the same one.

It's up to the claimant to support their claim. You are trying to convince me, not vice versa. I have enough to do to support my own claims.

I think JonBenet was a victim of unintentional domestic homicide; accidental blow to the head; purposeful staging to look like ligature strangulation, which cut off her final, weak breaths.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

It's up to the claimant to support their claim. You are trying to convince me, not vice versa. I have enough to do to support my own claims.

I think JonBenet was a victim of unintentional domestic homicide; accidental blow to the head; purposeful staging to look like ligature strangulation, which cut off her final, weak breaths.

Cutting off her breath isn't staging, is it? I mean, thats murder, right? Willfully applying force using a ligature is real strangulation, not staged strangulation, right?

You are correct to note JBR was alive when strangled, as evidenced. But you're guessing about the final, weak breath part.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Meanwhile, in true RDI fashion, you're ignoring the reality of the second ligature, and how an intruder would need something like that to restrain JBR. In IDI, the second ligature has a reality-based purpose, but in RDI it is superfluous, and so it is written off as a prop that was draped over her wrists.

 

[DeeDee249]

Your original wording was ambiguous. Thanks for clearing up the meaning. I'd still like a source that shows the fibers in JonBenet's bed are the same as those from the "unsourced cord" that I assume you mean was used to make the ligature device. Have I misunderstood again what you are saying, i.e. the fibers in JonBenet's bed were consistent with the fiber from which the ligature cord was made? I have looked and looked for a source on this and can not find one.

You won't find one, because there isn't one. That is because the fibers in her bed were from the HEMP rope found in JAR's adjoining bedroom, NOT from the cord that made the garotte.

 

[BOESP]

Cutting off her breath isn't staging, is it? I mean, thats murder, right? Willfully applying force using a ligature is real strangulation, not staged strangulation, right?

You are correct to note JBR was alive when strangled, as evidenced. But you're guessing about the final, weak breath part.

It is staging if the assailant thought JonBenet was already dead when the ligature was applied. Science proves the head trauma came first since there was bleeding in a 4" x 7" area described in the autopsy, as well as all along the 8.5" fracture there was blood and serum leakage. JonBenet would most likely have been in a coma/unconscious and to the untrained eye probably appeared dead, thus the intent was staging although the true outcome was clinical death (cessation of breathing and brain waves). She could only have barely been alive after the head wound, probably with no perceptible breathing ... maybe some rattling and gurgling, but that was a mortal wound.

My other speculation is perhaps it was a mercy killing, meaning the assailant knew JonBenet was dying because of the head injury and wanted to speed up the process because they couldn't stand to see the writhing and rattling that probably accompanied the death throes.

An Intruder had no need to do the head trauma if they were going to come along and strangle her, and vice versa, no need to strangle her since the head wound was a mortal wound.

 

[BOESP]

Meanwhile, in true RDI fashion, you're ignoring the reality of the second ligature, and how an intruder would need something like that to restrain JBR. In IDI, the second ligature has a reality-based purpose, but in RDI it is superfluous, and so it is written off as a prop that was draped over her wrists.

Are you talking about the cord tied around her hands being the "second ligature?"

I am by no means a knot expert so I don't really like to discuss the knots, particularly the ones on the hands, however, I don't see that they served any purpose except as staging. I can't see any adult needing a cord to restrain a 45 pound six-year-old female who has a grievous head wound.

The purposes I've read in IDI theory don't make sense to me and the theories are so convoluted they seem impossible. The entire scene says "staging" and that is exactly what that short flimsy cord looks like, especially since there are no corresponding marks on JonBenet's wrists or legs showing that the cords were tied tightly enough to restrain her. They would have left marks on her body had they been used as restraints. Neither is there evidence on her body indicating she was suspended by those cords. There would also have been more efficient ways to tie her hands and legs if the idea was to restrain her so she could be gotten to the basement or out of the house.

 

[DeeDee249]

Meanwhile, in true RDI fashion, you're ignoring the reality of the second ligature, and how an intruder would need something like that to restrain JBR. In IDI, the second ligature has a reality-based purpose, but in RDI it is superfluous, and so it is written off as a prop that was draped over her wrists.

It WAS a prop that was draped over her wrists. There was absolutely NO evidence, mark, bruise, welt, furrow -ANYTHING to indicate that the cord had ever been wrapped around her wrists in earnest. If there had been, not only would it be seen in photos, but the coroner would be able to tell if those cords were ever tight enough to actually restrain or pull her. This differs markedly from the neck ligature, which DID leave a furrow and marks sufficient to indicate that it had been pulled tight. Of course, the opening of her neck in autopsy did show that there was insufficient damage to the internal structures of the neck for the ligature to have actually killed her.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

An Intruder had no need to do the head trauma if they were going to come along and strangle her, and vice versa, no need to hit her on the head when strangling would do the job.

You may want to consider the combination of headbash and strangulation as an MO. Thats where the assailant does both, to assure their victim won't be revived. If you want to know more, you can look up the murder of Bob Crane on crimelibrary.com.

 

[BOESP]

You may want to consider the combination of headbash and strangulation as an MO. Thats where the assailant does both, to assure their victim won't be revived. If you want to know more, you can look up the murder of Bob Crane on crimelibrary.com.

I believe Bob Crane would have been a lot harder to kill than JonBenet. There was no need to overkill her. It was a staged scene, which is what Robert Ressler suggested.

 

[JMO8778]

Meanwhile, in true RDI fashion, you're ignoring the reality of the second ligature, and how an intruder would need something like that to restrain JBR. In IDI, the second ligature has a reality-based purpose, but in RDI it is superfluous, and so it is written off as a prop that was draped over her wrists.

you can see in the photos that it is lightly tied around her sleeve...who in their right mind would attempt to restrain someone by tying a thin cord loosely around a shirt sleeve?
Like Thomas said,it wouldn't have restrained a baby.

 

[JMO8778]

The fact the parents were in the house adds nothing to any argument whatsoever. They had a legitimate reason to be there.

they also had a dead child in their basement,that had to be explained somehow...thus the RN.

As do their fibers, all over JBR and her stuff.

Oh PUH -LEEZE.I've heard this one before...and it doesn't walk w. crutches.
Forensics is an exact science.It isn't based on 'everything is everywhere'.If that were the case,then not many ppl would ever be convicted,based on forensic evidence.that said,we're not in outer space,so everything isn't everywhere.and unfortunately for criminals,GRAVITY exists,and fibers settle in specific places,which can be tested for.

Oh, but not the cord. It had no legitimate reason to be there.

but...Patsy's fiber evidence was on it.....and actually IN the entwined cord of the garrotte.
can you explain that Holdon,can you???? b/c I have never seen you do so,other than in weak terms...ie-everything is everywhere.
and perhaps you can also explain why Patsy wanted the jeans back that she was wore to the White's,and the morning of the murder...I can hardly believe it was as she said...that she really liked them.(wow,they must bring back good memories,huh?)

It kinda came and went with the murder.

how do you know it wasn't all used up?there was 15 in. in bet. her wrists.
the other possibility is it was hidden and removed from the house,by either the R's,or by PP..just as the package of size 12 underwear was.(unless you have any ideas on how LE never came across it in the house).

Very much like the child garroting, sexually assaulting, strangling, headbashing, ransom note writing personality, which also came and went with the murder. Maybe you've come to think the parents flick that personality on and off like a switch.

the parents exhibited many selfish traits,which also appeared after the murder,and up to this very day.even considering the fact this was their daughter they are talking about.

Many of the things that are closest to the murder, came and went with the murder. What is that an earmark of?

the parents hiding evidence,covering their arses,and for that matter... many things stayed...for starters,their ridiculous theories and so-called 'explanations' of evidence.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

but...Patsy's fiber evidence was on it.....and actually IN the entwined cord of the garrotte.
can you explain that Holdon,can you???? b/c I have never seen you do so,other than in weak terms...ie-everything is everywhere.
and perhaps you can also explain why Patsy wanted the jeans back that she was wore to the White's,and the morning of the murder...I can hardly believe it was as she said...that she really liked them.(wow,they must bring back good memories,huh?)

Before I need to explain R fibers on an R, you need to explain in somewhat less weak terms how the cord is recently purchased, not yet used for the innocent purpose, AND suddenly all used up after the murder. LOL. Oh, please don't tell me there is third conspirator, another person with no criminal history who took the remnants out of the house.

 

[Rino]

Yeah, you're right. The FF would not travel all that way just to kill JBR. Besides, the RN does have that remains remark, where JR is supposed to not expect the return of JBR's remains. So probably the original intention was to kidnap JBR for long term, and use the RN to throw JR and LE off the track.

So the the kidnapper wrote a ransom note to mask a kidnapping?

 

[Squishified]

Before I need to explain R fibers on an R, you need to explain in somewhat less weak terms how the cord is recently purchased, not yet used for the innocent purpose, AND suddenly all used up after the murder. LOL. Oh, please don't tell me there is third conspirator, another person with no criminal history who took the remnants out of the house.

I think John Ramsey and/or Aunt Pam took the remnants out of the house.

 

[BOESP]

Before I need to explain R fibers on an R, you need to explain in somewhat less weak terms how the cord is recently purchased, not yet used for the innocent purpose, AND suddenly all used up after the murder. LOL. Oh, please don't tell me there is third conspirator, another person with no criminal history who took the remnants out of the house.

Holdon, it has been recently posted two or three times that Patsy or John could have hidden excess cord and duct tape on their persons, in a pocket book, under a coat, among other possibilities. Why can't you admit that possibility?