The actual vs. desired outcome

[BOESP]

Me too. I don't subscribe to your interpretation of 'superstardom' at all. Its not surprising from RDI to run off on a tangent though.

My idea of JBR later in life would've been at the mercy of her captor, and would've had nothing to do with thwarting a Miss America bid. If anything, her captors would've prevented that from ever happening.

Does 'kidnap for slave' have any meaning, or is it a new concept for you?

Motive is usually impossible to prove and it wasn't necessary to show motive in order to prosecute. Dreaming up ideas and speculating on future events is not what investigators do. They go by evidence. In this case, the parents were not cooperative. That made the Ramseys look guilty and it stalled the investigation. Stalling was a great defense plan because here we are almost eleven years later and people are still dreaming up scenarios and motives even though the evidence screams that one or both Ramsey adults were involved.

Using sarcasm and various ad hominem arguments doesn't help your case.

 

[icedtea4me]

Me too. I don't subscribe to your interpretation of 'superstardom' at all. Its not surprising from RDI to run off on a tangent though.

My idea of JBR later in life would've been at the mercy of her captor, and would've had nothing to do with thwarting a Miss America bid. If anything, her captors would've prevented that from ever happening.

Does 'kidnap for slave' have any meaning, or is it a new concept for you?

Okay, so we have these three individuals who have taken JonBenet out of her bed to be their slave. They take her down the spiral staircase to the first floor. Now, what prevented them from taking her out the butler kitchen door, which John Ramsey says was found open? Was there a viscious wolverine guarding the entryway? Was there sulphuric acid pouring down from the sky at that location? Was there a high-voltage barbed wire fence there?


-Tea

 

[azwriter]

JR may have been an expert on knots because of his military and boating exprience, but he was certainly not an expert on garottes. That silly statement about the garotte being "professional" was meant to give the impression that this one had to have been made by someone that is hired to kill people, like as assassin.
JR wanted to put forward the idea that this garotte could not have been done by just anyone. (like him)
As opposed to an "amateur" garotte, which would be just anyone tying a rope around someone's neck, not knowing anything about nooses or how a garotte work.
What is puzzling is that, like so many suspect statements from both Rs, no one ever asked him how HE knew the difference and what he based that opinion on.
IMHO, his saying the garotte was "professional" points the finger back at him, since he was the knot expert.
This didn't look sophisticated to me. It just looked like a cord wrapped around a broken paintbrush and tied around her neck.

Dee Dee, I agree. It was easy for John (and I think Lou Smith, too) to call the garotte "professional." He wasn't challenged on that statement. I wonder how the cops viewed this instrument? Certainly they had more experience in these types of strangling devices. Did they too see this garrote as something used by pro?
Even with his background in boating and military, I would not consider John a knot expert. No more than a kid would learn in the boy scouts. But, I've never been a boater, in the military or a boy scout.
John's opinion that this was a professional garrotte has always stood out to me. It's just another of his statements that makes me say "Huh?"
The garrotte, like the RN is physical evidence, and I'm sure LE looked very closely to how this item was constructed. But darn it! we don't know how they summed up the garrotte.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Okay, so we have these three individuals who have taken JonBenet out of her bed to be their slave. They take her down the spiral staircase to the first floor. Now, what prevented them from taking her out the butler kitchen door, which John Ramsey says was found open? Was there a viscious wolverine guarding the entryway? Was there sulphuric acid pouring down from the sky at that location? Was there a high-voltage barbed wire fence there?


-Tea

Thats a good question. I think kidnap for ransom or sexual assault would have no motivation to take JBR to the basement in the house where the parents are.

Kidnap for long term to a place far away seems more complicated.

 

[BBB167893]

The wrist loop was loose because she was already unconscious when it was applied. It didn't NEED to be tight. She wasn't struggling. Even LA describes the cord as being wrapped around one wrist. The coroner describes the same thing. The cord was around the right wrist only.
The part around her neck HAD to be pulled tight- she was strangled with it! (even though she was likely unconscious when this was done)-while the strangulation may have played a part in her death, it had to look as if the strangulation (and ONLY the strangulation) was what killed her.
Holdon, I am not being sarcastic here, and I realize that this is hard for an IDI to do, but have you READ acandyrose and looked at the photos? Have you read the autopsy report? The description of the cord and where and how it was found on the body have long been known. That site would answer a lot of your questions even if your feelings are unchanged.

I would agree with that and add something. Norm Early, a former Denver DA, offered an explanation, or part of one, anyway. Holdon, you might want to take a look. He said, quote, "If you're staging a strangulation, you don't want the coroner to come back and say 'this strangulation couldn't have killed someone.' So you pull it deeper and deeper."

'On close inspection' happens to be more an opinion.

No, because I see it too.

How does the fake RN buy the R's time when they called 911 at 6AM? Is this another RDI paradox?

Time to send the cops on a wild goose chase while they planned further.

And Holdon, it's not uncommon to buy something for an innocent purpose then not use it immediately. Happens to me all the time. Heck, sometimes I forget completely!

 

[JMO8778]

Thats a good question. I think kidnap for ransom or sexual assault would have no motivation to take JBR to the basement in the house where the parents are.

Kidnap for long term to a place far away seems more complicated.

no,actually it's easier.want to keep her for good?? then get her OUT of that house...ASAP!!!

 

[JMO8778]

Me too. I don't subscribe to your interpretation of 'superstardom' at all. Its not surprising from RDI to run off on a tangent though.

My idea of JBR later in life would've been at the mercy of her captor, and would've had nothing to do with thwarting a Miss America bid. If anything, her captors would've prevented that from ever happening.

Does 'kidnap for slave' have any meaning, or is it a new concept for you?

how does that have anything to do w/ the long-term future?? pedo's KN b/c they like children....but...in the long term...children grow up.

 

[JMO8778]

I think you share PR and Nedra's highly over-rated sense of JBR's "superstardom". She was a beautiful little girl, yes, enhanced by hair extensions, blonde dye job, full makeup and blue contacts. The cute little 3-year old JBR seen in photos was quite a bit different than the 6 year-old JBR with all the above "accessories" in place. Plus the sexpot strut.
Would she have grown up into a beautiful woman? Probably but not unquestionably. Maybe she'd have rebelled against all of it and insisted on a plainer, more natural look.
To think that either a "SFF" OR a competitor's parent would target a little girl like that because they felt "threatened" by the fact that she MIGHT grow uo to be Miss America requires (please forgive me) ."a willing suspension of disbelief"

indeed,sex slave or whatever,it's all quite absurd.

 

[icedtea4me]

no,actually it's easier.want to keep her for good?? then get her OUT of that house...ASAP!!!

Thank you, JMO8778. Seems so simple, doesn't it? But, hey, maybe these three individuals suddenly turned into Moe, Larry, and Curly when it came to pushing the butler kitchen door open and taking her out of the house.


-Tea

 

[DeeDee249]

Me too. I don't subscribe to your interpretation of 'superstardom' at all. Its not surprising from RDI to run off on a tangent though.


Does 'kidnap for slave' have any meaning, or is it a new concept for you?

You don't have to subscribe to ANYTHING I say.
Kidnap for slave makes sense only if she was taken from the house alive. She wasn't. She was killed and left in the home. What could possibly have made the perps change their mind and do that instead of immediately leavung the house with her? Kidnap for slave isn't a new concept- just an implausible one.

 

[JMO8778]

Thank you, JMO8778. Seems so simple, doesn't it? But, hey, maybe these three individuals suddenly turned into Moe, Larry, and Curly when it came to pushing the butler kitchen door open and taking her out of the house.


-Tea

they would certainly have to be idiots,yes!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

You don't have to subscribe to ANYTHING I say.
Kidnap for slave makes sense only if she was taken from the house alive. She wasn't. She was killed and left in the home. What could possibly have made the perps change their mind and do that instead of immediately leavung the house with her? Kidnap for slave isn't a new concept- just an implausible one.

The point of this whole thread isn't what happened, we all know what happened. The point is what if what happened differed from what was supposed to happen. So your statement that kidnap for slave makes sense only if she was taken from the house alive presumes nothing went wrong with the intruders plan.

If PR can originally intend to scold or vent anger at JBR and instead accidentally kill her, then I think an intruder could originally intend to kidnap JBR for slave and instead kill her.

The latter scenario is in fact more plausible than the first because the first really needed an innocent purpose for the cord. None of this make believe 'well they just hadn't used it yet for the innocent purpose' and then 'an accessory to child murder helped out by smuggling out the rest of the cord'. That's just lame.

 

[JMO8778]

The point of this whole thread isn't what happened, we all know what happened. The point is what if what happened differed from what was supposed to happen. So your statement that kidnap for slave makes sense only if she was taken from the house alive presumes nothing went wrong with the intruders plan.

If PR can originally intend to scold or vent anger at JBR and instead accidentally kill her, then I think an intruder could originally intend to kidnap JBR for slave and instead kill her.

The latter scenario is in fact more plausible than the first because the first really needed an innocent purpose for the cord. None of this make believe 'well they just hadn't used it yet for the innocent purpose' and then 'an accessory to child murder helped out by smuggling out the rest of the cord'. That's just lame.

..and the above doesn't walk with crutches..

 

[JMO8778]

The latter scenario is in fact more plausible than the first because the first really needed an innocent purpose for the cord.

well,the paintbrush had an innocent purpose,didn't it?

and if she was hit w. the flashlight,that likely did,too.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

well,the paintbrush had an innocent purpose,didn't it?

Sure it did. But JBR wasn't killed with just a paintbrush. She was killed with cord too. Rage accident theory requires an innocent purpose for both items be located in the house. RDI seems to think there's no need to find an innocent purpose for the cord, but that's false. If it was an accident staged to look like murder, and nobody left for the hardware store, then everything needed to come from the house. The cord is a really important part of this murder, and yet it can't be factually linked to the house either by witness testimony or by forensics.

 

[Rino]

If PR can originally intend to scold or vent anger at JBR and instead accidentally kill her, then I think an intruder could originally intend to kidnap JBR for slave and instead kill her.

The latter scenario is in fact more plausible than the first because the first really needed an innocent purpose for the cord. None of this make believe 'well they just hadn't used it yet for the innocent purpose' and then 'an accessory to child murder helped out by smuggling out the rest of the cord'. That's just lame.

You're dotting t's and crossing i's

Why would an intruder with the sole intent to harm JBR need an elaborte scheme to hide the fact?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

You're dotting t's and crossing i's

Why would an intruder with the sole intent to harm JBR need an elaborte scheme to hide the fact?

Who suggested the intruder's sole intent was to harm JBR? Which elaborate scheme are you referring to?

 

[BBB167893]

The cord is a really important part of this murder, and yet it can't be factually linked to the house either by witness testimony or by forensics.

Actually, LHP said she'd seen that cord lying in the basement a few days earlier and that it had been planned to be used for something, but my memory fails me just now.

The latter scenario is in fact more plausible than the first because the first really needed an innocent purpose for the cord. None of this make believe 'well they just hadn't used it yet for the innocent purpose' and then 'an accessory to child murder helped out by smuggling out the rest of the cord'. That's just lame.

The simplest answer is usually right, Holdon. Occam's Razor.

 

[Rino]

Who suggested the intruder's sole intent was to harm JBR? Which elaborate scheme are you referring to?

You did, unless you don't consider the following intent to harm

Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
If PR can originally intend to scold or vent anger at JBR and instead accidentally kill her, then I think an intruder could originally intend to kidnap JBR for slave and instead kill her.

The latter scenario is in fact more plausible

The elaborate cover up of a killer and or sex slave kidnapper. Remember, a kidnapping did not occur . Please don't come again with the against her will being taken to the basement, that still would not result in a ransom note. A found body does not warrant ransom money to be paid.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Remember, a kidnapping did not occur .

The most likely original plan was a kidnapping. That is, the original desired result for the perp was to kidnap JBR.

This is based on...

...the ransom note where one of the perps implicitly stated that JBR was kidnapped and being watched by two gentlemen.

...the multi-looped (3 loops) ligature designed more for restraining a child and less for murder.

...the cord fiber evidence found in JBR's bed, suggesting that the last place JBR was seen alive was the first place she met the restraining device. Its unlikely she would be murdered or sexually assaulted in her bed, so the cord device was likely intended for restraining JBR. This is kidnapping, BTW.

The idea that a kidnapping did not occur is your opinion, stated as fact. Not only is it just an idea, but an idea that contradicts the evidence.