The actual vs. desired outcome

[coloradokares]

Hi coloradokares,
I have nothing to add to your post, but wanted to say it's good to "see" you. Hope you are doing well.

Thanks its one step forward two back. That being the case we might as well DANCE!!

 

[coloradokares]

:blowkiss:

Me too Colorado!!!

:blowkiss:

 

[coloradokares]

Good point, CK. Also, I'm happy to see you posting. We've missed your input.

I would have thought the courts would have seen that John's assets, investments, etc. covered Patsy and the kids forever. I guess, too, Patsy could have thought about Burke and what he might do if Patsy died and his daddy was in prison. I'm not sure how I feel about John. I'm sure he could care less.

There are so many things to think about in this case. :waitasec:

Patsy was a notorious spender I sure see your point too. I think it would have taken the family to poverty to defend a murder charge. In DOI they talk like they were nearly broke !! I think Patsy was NEVER going to find herself without the wherewithall to spend herself into oblivion. Yet one more cavet of the bipolar. As I read all about this case the more I am convinced that BPD was a huge issue. JMO but its the 800 lb gorilla in the room that keeps getting ignored IMO

 

[UKGuy]

I understand and it was probably not reckless lust, but we do not know for sure whether their marriage was celebate. And it is important; it is something we cannot assume. I would venture to say that it was probably nondescript, but then again, we can't say for sure.

Solace,

I'm not suggesting they were celibate, but John's requests, possibly to avoid celibacy, disgusted Patsy.

 

[BOESP]

... My problem with that as most readers here know is I don't believe the head wound is consistent with being struck because it appears to be a low-velocity/high-pressure wound.

BOESP, I agree with you on this. BUT I NEED TO KNOW MORE ABOUT WHY YOU SAY THIS. Because up to now, all I could say to back my opinion is that I thought it was an accident and she was thrown and everyone counters with this is an injury consistent with being hit by a heavy object and nothing else works for this type of injury.

Please tell me why it is possible. Thanks.

Based on the public autopsy report and physics, it is unlikely a striking blow could leave a hole that size in the back of the head and an 8-inch+ split and there be so relatively little damage to the underlying tissue at the impact point. The length that one fracture would/could travel (in this case 8.25 to 8.5 inches, depending on what you read), especially crossing suture lines in a pliable skull, with little damage to the underlying tissue, is limited and likely no where near 8.5 inches.

A swung weapon, relatively, could be low or high velocity depending on several factors. Regardless, her brain matter would be mutilated by the weapon at the contact point more deeply in the brain tissue if enough force was used to create that 8-inch fracture. Bullet wounds, depending on caliber and other factors, are generally high velocity/low pressure (very simply put -- lots of speed but little relative force to the surrounding area). A two-pound hand weight (which might fit that wound) if swung hard enough to make that long fracture would mutilate the brain matter underneath the contact point.

If someone grabbed a child by the collar while pressing their thumb into the child's neck it might do several things. Depending on where the pressure was, even that thumb could subdue the child. If the child was pushed into a doorknob hard enough, that could produce a displaced skull section that didn't break the skin but it would be nearly impossible to create an 8-inch fracture that way. If, however, someone fell on a child after the head struck the doorknob, that would create relatively high pressure to an already existing wound and could force the original, shorter fracture to lengthen. Same thing with pushing a child's head into an immovable object like a heavy bath tub. The pushing motion is low velocity but the possible moments of pressing the heading against the blunt object would create relatively high pressure, especially if force was used. Force is relative -- an adult pressing a small child is relatively more forceful than two adults doing the same action.

She very well could have been thrown, as you said. There are just so many variables about how that head wound could have happened but I can't see high velocity being one of them because of the lack of underlying damage at the point of impact coupled with the length of the fracture. A striking blow would probably lead to a fracture but not one that traveled from the back of the head to just above the brow line in front and certainly not one that left relatively little underlying mutilation to the brain.

Even just using lay common sense to think it through, the "for-example argument" of a three-hundred pound man swinging a bat, on the face of it, is not consistent with JonBenet's wound. Her brain would be mush underneath the contact point. Not to mention, she would have to be in a position to receive a wound that would allow an arm to swing the weapon and hit her on the back, right-hand side. That's a wide arc for those who believe she was struck while in that cluttered basement. Just think about how long your arm is then add in the length of whatever weapon you think was used -- it is highly unlikely that could happen in that basement.

Did that answer work or have I misunderstood? Remember, I'm not a physician, firearm expert, or a physicist. I just have contact with some people who are.

 

[BOESP]

Thanks its one step forward two back. That being the case we might as well DANCE!!

 

[Solace]

Based on the public autopsy report and physics, it is unlikely a striking blow could leave a hole that size in the back of the head and an 8-inch+ split and there be so relatively little damage to the underlying tissue at the impact point. The length that one fracture would/could travel (in this case 8.25 to 8.5 inches, depending on what you read), especially crossing suture lines in a pliable skull, with little damage to the underlying tissue, is limited and likely no where near 8.5 inches.

A swung weapon, relatively, could be low or high velocity depending on several factors. Regardless, her brain matter would be mutilated and the contact point deeper in the brain tissue if enough force was used to create that 8-inch fracture. Bullet wounds are high velocity/low pressure (very simply put -- lots of speed but little relative force to the surrounding area). A two-pound hand weight (which might fit that wound) if swung hard enough to make that long fracture would mutilate the brain matter underneath.

If someone grabbed a child by the collar while pressing their thumb into the child's neck it might do several things. Depending on where the pressure was, even that thumb could subdue the child. If the child was pushed into a doorknob hard enough, that could produce a displaced skull section that didn't break the skin but it would be nearly impossible to create an 8-inch fracture that way. If, however, someone fell on a child after the head struck the doorknob, that would create relatively high pressure to an already existing wound and could force the original, shorter fracture to lengthen. Same thing with pushing a child's head into an immovable object like a heavy bath tub. The pushing motion is low velocity but the possible moments of pressing the heading against the blunt object would create relatively high pressure, especially if force was used. Force is relative -- an adult pressing a small child is relatively more forceful than two adults doing the same action.

She very well could have been thrown, as you said. There are just so many variables about how that head wound could have happened but I can't see high velocity being one of them because of the lack of underlying damage at the point of impact coupled with the length of the fracture. A striking blow would probably lead to a fracture but not one that traveled from the back of the head to just above the brow line in front and certainly not one that left relatively little underlying mutilation to the brain.

Even just using lay common sense to think it through, the "for-example argument" of a three-hundred pound man swinging a bat, on the face of it, is not consistent with JonBenet's wound. Her brain would be mush underneath the contact point. Not to mention, she would have to be in a position to receive a wound that would allow an arm to swing the weapon and hit her on the back, right-hand side. That's a wide arc for those who believe she was struck while in that cluttered basement. Just think about how long your arm is then add in the length of whatever weapon you think was used -- it is highly unlikely that could happen in that basement.

Did that answer work or have I misunderstood? Remember, I'm not a physician, firearm expert, or a physicist. I just have contact with some people who are.

Whre have you been all my life. That was great. This puzzle is starting to fit. I wish that Thomas had explained what you did so well. Anyway, what if she is dragged and thrown into the bathroom and hits the back of her head against the bathtub and then falls to the floor (could the fall to the floor have caused the crack that ensued from the rectangle wound??????

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, I agree 100% that JonBenet exhibited many characteristics of a molested child. That bothers me. As I mentioned a few months ago, my close friend who spent 25 years with CPS thinks Patsy caught John with JonBenet and in trying to strike John missed him and hit JonBenet. My problem with that as most readers here know is I don't believe the head wound is consistent with being struck because it appears to be a low-velocity/high-pressure wound. I think the injury was either a combination of two events that damaged her skull simultaneously or two events occurring near the same time such as JonBenet falling and striking her head and, say, for example, an adult falling on top of her and a lot of weight being placed on the already damaged skull. I suppose a scuffle could have ensued and maybe JonBenet came between two angry parents but that, again, is just my speculation.

Regardless, the entire scene and known events aren't consistent with what is known about Intruder invasion and homicide. Nope. No way.

On the other hand, in my opinion, what has been written about John Ramsey coupled with the hearsay statements made by people in conversation with Patsy, he fits the pattern of a philanderer, not a child molestor. The age gap between him and Patsy isn't unheard of but it isn't the norm. And now he is dating someone with an even larger age gap. I don't see much point in getting into a big discussion on that but old man/young woman suggests several things. :waitasec:

BOESP,
Although many scenarios are possible, I doubt that Patsy aimed at John missed and hit JonBenet. The reason being she has a very good defence there, there is no need for the convoluted staging that took place.

The prior molestation, The acute sexual assault, the fact that it was cleaned up and hidden from view, coupled with the staging and the subsequent intent to flee the state, all suggest to me that this is a molestation case and not a toilet rage one.

Your observation regarding the age difference is relevant, of course it proves nothing but offers an insight into John's mind.

When it comes to thinking if people could commit certain acts, just think on Michael Jackson, who would ever think he would end up in court, accused of assaulting a young boy, never mind sharing his bed with preteens, all which he was subsequently acquitted of?

 

[Solace]

BOESP,
Although many scenarios are possible, I doubt that Patsy aimed at John missed and hit JonBenet. The reason being she has a very good defence there, there is no need for the convoluted staging that took place.

The prior molestation, The acute sexual assault, the fact that it was cleaned up and hidden from view, coupled with the staging and the subsequent intent to flee the state, all suggest to me that this is a molestation case and not a toilet rage one.

Your observation regarding the age difference is relevant, of course it proves nothing but offers an insight into John's mind.

When it comes to thinking if people could commit certain acts, just think on Michael Jackson, who would ever think he would end up in court, accused of assaulting a young boy, never mind sharing his bed with preteens, all which he was subsequently acquitted of?

Actually, UK, I would think Michael Jackson would be a prime candidate for that kind of behaviour. I am serious.

Now if you want to talk about a shock - anyone know Jeff Chandler. He was a well known actor in the 60's - totally masculine. I mean 6 3 or something and macho man. Well according to (I forget who it was according to, but she was a movie star swimmer) anyway, they are at his house and she is making dinner and he says "honey, come on upstairs I want to show you something" and she does and Jeff is standing their in a pink dress with pink spike heels on and he had a complete closet of women's clothes.

Now that is a shock. But Michael Jackson, he was headed for this kind of thing when his lunatic father started slapping him and his brothers around when they were two or something. :slap:

 

[Solace]

Here is a site for it.

http://jameson245_archive.tripod.com/jbrbedroom-A.htm

If you look at the bathroom sink it is rectangular at the corners. If this is the actual sink in the bath.

This is huge BOESP. Huge. I have been waiting forever for someone to explain how Thomas's theory works and you do. You should be cannonized. I am going to get an e-mail out to the Pope this minute.

 

[BOESP]

Whre have you been all my life. That was great. This puzzle is starting to fit. I wish that Thomas had explained what you did so well. Anyway, what if she is dragged and thrown into the bathroom and hits the back of her head against the bathtub and then falls to the floor (could the fall to the floor have caused the crack that ensued from the rectangle wound??????

Glad to help but my specialty is deviant behavior so you may not want to claim me. :innocent:

I can see her head hitting the bathtub but I think she would have at the very least been addled after that and probably unconscious. I can think of so many things that could have happened to cause that head wound.

I think that displaced piece of skull was caused by her head striking something similar to the shape of the displacement. Maybe there was a fancy doorstop in the bathroom??? Maybe she was being bathed and the bathtub was slippery??? Other circumstance???

If she slipped as you said above hitting the back of her head then falling on the floor, I can't see that causing high enough pressure. If, for example, she was manhandled into the bathroom, pushed against the doorknob (and that displacement, in my opinion is shaped like some doorknobs and at 47" tall, JonBenet's occipital region would line up with a doorknob), then slung or pushed in anger toward the bathtub, commode, or other hard immovable surface she could have had a relatively "high pressure" contact at that point.

Remember, Steve Thomas had access to all the evidence. I'm just putting two and two together based on books and on-line transcripts and depos, none of which are of forensic quality.

 

[Squishified]

JB's head wound--To me, this is the biggest piece of the puzzle missing.
If it could have been determined what exactly caused the head wound, I believe this case would have been wrapped up years ago.

 

[Solace]

Glad to help but my specialty is deviant behavior so you may not want to claim me. :innocent:

I can see her head hitting the bathtub but I think she would have at the very least been addled after that and probably unconscious. I can think of so many things that could have happened to cause that head wound.

I think that displaced piece of skull was caused by her head striking something similar to the shape of the displacement. Maybe there was a fancy doorstop in the bathroom??? Maybe she was being bathed and the bathtub was slippery??? Other circumstance???

If she slipped as you said above hitting the back of her head then falling on the floor, I can't see that causing high enough pressure. If, for example, she was manhandled into the bathroom, pushed against the doorknob (and that displacement, in my opinion is shaped like some doorknobs and at 47" tall, JonBenet's occipital region would line up with a doorknob), then slung or pushed in anger toward the bathtub, commode, or other hard immovable surface she could have had a relatively "high pressure" contact at that point.

Remember, Steve Thomas had access to all the evidence. I'm just putting two and two together based on books and on-line transcripts and depos, none of which are of forensic quality.

Well, if nothing else, I now know it is possible to have this kind of wound by being pushed violently and hitting an object. Here we go again, back to Thomas' theory. He knows much about this case.

 

[Solace]

JB's head wound--To me, this is the biggest piece of the puzzle missing.
If it could have been determined what exactly caused the head wound, I believe this case would have been wrapped up years ago.

Well Thomas believes it happened in the bathroom. I wish we had more on the red shirt.

Was anything ever said about traces of urine being found on her shirt that she was found in? Anyone?

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,
Although many scenarios are possible, I doubt that Patsy aimed at John missed and hit JonBenet. The reason being she has a very good defence there, there is no need for the convoluted staging that took place.

The prior molestation, The acute sexual assault, the fact that it was cleaned up and hidden from view, coupled with the staging and the subsequent intent to flee the state, all suggest to me that this is a molestation case and not a toilet rage one.

Your observation regarding the age difference is relevant, of course it proves nothing but offers an insight into John's mind.

When it comes to thinking if people could commit certain acts, just think on Michael Jackson, who would ever think he would end up in court, accused of assaulting a young boy, never mind sharing his bed with preteens, all which he was subsequently acquitted of?

You may be right, UKGuy, but I can see the Ramseys wanting to hide an action that caused JonBenet to be killed in a moment of rage by one parent striking out at the other. If true, I doubt Patsy would have wanted the whole world to know John was molesting JonBenet either. I don't think she wanted the money machine in prison either, especially if she was the one who delivered the blow. I can see where you are coming from but I don't see the same reasons. I just can't get a grip on John molesting JonBenet.

As to the fleeing the country thing maybe that was the intent but according to DOI John needed a job and they needed to travel to Spain to make contact with the Jaleo people who develop high-level software. Jaleo eventually, or so I read, set up a Jaleo office in Atlanta and John was named CEO of that office. I've always believed that was the reason it looked like they were preparing to leave the country. Supposedly, the entire family traveled to Spain to iron out details for John's new job. Of course, we're told Jaleo folded it's doors in Atlanta and John was without a job once again. Anyway, I have strong doubts they had a plan to leave the USA under subterfuge.

 

[BOESP]

Actually, UK, I would think Michael Jackson would be a prime candidate for that kind of behaviour. I am serious.

Now if you want to talk about a shock - anyone know Jeff Chandler. He was a well known actor in the 60's - totally masculine. I mean 6 3 or something and macho man. Well according to (I forget who it was according to, but she was a movie star swimmer) anyway, they are at his house and she is making dinner and he says "honey, come on upstairs I want to show you something" and she does and Jeff is standing their in a pink dress with pink spike heels on and he had a complete closet of women's clothes.

Now that is a shock. But Michael Jackson, he was headed for this kind of thing when his lunatic father started slapping him and his brothers around when they were two or something. :slap:

I think it was Esther Williams who "dated" Jeff Chandler.

I also agree with you about MJ. The only thing about Michael Jackson that surprised me was that it took so long for anybody to notice!

 

[Squishified]

Well Thomas believes it happened in the bathroom. I wish we had more on the red shirt.

Was anything ever said about traces of urine being found on her shirt that she was found in? Anyone?

I guess what I was getting at was, if it could be positively identified that it happened in the bathroom--well that would 99% indicate that there was no intruder. Therefore it had to be a family member. But since there's other possible head wound weapons (like the flashlight, the bat, etc.) in and around the house, there is the possibility of an intruder.
I wish they could have determined the exact object that caused the head wound.

 

[BOESP]

Here is a site for it.

http://jameson245_archive.tripod.com/jbrbedroom-A.htm

If you look at the bathroom sink it is rectangular at the corners. If this is the actual sink in the bath.

This is huge BOESP. Huge. I have been waiting forever for someone to explain how Thomas's theory works and you do. You should be cannonized. I am going to get an e-mail out to the Pope this minute.

If that's the same sink that was there when JonBenet lived in that house, I would speculate that corner could have caused that injury. The shape works! Also, isn't standard counter top height about 36"? That would work with the location on the back of JonBenet's head if she were in a standing position when pushed. Thanks for that link!

(Pardon me while I go straighten my halo :angel

 

[Squishified]

I lean towards it happening in the tub.

 

[BOESP]

JB's head wound--To me, this is the biggest piece of the puzzle missing.
If it could have been determined what exactly caused the head wound, I believe this case would have been wrapped up years ago.

I agree Squishy. I bet Steve Thomas has a pretty good idea of what caused it.