The actual vs. desired outcome

[JMO8778]

Solace,
Sure, we do not know for certain, but Patsy is quoted as making remarks about John requests, the effects of the chemo' wouldnot have helped either.

..she had a hyst and no hormone replacement as far as I've read....I'd venture to say she probably felt pretty apathetic in that dept.Anyone who's ever taken a very low dose b/c pill can probably tell you that (or maybe even a higher dose one,depending on the pill)...and that's even with a few hormones still in your system !

 

[BOESP]

I lean towards it happening in the tub.

I do too. Steve Thomas had access to enough facts to form a viable theory. No way did he reveal anything that would have compromised that case. I just love watching that video of John and Patsy in that interview with Thomas on Larry King Live. Powerful stuff if you want to see it with an unbiased eye and if you believe in behavioral science.

What surprised me was John Douglas's evaluation of the killer -- most of it makes it sound like Patsy did it but Douglas says, no, an Intruder was likely.

 

[JMO8778]

You may be right, UKGuy, but I can see the Ramseys wanting to hide an action that caused JonBenet to be killed in a moment of rage by one parent striking out at the other. If true, I doubt Patsy would have wanted the whole world to know John was molesting JonBenet either. I don't think she wanted the money machine in prison either, especially if she was the one who delivered the blow. I can see where you are coming from but I don't see the same reasons. I just can't get a grip on John molesting JonBenet.

As to the fleeing the country thing maybe that was the intent but according to DOI John needed a job and they needed to travel to Spain to make contact with the Jaleo people who develop high-level software. Jaleo eventually, or so I read, set up a Jaleo office in Atlanta and John was named CEO of that office. I've always believed that was the reason it looked like they were preparing to leave the country. Supposedly, the entire family traveled to Spain to iron out details for John's new job. Of course, we're told Jaleo folded it's doors in Atlanta and John was without a job once again. Anyway, I have strong doubts they had a plan to leave the USA under subterfuge.

sure but I mean right after her body was found,as well as having PP retrieve the passports AND the mementos and such...passports + mementos/family heirlooms to me =someone is considering leaving the country.
And in DOI when they said they didn't have a plan to get back to Atlanta,I think it's possible they thought they would be indicted and wouldn't get to go back..but John mentions posting bail and from there,I think they would have left the country before going to prison..thus the real reason for not having a plan to get back.Otherwise I think they would have considered both options...getting there *and getting back.

 

[Squishified]

I do too. Steve Thomas had access to enough facts to form a viable theory. No way did he reveal anything that would have compromised that case. I just love watching that video of John and Patsy in that interview with Thomas on Larry King Live. Powerful stuff if you want to see it with an unbiased eye and if you believe in behavioral science. What surprised me is John Douglas's evaluation -- most of it makes it sound like Patsy did it but Douglas says, no, an Intruder was likely.

I have that John Douglas book "The Cases That Haunt Us".
At the time I got it I was leaning towards IDI -- thanks to the Lou Smit documentary I had seen a couple years earlier. So when I read the book I thought John Douglas had got it right.
Flash forward to when Patsy died. I saw it on the news and then went online to find more information. And that's how I discovered Websleuths!
And y'all turned me back to RDI.
When I read Douglas' book now, his scenario makes no sense. He makes way too many excuses for the Ramsey's.

 

[JMO8778]

If that's the same sink that was there when JonBenet lived in that house, I would speculate that corner could have caused that injury. The shape works! Also, isn't standard counter top height about 36"? That would work with the location on the back of JonBenet's head if she were in a standing position when pushed. Thanks for that link!

(Pardon me while I go straighten my halo :angel

is it really curved though? b/c when I enlarged it,it looked like the glare was just causing it to appear that way.

 

[Solace]

If that's the same sink that was there when JonBenet lived in that house, I would speculate that corner could have caused that injury. The shape works! Also, isn't standard counter top height about 36"? That would work with the location on the back of JonBenet's head if she were in a standing position when pushed. Thanks for that link!

(Pardon me while I go straighten my halo :angel

I am sitting here laughing out loud at my desk.

 

[Solace]

is it really curved though? b/c when I enlarged it,it looked like the glare was just causing it to appear that way.

It is curved. YOU can see it is curved in the other pictures. I am just wondering if that bathrrom is the same. Has it been redone. Anyone know?

 

[Solace]

I do too. Steve Thomas had access to enough facts to form a viable theory. No way did he reveal anything that would have compromised that case. I just love watching that video of John and Patsy in that interview with Thomas on Larry King Live. Powerful stuff if you want to see it with an unbiased eye and if you believe in behavioral science.

What surprised me was John Douglas's evaluation of the killer -- most of it makes it sound like Patsy did it but Douglas says, no, an Intruder was likely.

He also took bows on TV when Karr was arrested and said his long lost friends were calling to congratulate him. I don't remember seeing him after they let Karr go though.

 

[Squishified]

It is curved. YOU can see it is curved in the other pictures. I am just wondering if that bathrrom is the same. Has it been redone. Anyone know?

That's what bugs me too. I don't know what JB's bathroom looked like when they lived there.

 

[Solace]

I lean towards it happening in the tub.

Why the tub? She still had the heart on her hand remember. I don't think it happened in the tub. I think she was dragged somewhere because of the mark on her neck. Someone was infuriated. Likely Patsy, it is almost 18 hours that she had been up. I realize she was in her 40s and therefore and such; but really 18 hours, that would exhaust anyone except the young and the restless 20+ year olds.

How lucky was Patsy that this injury left no blood. What are the chances of that happening. Our very own Callan swore up and down there was blood until we basically drew her a map. By the way, where is Callan, anyway. :slap:

 

[JMO8778]

Patsy was a notorious spender I sure see your point too. I think it would have taken the family to poverty to defend a murder charge. In DOI they talk like they were nearly broke !! I think Patsy was NEVER going to find herself without the wherewithall to spend herself into oblivion. Yet one more cavet of the bipolar. As I read all about this case the more I am convinced that BPD was a huge issue. JMO but its the 800 lb gorilla in the room that keeps getting ignored IMO

I absolutely agree,and it can swing in the opposite direction as well,(even within the same person),my bdp relative thinks at times that he doesn't need any money to live on,(as if the rest of the world will take care of him);as if he thinks he's that great or something.I think it's called grandious behavior.

 

[JMO8778]

I think that Patsy would not Kill the cash cow. She knew that eventually alot of things would end if the cash cow was dead or in prison. Eventually even her health care. Does not take a long time to go through the money when you have a spender like Patsy and her entire family. What was it Nedra said. As long as John kept making it they would enjoy spending it?

and then there's Patsy's remark in DOI that her gmother told her 'you know we don't divorce in this family'.perhaps she was trying to tell the reader something(?)

 

[Squishified]

Why the tub? She still had the heart on her hand remember. I don't think it happened in the tub. I think she was dragged somewhere because of the mark on her neck. Someone was infuriated. Likely Patsy, it is almost 18 hours that she had been up. I realize she was in her 40s and therefore and such; but really 18 hours, that would exhaust anyone except the young and the restless 20+ year olds.

How lucky was Patsy that this injury left no blood. What are the chances of that happening. Our very own Callan swore up and down there was blood until we basically drew her a map. By the way, where is Callan, anyway. :slap:

You're right. Well, there goes my theory!
It could have happened near the tub but not in it. I believe she probably WAS dragged into the bathroom. So she could have been banged into the outside of the tub or the sink (?) I'm thinking out loud again. I need another look at those pictures.

 

[Solace]

You're right. Well, there goes my theory!
It could have happened near the tub but not in it. I believe she probably WAS dragged into the bathroom. So she could have been banged into the outside of the tub or the sink (?) I'm thinking out loud again. I need another look at those pictures.

What if she is being dragged and strangled at the same time and she is being pulled with the back of her head facing the bathroom and Patsy throws her and there she hits her head against the sink - doesn't the crack radiate FROM the rectangle. So if she is hit and gets that wound and falls, BOESP, you don't think that she could have helped the crack radiate when she fell, if the rectangle wound is already in place??

 

[JMO8778]

BOESP,

this was in one of the links a few pages back,in a link off of it actually.http://crimemagazine.com/solvingjbr-main.htm I believe your thinking of it being a high pressure wound is more likely,so I'm wondering if this is misinformation on that page? Thomas does include the tests Dr Spitz did w. the flashlight,however,of course,it's not his own theory of what happened.I don't recall reading anywhere that pathologists told police this :

That sequence is consistent with what forensic pathologists told Boulder police had likely happened, according to Det. Steve Thomas in his book on the case (JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation) and author Lawrence Schiller (Perfect Murder, Perfect Town). Schiller, citing unnamed "specialists," and Thomas, citing Michigan pathologist Dr. Werner Spitz, say pathologists told police that someone struck JonBenet in the head with a bat or a metal object such as a flashlight (each was found in the home, clean of fingerprints). Her skull was fractured. Massive brain damage was instantaneous. She could never have regained consciousness.

 

[Squishified]

So if Patsy is dragging JB into the bathroom, the first major fixture is the sink. And it appears to be about head level for a six year old.

 

[Solace]

So if Patsy is dragging JB into the bathroom, the first major fixture is the sink. And it appears to be about head level for a six year old.

.

She hits it and then she falls. It is hard to tell from the pictures how the room is set up going into it. I wish we had pictures of the bedroom leading into the bathroom. I am going to try to find a layout. Candy Rose. Be back.

 

[BOESP]

sure but I mean right after her body was found,as well as having PP retrieve the passports AND the mementos and such...passports + mementos/family heirlooms to me =someone is considering leaving the country.
And in DOI when they said they didn't have a plan to get back to Atlanta,I think it's possible they thought they would be indicted and wouldn't get to go back..but John mentions posting bail and from there,I think they would have left the country before going to prison..thus the real reason for not having a plan to get back.Otherwise I think they would have considered both options...getting there *and getting back.

Okay, I understand. I thought you meant later.

Since John was still employed by Access Graphics, he may have thought he would need his passport for business purposes. It is just hard to say what someone's motives are and things aren't always like they seem. Not that I don't think they know what happened to JonBenet and I do believe Patsy accidentally caused the head wound, I'm just trying my darnedest to be unbiased. I'm undecided about who prepared and placed the ligature. :twocents:

 

[BOESP]

I have that John Douglas book "The Cases That Haunt Us".
At the time I got it I was leaning towards IDI -- thanks to the Lou Smit documentary I had seen a couple years earlier. So when I read the book I thought John Douglas had got it right.
Flash forward to when Patsy died. I saw it on the news and then went online to find more information. And that's how I discovered Websleuths!
And y'all turned me back to RDI.
When I read Douglas' book now, his scenario makes no sense. He makes way too many excuses for the Ramsey's.

I sat on the fence for a long, long time, then flip-flopped for a long, long time. I keep hoping someone will come up with some evidence that exonerates the Ramseys. I'm not holding my breath ............

 

[BOESP]

is it really curved though? b/c when I enlarged it,it looked like the glare was just causing it to appear that way.

I'm not sure JMO. I thought the shelf along the back of the tub was interesting too but I couldn't tell much about it in the photos. I couldn't tell what kind of doorknob was on the door either. As Solace said, who knows whether the bathroom in the photos is like it was when the Ramseys lived there?????