The actual vs. desired outcome

[Solace]

Okay, I understand. I thought you meant later.

Since John was still employed by Access Graphics, he may have thought he would need his passport for business purposes. It is just hard to say what someone's motives are and things aren't always like they seem. Not that I don't think they know what happened to JonBenet and I do believe Patsy accidentally caused the head wound, I'm just trying my darnedest to be unbiased. I'm undecided about who prepared and placed the ligature. :twocents:

I think John did that. Fibers from his sweater were found in her underwear? Weren't they?

Patsy accidently kills her and tells John. He sees she is dead. There is no blood, there is no pulse and he feels that her head is split as did Patsy and she is going nuts. This is where Burke hears creaking and noises "during the night". Just insanity. I think John decides at that point to help her.

The reason I think John knew about this is I don't believe he ever would have risked calling his friends over - and for that matter, I think he would have called his lawyers rather than 911 to get help.

He knew. I think he did the staging. But Patsy's jacket fibers are found under the tape and in the garrotte. This scene is so bizarre that it is unbelievably hard to imagine that they would do this kind of staging. But what are they going to do if they do not call the hospital immediately - they are in it up to their ears. They have to make it look bizarre. They have to.

I don't know at what time John found out about it. I don't know if Patsy brought her to the basement, if she started the staging and could not finish and if John took over.

But I think he knew.

Look at how good he is at manipulating people. He is smart, he is not going to risk his daughter being killed by calling their friends if he actually believes they are being watched.

 

[BOESP]

I am sitting here laughing out loud at my desk.

Uh - oh ...

 

[BOESP]

Why the tub? She still had the heart on her hand remember. I don't think it happened in the tub. I think she was dragged somewhere because of the mark on her neck. Someone was infuriated. ...

Hmmmm ... where do you think JonBenet was dragged from, Solace?

 

[Solace]

Hmmmm ... where do you think JonBenet was dragged from, Solace?

I think she was watching TV on the end of her bed and fell asleep and wet the bed. Patsy tries to wake her and JB aregues or gives Patsy an "elbow" and Patsy loses it and grabs her around the collar and says "lets go". She did have scrapes on her legs didn't she?

That can't be right, their would have been urine left on the bed spread. Don't we see the bedspread at the end of the bed with a pillow over it and some clothes. Possibly she fell asleep and wet the portion with the sheets - I am serious.

She is in no mood and does not realize her own strength but she is infuriated and exhausted. It is over in seconds.

 

[BOESP]

What if she is being dragged and strangled at the same time and she is being pulled with the back of her head facing the bathroom and Patsy throws her and there she hits her head against the sink - doesn't the crack radiate FROM the rectangle. So if she is hit and gets that wound and falls, BOESP, you don't think that she could have helped the crack radiate when she fell, if the rectangle wound is already in place??

Yes, under the circumstances, falling could have lengthened the crack, especially if she fell on ceramic flooring. There are so many possibilities and combinations.

The thumb print is on the left front and the displaced skull segment is on the right side of the occipital bone, if I remember correctly and there is a wider discoloration around the lower part of the neck. That mark appears to be several inches lower than the ligature marking which is high up under the neck and more narrow. I would agree with your speculation that the wounds and markings fit with your above statement. Yep. Sounds good to me.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

and then there's Patsy's remark in DOI that her gmother told her 'you know we don't divorce in this family'.perhaps she was trying to tell the reader something(?)

I always wondered about that remark, and thought it was a weird one because John had already been divorced by the time Patsy hooked up with him. The Paughs don't divorce, but they have no problem marrying those who do...but maybe you've hit it on the head, and that comment held a different meaning altogether.

When discussing the possibility of the bathroom being the scene of the original altercation, don't forget that police noticed an odor similar to ammonia in the vicinity of JonBenet's bathroom. What was that about? People have speculated that it was from a late-night dye job, and that explains JB's ponytails, but her hair wasn't wet and her roots were the same color as her hair.

Did it have something to do with what happened to JB, or was the smell the result of something that happened later, like cleaning? Why would the bathroom still smell like ammonia by the time police arrived if it was from something that was happening while JB was still alive and conscious? Why would anyone need to clean in that room, if a cleaning agent was the source of the smell?

Just seeing how JonBenet's hair had been styled in the party pictures from the Whites would answer some questions. I wish Thomas had talked more about how JB's hair was styled, and since he didn't, I'm left wondering if he didn't because her hair was the same at the party as it was when she was found.

 

[Solace]

Yes, under the circumstances, falling could have lengthened the crack, especially if she fell on ceramic flooring. There are so many possibilities and combinations.

The thumb print is on the left front and the displaced skull segment is on the right side of the occipital bone, if I remember correctly and there is a wider discoloration around the lower part of the neck. That mark appears to be several inches lower than the ligature marking which is high up under the neck and more narrow. I would agree with your speculation that the wounds and markings fit with your above statement. Yep. Sounds good to me.

I have to run, but as I recall she did have scrapes on her legs. ANYONE KNOW ABOUT THAT. see you on the morrow.:dance:

 

[daffodil]

I think the bedpost on the foot of the spare bed is the culprit,it is the right shape as far as one can tell and if Patsy dragged her off the bed and swung her round she could have hit it.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I have to run, but as I recall she did have scrapes on her legs. ANYONE KNOW ABOUT THAT. see you on the morrow.:dance:

zOMG! Those marks were from being stungunned repeatedly, y'all! There's some really creepy scary vicious alcoholic drug-addicted kiddie--watching pedophile angry enough at JR to kill his little girl after feeding her drugged pineapple and zapping her with a stungun and strangling her off and on for fifty hours straight in some orgy involving almost every male the Ramseys knew (and some they had barely even met)!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111oneoneone


Seriously, here is what the autopsy says about her legs:

On the posterior aspect of the left lower leg, almost in the midline, approximately 4 inches above the level of the heel are two small scratch-like abrasions which are dried and rust colored. They measure one-sixteenth by less than one-sixteenth of an inch and one-eight by less than one-sixteenth of an inch respectively.



And interesting...I'm not that great at interpreting medical information, but I notice it says here in the autopsy that "There is slight drying artifact of the tip of the tongue."

Does that mean the tip of her tongue is dried out? Would that happen with her mouth sealed shut by a piece of tape, or is it more indicative of her mouth being left open for a bit after she died, then tape applied?

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,

this was in one of the links a few pages back,in a link off of it actually.http://crimemagazine.com/solvingjbr-main.htm I believe your thinking of it being a high pressure wound is more likely,so I'm wondering if this is misinformation on that page? Thomas does include the tests Dr Spitz did w. the flashlight,however,of course,it's not his own theory of what happened.I don't recall reading anywhere that pathologists told police this :

That sequence is consistent with what forensic pathologists told Boulder police had likely happened, according to Det. Steve Thomas in his book on the case (JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation) and author Lawrence Schiller (Perfect Murder, Perfect Town). Schiller, citing unnamed "specialists," and Thomas, citing Michigan pathologist Dr. Werner Spitz, say pathologists told police that someone struck JonBenet in the head with a bat or a metal object such as a flashlight (each was found in the home, clean of fingerprints). Her skull was fractured. Massive brain damage was instantaneous. She could never have regained consciousness.

The link was gone just now, JMO. I recognized the page though and think I visited it once.

It is interesting about the flashlight and bat but I just don't think so based on the autopsy and photos. Steve Thomas doesn't seem to think so either since, if I remember correctly, he thought she had an accident with the bath tub. I haven't read that part in so long I've forgotten what Thomas did say. I'll try to re-read it tonight.

The autopsy doesn't describe massive brain damage though. It describes bleeding and implies swelling. There isn't any thing that I read that sounds like massive brain damage. There's damage, of course, but the swelling and leakage seems to be what brought on a coma or unconscious state. We know from the autopsy and other written reports that JonBenet could have lived for up to an hour after the head wound. It would have been nice if Schiller had cited his sources and who said what.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but having shown the photos and autopsy to someone whose opinion I trust, I don't think a single blow with a flashlight or bat could make an 8+ inch fracture. Maybe something else happened in combination with that. I don't know. If she was hit with a bat, it had to be in a open space.

I think her head struck something instead of something striking her.

 

[coloradokares]

I absolutely agree,and it can swing in the opposite direction as well,(even within the same person),my bdp relative thinks at times that he doesn't need any money to live on,(as if the rest of the world will take care of him);as if he thinks he's that great or something.I think it's called grandious behavior.

That too spending themselves into the ground then they run up huge debts when that ends they find a way to keep going till usually the loved ones have just had it.

 

[BOESP]

I think she was watching TV on the end of her bed and fell asleep and wet the bed. Patsy tries to wake her and JB aregues or gives Patsy an "elbow" and Patsy loses it and grabs her around the collar and says "lets go". She did have scrapes on her legs didn't she?

That can't be right, their would have been urine left on the bed spread. Don't we see the bedspread at the end of the bed with a pillow over it and some clothes. Possibly she fell asleep and wet the portion with the sheets - I am serious.

She is in no mood and does not realize her own strength but she is infuriated and exhausted. It is over in seconds.

I can see four possibilities. JonBenet may have worn pull-ups and soaked/soiled them but not enough to leak through so the bed linens were clean but JonBenet was not. So, Patsy had to get JonBenet cleaned for bed again. Or, JonBenet was still awake and watching a video and Patsy told her it was time for lights out and JonBenet pitched a hissy. Or a combination of the two. Or something else entirely that involved an altercation.

 

[BOESP]

I always wondered about that remark, and thought it was a weird one because John had already been divorced by the time Patsy hooked up with him. The Paughs don't divorce, but they have no problem marrying those who do...but maybe you've hit it on the head, and that comment held a different meaning altogether.

When discussing the possibility of the bathroom being the scene of the original altercation, don't forget that police noticed an odor similar to ammonia in the vicinity of JonBenet's bathroom. What was that about? People have speculated that it was from a late-night dye job, and that explains JB's ponytails, but her hair wasn't wet and her roots were the same color as her hair.

Did it have something to do with what happened to JB, or was the smell the result of something that happened later, like cleaning? Why would the bathroom still smell like ammonia by the time police arrived if it was from something that was happening while JB was still alive and conscious? Why would anyone need to clean in that room, if a cleaning agent was the source of the smell?

Just seeing how JonBenet's hair had been styled in the party pictures from the Whites would answer some questions. I wish Thomas had talked more about how JB's hair was styled, and since he didn't, I'm left wondering if he didn't because her hair was the same at the party as it was when she was found.

That divorce comment is interesting.

The ammonia smell could come from stale urine. I also remember reading that Patsy had colored her hair Christmas day (if I remember correctly) but I don't remember which room she used.

Does anyone know if Patsy used hair extensions on JonBenet? I've tried to find out and can't find anything. Some of her pageant videos and photos look like she did. If so, that could account for the lower pony tail -- the smaller, lower hair could be twisted into a "bun" and used as an attachment for an extension or fall. The top pony tail would cover up the "bun" and attachment. That's the only thing I can think that might explain having two pony tails.

 

[BOESP]

I think John did that. Fibers from his sweater were found in her underwear? Weren't they? ....

Here you go, Solace.

Atlanta 2000 interviews, BRUCE LEVIN, on behalf of the United States.

MR. LEVIN: I understand your
9 position.
10 In addition to those questions,
11 there are some others that I would like you
12 to think about whether or not we can have
13 Mrs. Ramsey perhaps in the future answer. I
14 understand you are advising her not to today,
15 and those are there are black fibers that,
16 according to our testing that was conducted,
17 that match one of the two shirts that was
18 provided to us by the Ramseys, black shirt.
19 Those are located in the
20 underpants of JonBenet Ramsey, were found in
21 her crotch area, and I believe those are two
22 other areas that we have intended to ask
23 Mrs. Ramsey about if she could help us in
24 explaining their presence in those locations.

From full interview at http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/2000ATL-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

unusually brutal ransom note??? it comes across as soft as mashed potatoes! you can tell it's written by a woman,not just the handwriting itself,but things such as 'you will need to be rested' and the reminder to bring an 'adequate size attache' are not the verses of a hard-nosed criminal.I sense no real threat from it;the deed had already been done.
Just who do you think you're kidding,Holdon???? It's crystal clear.

It was the most brutal ransom note in history in terms of violence directed at a child.

Any arguments?

That the crime scene and RN were brutal isn't the question, because thats obvious. The question is whether the brutality evident at the crime scene is real or staged.

Its probably real, because the hemmorhage on JBR's neck is evidence the ligature was on her before she died. There is also no evidence to indicate what object caused the damage to JBR's head. Thats a big unknown in the accident/coverup scenario. Kinda like the cord that came and went with the crime.

BTW maybe you live in a small town, because there are men who sound more feminine than most women, and vice-versa! There's no way you could infer sex just from the RN. You have to just be deciding between JR and PR.

 

[JMO8778]

It was the most brutal ransom note in history in terms of violence directed at a child.

Any arguments?

yes,it looks like something Patsy wrote in between cooking the mashed potatoes and the green beans ! after which I bet she used that good southern common sense of hers and got some rest ! comon' now,really...who do you think you're kidding?

That the crime scene and RN were brutal isn't the question, because thats obvious. The question is whether the brutality evident at the crime scene is real or staged.

oh,I think we can safely say it was staged!

Its probably real, because the hemmorhage on JBR's neck is evidence the ligature was on her before she died.

no no no..that's Patsy's thumbprint on her neck,as per Dr Spitz determining she was manually strangled with her shirt collar first.

There is also no evidence to indicate what object caused the damage to JBR's head. Thats a big unknown in the accident/coverup scenario.

I believe Boesp here when she says it's a high pressure/low velocity wound..I think an object would have broken the skin,amongst other things.If JB was thrown into a hard,unmovable object,something had to give somewhere,and it wasn't going to be the hard,unmovable object.

BTW maybe you live in a small town, because there are men who sound more feminine than most women, and vice-versa! There's no way you could infer sex just from the RN. You have to just be deciding between JR and PR.

I don't and anyway,that's just plain silly.It was determined to be written by a southern female;the handwriting alone appears female,much less to get into the specifics of what it says...it would have been scary if perhaps she'd written it block style,short and to the point,as in:

GOT YOUR KID.1 MILL GETS HER BACK.
WILL CALL.DON'T CALL POLICE !

See? that sounds real...Patsy wrote a story only someone who was desperate to save her own arse could write..how in heck she thought anyone could ever believe it to be real is beyond me.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

yes,it looks like something Patsy wrote in between cooking the mashed potatoes and the green beans ! after which I bet she used that good southern common sense of hers and got some rest ! comon' now,really...who do you think you're kidding?

oh,I think we can safely say it was staged!

no no no..that's Patsy's thumbprint on her neck,as per Dr Spitz determining she was manually strangled with her shirt collar first.

I believe Boesp here when she says it's a high pressure/low velocity wound..I think an object would have broken the skin,amongst other things.If JB was thrown into a hard,unmovable object,something had to give somewhere,and it wasn't going to be the hard,unmovable object.

I don't and anyway,that's just plain silly.It was determined to be written by a southern female;the handwriting alone appears female,much less to get into the specifics of what it says...it would have been scary if perhaps she'd written it block style,short and to the point,as in:

GOT YOUR KID.1 MILL GETS HER BACK.
WILL CALL.DON'T CALL POLICE !

See? that sounds real...Patsy wrote a story only someone who was desperate to save her own arse could write..how in heck she thought anyone could ever believe it to be real is beyond me.

Wrong on all points, IMO.

Written by someone not worried about leaving 2 1/2 pages of handwriting samples, because they knew their writing was not subject to comparison.

Someone out of the country.

 

[DeeDee249]

The door knob as source of the skull fracture makes a point. It would be about the right height for a 6-year old's skull. The ceramic tilework that covers the built- in tub LOOKS like a sharp right-angle, too.
Coming from Jameson, there is no guarantee that this is the bathroom as it was when JBR died, but it is being represented as such, obviously. The real crime scene photos would have that answer. I do know that Jameson's "house tour" photos, as well as some others out there, do show all the rooms empty and painted white, some with new carpeting as well, and we all know this was obviously done after the home was bought by a "group of R friends and supporters". (a small foreign faction?)
Has anyone ever seen a list of those "friends and supporters" who bought that house from the Rs? I'd love to know who they were and if any R lawyers were in on it. What an opportunity to erase evidence! This case was a murderer's DREAM! Have the DA tie the cops' hands and refuse to supoena phone records, medical records, as well as hampering the questioning of the Rs, have the governor menace the DA's office, have the R's defense team "connected" to the governor and DA's office, then have the ability to repaint, recarpet and totally clean the crime scene!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

no no no..that's Patsy's thumbprint on her neck,as per Dr Spitz determining she was manually strangled with her shirt collar first.

Uh, no. Not Patsy's thumprint, and not even close to Patsy's thumprint.

Petechial hemorrhages are all over JBR's neck above and below the ligature furrow, according to the autopsy report. Those are red pinpoints that happen when an airway is cut off. The idea that a shirt collar was used before the ligature to strangle JBR is just ridiculous, IMO.

 

[DeeDee249]

As far as JR molesting his daughter- we'll never know for sure if it was that or PR's vigorous cleansing of JBR, but he LOOKS sleazy enough to do it.

Back a few pages, there was a mention of the skull puncture and lack of autopsy mention of severly damaged brain matter. There was an example given of a 300 lb man swinging the flashlight or bat. But this was NOT a 300 lb man- but PR who was likely less than half that weight. That makes a big difference. Someone PR's size probably could have caused that fracture while not damaging the brain matter. And she probably didn't raise her arm back into a full-over-the-head swing, either.
Yes, this case would have gotten a BIG break if what caused the skull damage was known. Today's forensics could have tested the edges of the skull as well as her scalp for fragments of plactic/metal/rubber/porcelain.
Actually, forensics THEN could have done it, with more time. Hmmmm...who was it that refused to keep the body for further testing? Oh, yeah...Meyer. Think he was leaned on? You betcha. Oh, and who accused the police of holding the body for "ransom" ? Oh yeah, the DA's office. They wanted her OUT of their custody and buried. Then they could refuse to order a timely exhumation, which would have also answered the "stun-gun" questions----case over.