The actual vs. desired outcome

[BOESP]

I believe..IMO..that after Patsy injured JB....she probably placed her on the bed, to try to revive her...after she realized that she had been knocked unconscious. She SCREAMED bloody murder for John, who was getting ready for bed...and maybe already IN the bed. He runs in wearing just his underwear...(sorry for the visual!)....and tries to help revive her. THAT..imo...explains why he said that he looked under JB's bed, for her...while wearing his underwear. Just in case, any underwear fibers were found around the bed. I still don't think that he was molesting her....maybe so...but, I just can't wrap my mind around that, even though...it happens ALL THE TIME, probably every second of every day, a child is molested by their own father. But, for some reason....as slimey as John is....I just can't see him doing that. And WHY would he do that anyway, with Patsy still in the house...that makes no sense.

Ames, I agree with you on this.

If I remember correctly from the layout of the Ramsey house and a layout of the neighborhood (I can't remember where these diagrams were but I think www.realsundancekid.com), JonBenet's bedroom was either directly or diagonally across the street from the Stanton home. I know some of the cops and the public discount Melody Stanton's testimony but I sit on the fence with that. However, I don't think it could necessarily be identified as a child's scream or woman's scream. Screams can be tricky and sound carries in odd ways. But your scenario above sure convinces me (if I needed convincing ).

 

[Ames]

Lack of parenting skills in a self-centered person???? Or, you know who did it and aren't afraid for your other child to be in a friend's hands (particularly friends who you later throw under the bus)????

NP, I think they forgot to CYA when it came to Burke. I am convinced there was a plan to "find" JonBenet and Linda Arndt's suggestion was the opportunity John was waiting for (so he wouldn't have to construct an opportunity). I think they sent Burke away so he wouldn't be exposed to seeing JonBenet in rigor, wrapped in a blanket and placed upstairs for the world to see.

I totally agree...and to try and keep him from being questioned.

 

[Ames]

Ames, I agree with you on this.

If I remember correctly from the layout of the Ramsey house and a layout of the neighborhood (I can't remember where these diagrams were but I think www.realsundancekid.com), JonBenet's bedroom was either directly or diagonally across the street from the Stanton home. I know some of the cops and the public discount Melody Stanton's testimony but I sit on the fence with that. However, I don't think it could necessarily be identified as a child's scream or woman's scream. Screams can be tricky and sound carries in odd ways. But your scenario above sure convinces me (if I needed convincing ).

Yep, I believe that the scream was Patsy's...I have always thought that...from day one. A high shrill is a high shrill....I agree with you, how can you determine if it was a woman's frantic scream, or a little girl's terrified scream....to me, they would probably sound the same. I do not believe that JB had TIME to scream, I think that it happened way to fast. She may have been crying at the time of the accident, but I don't believe that she would have had a reason to scream....until the head wound, and then it would have been too late to scream, because she wouldn't have been able to.

 

[JMO8778]

Thomas said he hoped she was unconscious when the staged vaginal assault took place...so I wonder,did he have reason to believe she might have become conscious enough to scream when that happened?

 

[JMO8778]

why didn't he really stick it to JR and kill both kids at once, and then set fire to the house on his way out?

exactly ! there could have been a lot more done to hurt JR;such as a bomb on Patsy's car set to go off when she's in it w/ both the kids,etc.And it would certainly be easier to do a KN away from the house,rather than in it.Someone could have run her off the road,etc.

 

[JMO8778]

That's what I'm banking on, JMO. Thomas goes into good detail on some things, and glosses over other things. I think he definitely knows more than he is saying, but I really have to wonder exactly what it is that has him giving JR such little involvement.

I just can't believe that JR would see that RN and not realize his wife wrote it. I further cannot believe that he would jeopardize having JonBenet's head cut off by letting Patsy make seemingly hysterical calls to police and friends, and I definitely do not believe that JR would have let Burke go anywhere with anyone if he had actually believed the ransom note could possibly be real.

So in my mind, based on the fact that JR seemed to think nothing of disregarding the threats in the RN as if he knew there was no real threat, I really have to wonder why Thomas didn't address that.

I suspect there is more evidence on JR than was released to the public...so in order to not reveal it,he had to leave JR out of the scenario he presented in his book.For one thing,JR sure was worried about his underwear fibers,and his fingerprints on the walk-in fridge;enough to bother to mention both in DOI.And then Patsy talking about how if their room at the Stine's was bugged,all LE could have possibly heard was a white noise machine Susan had put in there.They were both thinking ahead on quite a few things.
And then there's Melinda's finance also saying Patsy was standing in the front yard wearing a fur coat and fur boots,but JR says Patsy saw them and ran to them.He practically calls Stewart a liar.

On top of that, IIRC, after the Rs leave the house to go to the Fernie's, they don't go pick up Burke at the Whites right away - someone brings him over to the Fernie's later. Why on EARTH would you leave your other child at a friend's house if you've found your youngest dead in the basement and don't know who killed her or where that person is?

indeed,I believe they would have been clinging to him,had there really been an intruder.
I really think poor Burke was harshly told to keep quiet and not ask any q's on the way out and to/at the Whites house.I think he was just scared stiff to even say a word at that point.LE did question him,but what he said,if anything,wasn't revealed.

 

[DeeDee249]

I totally agree...and to try and keep him from being questioned.

I agree as well. This is an interesting point. If they sent BR away to keep him from seeing his dead sister, of course that implies that they already knew she was dead. At that time of the morning, LE (and R friends) were still operating on the assumption that this was a kidnapping for ransom. But the Rs knew of course, that there had been no kidnapping. If FW had been in that basement earlier, he may have already had his suspicions. Obviously JR was unaware of FW's suspicions at this point or he would NOT have sent BR there.
Any innocent parent of a kidnapper or murdered child WANTS the surviving child to speak about what they saw/heard, even if not right then and there. That they wanted BR hidden away and prevented him from being questioned speaks volumes on their guilt. The Rs also certainly did not want BR to witness the scene after the discovery of the body either. And I can certainly as a parent understand the need to protect him. But they put the cart before the horse here. At the time they sent BR to the Whites, they were protecting him from events that they should have had no knowledge of at that time. The death of his sister and the horrible scene that would follow her discovery.
At that time of the morning, she was supposed to be kidnapped, location unknown, not dead in the basement - and I just cannot see any parent letting their remaining child out of their sight for a second. The family would stay close together.

 

[JMO8778]

I agree as well. This is an interesting point. If they sent BR away to keep him from seeing his dead sister, of course that implies that they already knew she was dead. At that time of the morning, LE (and R friends) were still operating on the assumption that this was a kidnapping for ransom. But the Rs knew of course, that there had been no kidnapping. If FW had been in that basement earlier, he may have already had his suspicions. Obviously JR was unaware of FW's suspicions at this point or he would NOT have sent BR there.
Any innocent parent of a kidnapper or murdered child WANTS the surviving child to speak about what they saw/heard, even if not right then and there. That they wanted BR hidden away and prevented him from being questioned speaks volumes on their guilt. The Rs also certainly did not want BR to witness the scene after the discovery of the body either. And I can certainly as a parent understand the need to protect him. But they put the cart before the horse here. At the time they sent BR to the Whites, they were protecting him from events that they should have had no knowledge of at that time. The death of his sister and the horrible scene that would follow her discovery.
At that time of the morning, she was supposed to be kidnapped, location unknown, not dead in the basement - and I just cannot see any parent letting their remaining child out of their sight for a second. The family would stay close together.

who all was staying w. BR while FW was at the R's? I think PW's family was in town? Still,you'd think JR would have wanted him to stay w. BR to protect him from the 'SFF'.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

who all was staying w. BR while FW was at the R's? I think PW's family was in town? Still,you'd think JR would have wanted him to stay w. BR to protect him from the 'SFF'.

The people staying at the Whites for the holidays were PW's niece and her husband, Heather and Bill Cox, and PW's sister, Allison Shoeny, and her boyfriend, Cliff Gaston.

I cannot understand why J&P would allow Burke to leave their home and their protective, watchful presence to go anywhere when the youngest is missing and there's an RN threatening to cut her head off, and I further cannot believe they would continue to leave him there while they go somewhere else after they've found their missing child dead in the house and still don't know where the killer is or what else he might do.

They had to know. They had to know she was dead in the house and would be found, and they had to know Burke would be safe elsewhere, even after the kidnapping became a murder. They obviously sent him away and left him where he was to keep him from being traumatized.

What I don't get is, how did Burke seem to know there was nothing to be afraid of? He did not live the rest of his life like a kid whose sister has been killed by an intruding stranger who might strike again, killing him this time. How did he know he did not and still does not need to be afraid of the killer at all?

 

[JMO8778]

The people staying at the Whites for the holidays were PW's niece and her husband, Heather and Bill Cox, and PW's sister, Allison Shoeny, and her boyfriend, Cliff Gaston.

I cannot understand why J&P would allow Burke to leave their home and their protective, watchful presence to go anywhere when the youngest is missing and there's an RN threatening to cut her head off, and I further cannot believe they would continue to leave him there while they go somewhere else after they've found their missing child dead in the house and still don't know where the killer is or what else he might do.

They had to know. They had to know she was dead in the house and would be found, and they had to know Burke would be safe elsewhere, even after the kidnapping became a murder. They obviously sent him away and left him where he was to keep him from being traumatized.

absolutely,I agree.

What I don't get is, how did Burke seem to know there was nothing to be afraid of? He did not live the rest of his life like a kid whose sister has been killed by an intruding stranger who might strike again, killing him this time. How did he know he did not and still does not need to be afraid of the killer at all?

I've wondered about that,too.The best I can figure is he saw or heard something,and is repressing it.So his subconscious is telling him there's no need to be afraid.He's probably rationalized that out for survival purposes,sort of like when someone gets KN,they learn to identify w/ their abductor in order to stay alive.IOW he may have been thinking, 'mom won't hurt me because I don't wet the bed anymore,and I don't defy her or give her problems like JB did'.

If anyone has any other thoughts on it,pls share,it's baffled me,too.

 

[UKGuy]

The people staying at the Whites for the holidays were PW's niece and her husband, Heather and Bill Cox, and PW's sister, Allison Shoeny, and her boyfriend, Cliff Gaston.

I cannot understand why J&P would allow Burke to leave their home and their protective, watchful presence to go anywhere when the youngest is missing and there's an RN threatening to cut her head off, and I further cannot believe they would continue to leave him there while they go somewhere else after they've found their missing child dead in the house and still don't know where the killer is or what else he might do.

They had to know. They had to know she was dead in the house and would be found, and they had to know Burke would be safe elsewhere, even after the kidnapping became a murder. They obviously sent him away and left him where he was to keep him from being traumatized.

What I don't get is, how did Burke seem to know there was nothing to be afraid of? He did not live the rest of his life like a kid whose sister has been killed by an intruding stranger who might strike again, killing him this time. How did he know he did not and still does not need to be afraid of the killer at all?

Nuisanceposter,

Burke was not completely ignorant of events that night, he arrived home with JonBenet and his initial version of events contradicts his parent's account. Also with his fingerprints on the pineapple bowl, he will know who snacked pineapple with JonBenet and who sanctioned it at that time of night. Also he will know if his fathers version of events is correct of some other sequence took place?

So Burke knows and he knows more today than he probably did on the day JonBenet's body was discovered. He is the person that holds the key to the case, but given his loyalty to his father I doubt he will ever talk, not unless drink or drugs intervene.

 

[Ames]

exactly ! there could have been a lot more done to hurt JR;such as a bomb on Patsy's car set to go off when she's in it w/ both the kids,etc.And it would certainly be easier to do a KN away from the house,rather than in it.Someone could have run her off the road,etc.

And WHY JB? Why not Burke? IMO...a boy would be alot closer to his dad, than a daughter would be. Of course, I don't have any sons....so I may be wrong. JB was closer to her mother though, that is a known fact...as I think that most girls are closer to their moms. And I agree...why not a bomb on Patsy's car....why not wait until EVERYBODY is out of the house....kids are at school, John is at work....and kill or kidnap Patsy? Whether it be by a bomb on the car, or just breaking in....speaking of which. I think that IF an intruder...or THREE intruders as some IDI's claim, broke into a wealthy person's home...you would THINK that they would have taken SOMETHING!!! But they took NOTHING....not even the flashlight, so that they could use it to see with. Not even John's cigar boxes and cigars...that he smuggled in from Cuba. NOTHING!

 

[Ames]

I suspect there is more evidence on JR than was released to the public...so in order to not reveal it,he had to leave JR out of the scenario he presented in his book.For one thing,JR sure was worried about his underwear fibers,and his fingerprints on the walk-in fridge;enough to bother to mention both in DOI.And then Patsy talking about how if their room at the Stine's was bugged,all LE could have possibly heard was a white noise machine Susan had put in there.They were both thinking ahead on quite a few things.
And then there's Melinda's finance also saying Patsy was standing in the front yard wearing a fur coat and fur boots,but JR says Patsy saw them and ran to them.He practically calls Stewart a liar.






indeed,I believe they would have been clinging to him,had there really been an intruder.
I really think poor Burke was harshly told to keep quiet and not ask any q's on the way out and to/at the Whites house.I think he was just scared stiff to even say a word at that point.LE did question him,but what he said,if anything,wasn't revealed.

There are alot of things that bother me about John...but one of the main things is...in his 98 Interview...he ADMITS that he went outside and looked around, for a whopping 30 SECONDS!!!! NOT 30 MINUTES!!! NOT ONE HOUR AND 30 SECONDS!!! BUT...30 SECONDS!!!!! This is odd to me. If I thought that my child had been kidnapped...I would have ran..not walked...outside....and searched for ANY clues whatsoever. If her hair was in a ponytail when she went to bed...look for a ponytail holder...or her necklace that she wore to bed....for example. I have said this before, but if you guys have NOT seen an arial view of the Ramsey's home...and neighborhood...and have seen for yourself that those houses are thisclose....you need to check it out. I have no clue what link it is, but it is on FFJ...you would have to do a search. If I can find it again, I will post it here. I...as well as other FFJ posters....were blown away by how close those houses are. By looking at the house on the news, when the murder happened...I thought that it was on several acres all by itself...boy was I wrong. It was just something that I assumed. Those houses are just like you would see in a subdivision. My point is...JOHN could have pounded on some doors and asked a few questions to the neighbors...that's what I did, when my child went missing. BUT NOOOOOO...John, HIMSELF...says that he spent 30 seconds "looking around" the backside of the house. WOW....that sure is "alot" of time, John...that you spent outside "looking for your daughter, and for clues, and talking to your neighbors." You really seem like a "concerned, worried" parent.

 

[Ames]

The people staying at the Whites for the holidays were PW's niece and her husband, Heather and Bill Cox, and PW's sister, Allison Shoeny, and her boyfriend, Cliff Gaston.

I cannot understand why J&P would allow Burke to leave their home and their protective, watchful presence to go anywhere when the youngest is missing and there's an RN threatening to cut her head off, and I further cannot believe they would continue to leave him there while they go somewhere else after they've found their missing child dead in the house and still don't know where the killer is or what else he might do.

They had to know. They had to know she was dead in the house and would be found, and they had to know Burke would be safe elsewhere, even after the kidnapping became a murder. They obviously sent him away and left him where he was to keep him from being traumatized.

What I don't get is, how did Burke seem to know there was nothing to be afraid of? He did not live the rest of his life like a kid whose sister has been killed by an intruding stranger who might strike again, killing him this time. How did he know he did not and still does not need to be afraid of the killer at all?

Because...IMO..he knows alot more than he is telling. Gp back and read Patsy's 98 interview...where she says that Burke NEVER asked about his sister, or talked about her. She said that he spent his time playing Nintendo. I think that is ODD!! When one of the doctors. asked him to draw a picture of his family...right after the murder...he draws it, and leaves out JB. The dr. said this was odd...because almost all kids STILL include the dead sibling, long after they have passed away.

 

[Ames]

Nuisanceposter,

Burke was not completely ignorant of events that night, he arrived home with JonBenet and his initial version of events contradicts his parent's account. Also with his fingerprints on the pineapple bowl, he will know who snacked pineapple with JonBenet and who sanctioned it at that time of night. Also he will know if his fathers version of events is correct of some other sequence took place?

So Burke knows and he knows more today than he probably did on the day JonBenet's body was discovered. He is the person that holds the key to the case, but given his loyalty to his father I doubt he will ever talk, not unless drink or drugs intervene.

Now that he is of age...I would LOVE to see him take a polygraph....but, I am sure...that in Boulder...hell would freeze over first.

 

[coloradokares]

Now that he is of age...I would LOVE to see him take a polygraph....but, I am sure...that in Boulder...hell would freeze over first.

Brrrr I felt a sudden cooling trend out here just at the mere suggestion of that. Seriously they need to start holding people accountable top to bottom. Not that I am suggesting a cover up or malfesance of any kind or sort .:doh:

 

[Ames]

Brrrr I felt a sudden cooling trend out here just at the mere suggestion of that. Seriously they need to start holding people accountable top to bottom. Not that I am suggesting a cover up or malfesance of any kind or sort .:doh:

I guarantee you that no charges will EVER be filed in this case. It will be a "COLD CASE" forever. I would love to see it featured on America's Most Wanted...but the Ramsey's put the skids on THAT idea.

 

[coloradokares]

I guarantee you that no charges will EVER be filed in this case. It will be a "COLD CASE" forever. I would love to see it featured on America's Most Wanted...but the Ramsey's put the skids on THAT idea.

I was hopeful when we swore in the new Gov. Not any more.. As long as Lacey has a firm grip its a done deal. We need an outside prosecutor. Or a miracle. They are doing nothing with this case except parading wannabes like JMK by for general amusement. This case was solved a very long time ago. It was simply never prosecuted.

 

[JMO8778]

I guarantee you that no charges will EVER be filed in this case. It will be a "COLD CASE" forever. I would love to see it featured on America's Most Wanted...but the Ramsey's put the skids on THAT idea.

I can't help but wonder if they were afraid someone would call in anonymously and tell more than we publicly know now.

 

[JMO8778]

There are alot of things that bother me about John...but one of the main things is...in his 98 Interview...he ADMITS that he went outside and looked around, for a whopping 30 SECONDS!!!! NOT 30 MINUTES!!! NOT ONE HOUR AND 30 SECONDS!!! BUT...30 SECONDS!!!!! This is odd to me. If I thought that my child had been kidnapped...I would have ran..not walked...outside....and searched for ANY clues whatsoever. If her hair was in a ponytail when she went to bed...look for a ponytail holder...or her necklace that she wore to bed....for example. I have said this before, but if you guys have NOT seen an arial view of the Ramsey's home...and neighborhood...and have seen for yourself that those houses are thisclose....you need to check it out. I have no clue what link it is, but it is on FFJ...you would have to do a search. If I can find it again, I will post it here. I...as well as other FFJ posters....were blown away by how close those houses are. By looking at the house on the news, when the murder happened...I thought that it was on several acres all by itself...boy was I wrong. It was just something that I assumed. Those houses are just like you would see in a subdivision. My point is...JOHN could have pounded on some doors and asked a few questions to the neighbors...that's what I did, when my child went missing. BUT NOOOOOO...John, HIMSELF...says that he spent 30 seconds "looking around" the backside of the house. WOW....that sure is "alot" of time, John...that you spent outside l"ooking for your daughter, and for clues, and talking to your neighbors." You really seem like a "concerned, worried" parent.

my neighbors look for their missing horses more than they looked for JB that morning! sometimes they jump the fence and they're always walking 2-3 miles down the rd looking for them,within just a few minutes.(and no,no small town girl here,they were allowed to keep them when annexed).