the cadaver dog

[saggymoon]

When the cadaver and blood dog were finally brought in, it was about 3 months after Madeleine's disappearance.

Since cadaver dogs can still pick up dead body scent long after a body has been removed from the scene and has been disposed of far away from the original locality, their finding of the corpse is not a necessary consequence.

Maybe this was not case of murder/manslaughter but a tragic accident with lethal outcome that happend during the parents' absence, which they then tried to cover up in a panic, and successfully hid the body somewhere before ultimately disposing of it?

agree everything points to it

the mccanns lies are too many they are def not inocent

after all they are proven liars

 

[brit1981]

agree everything points to it

the mccanns lies are too many they are def not inocent

after all they are proven liars

They are not proven liars, and there is nothng to poitn towards her parents being involved in her disappearence. far more things point to it being an outsider. What lies do you believe they have been proven to tell?

 

[saggymoon]

cadaver dogs are trained on dead and decomposing animals, and in eddies case real human cadavers in the usa, they do NOT alert to vegetables, pizza, bad breath, semen, coconuts etc. The experts at kew gardens wouldnt have a clue why where and to what eddie was alerting to, nothing to do with them. Ifthey were given a coconut they were given a coconut. Means nothing except someone picked up a coconut. Nothing to do with the cadaver dog. Its getting as funny as some apologists who say cadaver dogs react to fruit cake. Were any coconuts found in the mccanns flat or car?

The other apology is that eddie also alerts to blood. This cannot explain away his several alerts in the flat and on the clothes of kate mccann because the blood csi dog keela was sent in there after him and did not a,ert, therefore he was not alerting to blood, that leaves the onky other thing he is trained to alert to and that is the scent of human decomposition. Very sad.

 

[brit1981]

But eddie did alert to the coconut when they found it. Grime admitted they could make mistakes when he was asked about this. Grimes also states that Eddie also alerts to bodily fluids including blood. Why would Grimes claim the dogs could make mistakes, and claim Eddie also alerts to bodily fluids if this was not true?
And cadaver dogs have alerted and then the victim turn up alive - look at the shannon mathews case.

Also you said the mccanns were proven liars, what lies have they been proven to tell?

 

[saggymoon]

But eddie did alert to the coconut when they found it. Grime admitted they could make mistakes when he was asked about this. Grimes also states that Eddie also alerts to bodily fluids including blood. Why would Grimes claim the dogs could make mistakes, and claim Eddie also alerts to bodily fluids if this was not true?
And cadaver dogs have alerted and then the victim turn up alive - look at the shannon mathews case.

Also you said the mccanns were proven liars, what lies have they been proven to tell?

Grimes never said the cadaver dog reacts to body fluids, only blood, pls provide a link for that assertion

Also provide a link where he says the dog makes mistakes, thanks, i only recall him saying it is possible the dog could make a false alert but his dog never has in over 200 searches

btw eddie did not alert to a coconut, did you not read my previous post, cadaver dogs dont alert to plants only the remnant scent of human decomposition

 

[brit1981]

I have provided plenty of links before for you so look at those. Eddie did alert to coconut, that is the whole point - it is claimed he only alerts to cadavers and bodily fluids (bodily fluids decompose as well so it would not be possible to differentiate between a decomposing bodiy fluid and other decomposing tissue, they break down to the same components) by Grimes, but he made a whopping mistake in Jersey when he alerted to coconut shell. Grimes admitted they could make mistakes. There is a reason why courts do not use cadaver dogs as evidence, they are innaccurate. This is also in one of the links I provided earlier.

And if you actually read the papers published about decomposition then you would understand the general consensous among scientists is that the chemicals from decomposition do only last for thirty days after the removal of the body. They also only appear once a body has began to decompose. Considering that it takes the different organs of the body up to ninety minutes to die, decomposition would not start until after the last organ had died so a body would have to have been there in the one spot for over ninty minutes for any scent to appear.

 

[saggymoon]

I have provided plenty of links before for you so look at those. Eddie did alert to coconut, that is the whole point - it is claimed he only alerts to cadavers and bodily fluids (bodily fluids decompose as well so it would not be possible to differentiate between a decomposing bodiy fluid and other decomposing tissue, they break down to the same components) by Grimes, but he made a whopping mistake in Jersey when he alerted to coconut shell. Grimes admitted they could make mistakes. There is a reason why courts do not use cadaver dogs as evidence, they are innaccurate. This is also in one of the links I provided earlier.

And if you actually read the papers published about decomposition then you would understand the general consensous among scientists is that the chemicals from decomposition do only last for thirty days after the removal of the body. They also only appear once a body has began to decompose. Considering that it takes the different organs of the body up to ninety minutes to die, decomposition would not start until after the last organ had died so a body would have to have been there in the one spot for over ninty minutes for any scent to appear.

you have evaded my questions, where is the link to prove mr grime said his dogs make mistakes and the link whre he said he reacts to fluidsgood luck with that

where is the proof eddie alerted to a coconut

as for the scent of death lasting no more than 30 days perhaps u should email law enforcement the world throughout seeing as they employ cadaver dogs months after a body is missing and tell them they are wasting their time, dang

its a fact that cadaver dogs have been utilises in many cases after months and years where they alerted to dead body scent and the alledged missing person was found dead elsewhere, studies have been done a,so that prove dogs can alert to the scent after the removal of the o riginal material for up to 14 months and more

 

[brit1981]

I have provided links before but if you do not want to look back, then I have added them below. Eddie did alert to coconut, that is the whole point - it is claimed he only alerts to cadavers and bodily fluids (bodily fluids decompose as well so it would not be possible to differentiate between a decomposing bodiy fluid and other decomposing tissue, they break down to the same components) by Grimes, but he made a whopping mistake in Jersey when he alerted to coconut shell. Grimes admitted they could make mistakes. There is a reason why courts do not use cadaver dogs as evidence, they are innaccurate. This is also in one of the links I provided earlier.

And if one reads the papers published about decomposition then one would understand that the chemicals from decomposition do only last for about thirty days after the removal of the body (especially if the body had not been there very ong at all). They also only appear once a body has began to decompose. Considering that it takes the different organs of the body up to three hours to die, a body would have to have been there in the one spot for a good while for any scent to appear. But was that the only lie you felt they had been proven to tell - the scientific opinion on cadaverine?

When you say people are saying eddie alerts to bad breath etc I think what they may have been trying to say is that two of the chemicals that cadaver dogs are trained to alert to are cadaverine and putrescine. These two chemicals are also found in the urine of some people, as well as seman, and cause bad breath. They are also present in all decomposing organic matter. It is not possible to detemine if the chemicals originated from a body, urine, seman, etc without any other other evidence.

http://www.hmdb.ca/metabolites/HMDB02322
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7435118
http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/36543356/cadaverine-as-putative-component-oral-malodor
http://iese.nust.edu.pk/Dr. Ali Awan Publications/Paper 2.pdf
http://kops.ub.uni-konstanz.de/bits...e:bsz:352-opus-85707/AppEnvMic.pdf?sequence=1

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/15959107
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/eur...ey/7723860.stm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1JuPiWWaT

 

[brit1981]

I have not evaded your question I provided the links you asked for, the information you asked for is in them. Why do you not read them? The adacdemic papers I linked to are mainly just abstracts, but you should be able to access the full papers if you have an athens password, but if you do not have access to these journals the abstract provides the jist.
You just do not seem to understand how cadaver dogs work. Grimes states in his police statement Eddie alerts to cadaver scents and blood. Plus as dogs are trained with cadaverine then they will alert to anything that contains cadaverine, which is not limited to just corpses, but bodily fluids. That is why scientists are trying to find new ways to train dogs as cadaverine is not accurate enough. that is why the police report in the link above says in many missing people searches cadaver dogs do more harm than good.
Nothing was found where Eddie alerted in the mccanns flat, there was some blood that belonged to someone other than a mccann, but other than that he did not find anything. There is no reason to believe he did not make a false alert yet again. If the dogs were so accurate that them yapping after they have been called to a spot on more than one occasion (after ignoring it as Eddie did in the mccann flat) meant anything they could be used in courts as evidence. But they are deemed so inaccurate they are not used as evidence. Look at shannon mathews, cadaver dogs alerted, yet she was not dead.
Also you said the Mccanns have been proven to lie, but the only example you gave was over scientific opinion on cadaverine. When did you see that this had been disproved? Was there a new study on cadaverine? Had it been disproved at the time the book was written? Do you now what journal it was published in if this is the case I would be interested to read it. Also was that the only lie you felt had been proven?
Also no film was published of the dogs searchng other flats, and when you look at the car search eddie did bark in other places but they did not look there. Eddie also did not bark at the mccann's car until his handler stopped there and called him back several times until he eventually barked. He ignored it just like the other cars, but on the video this is the only one he is called back to.
If you read the police files you will see that some of the Portuguese question the accuracy of the dog as he ignored the things he later alerted to several times and had to have his attention drawn to an area two or three times before he would bark.
There is actually no video showing eddie alerting to the toy either. The video shows eddie chucking the toy about and then ignoring it a couple of times. It then shows him running around the place. It then shows him repeatedly being called to a cupboard. It shows him repeatedly ignoring the cupboard. It shows him then after being called back again standing near the cupboard facing away from it and baring. The video then shows the cupbaord doors being left shut whilst eddie his handler and the cameraman decide to go to another room. It then shows then coming back into the room with the cupboard, but eddie does not alert again. We then see Grimes go straight to the cupboard and opens one of the three doors (the cupboard is in three sections) and takes out cuddle cat. At no point do we see who put cuddle cat there, at no point do we see when cuddle cat was put there, at no point do we hear why the cupboard was not opened immediately upon eddie barking near it at no point do we see eddie alerting to cuddle cat, at no point do we see eddie alerting in front of any of the cupboard doors.

 

[brit1981]

I am not sure what you are saying, but I did get the bit about you wanting links. I provided them several times in this thread, but here you are again. here are the links for all the information you asked for, plus some about cadaverine.

http://www.hmdb.ca/metabolites/HMDB02322
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7435118
http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/ar...t-oral-malodor
http://iese.nust.edu.pk/Dr. Ali .../Paper 2.pdf
http://kops.ub.uni-konstanz.de/bitst...pdf?sequence=1

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/15959107
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/eur...ey/7723860.stm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1JuPiWWaT

 

[saggymoon]

I actually answered the question several times. In fact it is saggy who has not answered my questions.
She said the idea that cadaverine only lasted for thirty days after removal of a corpse has been proven to be a lie. As this was a fairly common belief in scientific circles I asked her about the study that disproved it, and aske dif she would be able to give me the article title, or even just the first author or journal name. Saggy has not provided them.

I also asked if this was the only lie she felt had been proven, or if there were more statements they had been made that had been proven to have been lies. Saggy did not answer.
I have answered saggy several times i.e provided the links, but she has not once answered these questions of mine.

you poor pet i had u on ignore for days so so forgive me lol

it is a FACT that cadaver scent lasts for more than a month cheers

google or read
http://www.csst.org/residual_scent.html

residual scent in buildings

DESPITE studies you have been told before cadaver dogs have alerted in places where an alledgedly missing person was last seen and subsequently found DEAD elsewhere

 

[brit1981]

Can you provide the link to the study that found it, or even just give me the article, first author or journal's name.

Also you never did answer my question about whether this was the only "lie" proven. I take it then it was the only lie you felt had been proven.

Also I do not know if you realise this, but it comes across as very rude when you say "you have been told", it portrays an idea that you belive so long as you say something you have proven it and people have no right to say differently, even though you do not lin to anythign reliable such as scientific studies or good news reports. I could write the world is flat, and then why you disagreed say "you have been told the world is flat", it does not make it true and it would just make me look rude.
cadaver dogs have also alerted to places where the missing person has turned up alive and well (shannon mathews), and considering the police do not bring in cadaver dogs until they are fairly certain the missing person has met with foul play, the odds are on the dogs side that the person will eventually turn up dead somewhere. there are very few cases where people disappear in suspicious circumstances and turn up alive and well.

 

[SmoothOperator]

The dog most certainly did alert to these and was captured on video doing so, said video readily available on the net. If you have problems finding it give me a shout.

Iam at a loss to understand why you are refuting the most basic facts in this case.

As to the rest of your points, they are all flawed, I will come back later to rebut when I get use of my laptop.

Above BBM. .I believe brit has tirelessly, yet methodically stated the reason he/she refutes the factoids of which you speak and while it is your opinion they are "flawed", however that opinion doesn't at all make it a fact that his/her statements are flawed/incorrect.. its obvious there are strong points of disagreement laced throughout this case and the fact remains that Maddy and/or Maddy's remains continue to be unrecovered ..therefore in moo,of course some will have to agree to disagree about their opinions on those points of this case.. but the fact does remain that brit's refutal is not incorrect. .one's opinion may be that, but that doesn't at all make it fact..jmo.

 

[brit1981]

the link to the study is there in my last post it PROVES what mate mccann says is a lie, scent remains for months and months and months read it, cheers

Apart from the fact this is over a decade old, it is not a proper scientific study. It was carried out by the dog handlers themselves. It was not even blinded. the common belief in scientific studies is that it only lasts for about thirty days after a corpse has been removed, I have not read any recent studies that contradict this, yet you claimed you had, but could only link to a poor study from the ninties. Cadaverine is also present in many different things and it is impossible for a dog to tell the source of the cadaverine, hence they are trying to find new methods.

 

[rashomon]

Cadaverine is also present in many different things and it is impossible for a dog to tell the source of the cadaverine, hence they are trying to find new methods.

But this does not explain the presence of human DNA in the crucial locations where both the cadaver dog and the blood dog alerted: behind the sofa and in the boot of the car.

In the recent tragic case of 17-month old Ziya Turner, who had been reported missing on Friday/June 29, the child was found dead on Saturday morning June 30, in a closet inside the family's home. A cadaver dog discovered the body:

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/18921687/17-month-old-ziya-turner-found-dead

The baby was reported missing from a home in the 18-thousand block of Brinker around 3:30pm Friday on Detroit's east side. Police confirm Ziya was discovered Saturday morning in a closet inside the family's home. A cadaver dog led officers to the little girl's body. Her grandmother tells Fox 2 the family is doing everything they can to keep it together in the wake of this tragedy.

So far, no one has been charged in this case. The Medical Examiner has not yet released the cause of death.

The police had searched the area and also broken down the door to another home to make sure Ziya was not inside:

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...ody/-/4714498/15356504/-/am5svgz/-/index.html

Detroit police, with K9s, searched the area near 7 Mile Road and Conant Street. Officers went house to house and broke down the door to a nearby home to make sure Zyia was not inside.

But what the police obviously had not done do was to conduct a thorough search of the Turner home right on the spot.

The question I have in context with the McCann case:

Does anyone have info on whether the police searched the McCanns' apartment on the very night of May 3rd after Kate reported Madeleine missing?
If yes, how thoroughly and how systematically was the serch conducted?

It is true that there was a lot of commotion and coming and going in the apartment, but this does not necessarily imply that a thorough police search was made on that very night.
If for example, the parents told the police that they had already looked everywhere in the apt, they would probably have believed them and therefore not have found in necessay to check whether they had told the truth.

 

[brit1981]

But this does not explain the presence of human DNA in the crucial locations where both the cadaver dog and the blood dog alerted: behind the sofa and in the boot of the car.

In the recent tragic case of 17-month old Ziya Turner, who had been reported missing on Friday/June 29, the child was found dead on Saturday morning June 30, in a closet inside the family's home. A cadaver dog discovered the body:
The police had searched the area and also broken down the door to another home to make sure Ziya was not inside:

But what the police obviously had not done do was to conduct a thorough search of the Turner home right on the spot.

The question I have in context with the McCann case:

Does anyone have info on whether the police searched the McCanns' apartment on the very night of May 3rd after Kate reported Madeleine missing?
If yes, how thoroughly and how systematically was the serch conducted?

It is true that there was a lot of commotion and coming and going in the apartment, but this does not necessarily imply that a thorough police search was made on that very night.
If for example, the parents told the police that they had already looked everywhere in the apt, they would probably have believed them and therefore not have found in necessay to check whether they had told the truth.

Any material that was human and contained cadaverine would also contain DNA. The cadaver dog Eddie, also according to Grimes was trained to alert to blood as well. As for the blood in the flat, I believe this was tested by the FSS and they found it not to belong to anyone in the McCann family. The flat had been let to lots of people before and after the Mccanns, so it is perfectly feasible that at one point someone cut themselves.
There was no material identified as being blood in the car. There was DNA found, but it was not identified as belonging to anyone. And given it was a hire car, why would it not have DNA in.
I also thought Keela, the blood dog, only alerted to blood from a living person I will have to double check that, but if that is true and the McCanns hired the car after madeleine disappeared then even if it was blood found and the dog was correct in thinking it was from a living person, then it could not have anything to do with madeleine's disappearence
As for the police searching the flat, I believe the police said they searched . the flat first. It was not a big flat, so would not have taken long. Also the McCanns friends said they all searched the flat - I did read somewhere that when Kate alerted everyone that madeleine was gone, Gerry was like "don't be silly of course she's there" and then they all checked again.

I was once in a friends house when suddenly her little girl disappeared ( she was found an hour or so later hiding), and when we looked everywhere three times we called the police. The first thing the police did was look in her room, then close it off, and then search the house, and the area. This was not in Portugal though, but there was no assumption we had looked correctly (in fairness to us, she had been changing hiding places as we looked).

 

[rpgman]

Oh..

Here we go again with the dog hits were unreliable.

I wish our dog expert here on Websluths would drop by.

 

[brit1981]

Oh..

Here we go again with the dog hits were unreliable.

I wish our dog expert here on Websluths would drop by.

Shannon mathews is alive and well despite cadaver dogs alerting in her home.

Eddie did alert to coconut shell.

There is a reason why cadaver dogs are not used as evidence. But look at the links and you can see why the dogs barking means nothing (especially as they ignore it for the first few times, and never actually alert to cuddle cat).

 

[K9Snoop]

And if you actually read the papers published about decomposition then you would understand the general consensous among scientists is that the chemicals from decomposition do only last for thirty days after the removal of the body. They also only appear once a body has began to decompose. Considering that it takes the different organs of the body up to ninety minutes to die, decomposition would not start until after the last organ had died so a body would have to have been there in the one spot for over ninty minutes for any scent to appear.

Actually the statement on chemicals is highly inaccurate. Chemicals can and do undergo decompositional changes which is why cadaver dog handlers are told to work the entire spectrum of death with varying amounts of material. Some VOCs degrade into more stable forms or undergo a shift. To focus on only one phase can lead to inaccurate alerts (or no alerts at all)Decomp can starts once cellular death begins which starts once the cell is not getting the oxygen or nutrients it needs to survive. And the odor can last much longer than 30 days. You can google it but Hamburg Germany did a study where a body was wrapped in a sheet or blanket and then placed on new carpet squares with one set at 2 minutes and another for 10 minutes. The dogs were still alerting with an 80-90% accuracy at 35 days and at 65 days.

I've had my dog alert on cadaver odor and then told a person had died at that location in the home. When I asked how long the body had been there I was told "not long" because they had callled the ambulance to come and get them (average medic response time <10 minutes) This event occured 3 years prior to my working the scene.

 

[badhorsie]

Eddie and Keela have been used effectively in many UK cases.

Mr Grimes is still working with dogs
Mr Grime is now a director of a forensic science company, GSS International, and is employed as a sniffer dog expert. He owns both his former police dogs and they continue to work with him.
Yesterday he was in the U.S. on business and a spokesman for the Hampshire-based company said he had been asked by police in the UK not to comment on the McCann case.