the cadaver dog

Status
Not open for further replies.
What's more important is WHERE it was located...places it had no right to be, for example, in a boot locker of a car hired AFTER Madeline went missing, and behind a sofa in apartment 5A.

The sniffer dogs ALERTED FOR CADAVER IN THE SAME PLACES.

Alone, neither are proof of anything. Together, they build a compelling picture of what really happened that day.

Exactly. That's what circumstantial evidence does. Separately and apart, these grains mean little. But pile them together and you get a meal.

However, before folks get their dander up, it's not the dogs making these statements. The dogs are just giving alerts on what they have been trained to find. The dogs are not indicating guilt or innocence. They are only indicating on the presence of odor. It's the humans that are making these statements.
 
I agree, but it provokes anger in me, not anxiety.

Every time I read a vehement "pro" posting I just shake my head. This is an example of what lots of money, good lawyers, expensive PR, and an unshakeable liar or two can do to muddy and interfere with what SHOULD be a focused search for a little girl.

Instead we have media manipulation, blatant child neglect (at the very least), book tours, and law suits against anyone and everyone who wishes to question the central players...much like the Ramseys, a decade earlier.

It seems that everyone has forgotten the little lost girls in the middle of this mess...except US, the caring public.

We need to just keep pressuring our governments in the hope that someone somewhere will have the balls to step up for these babies, and compel those who are hiding behind their fancy lawyers to co-operate in a complete and thorough investigation.

We call them "inquests" here. The courts order a hearing which compels everyone involved to give evidence, in one place, at the same time. Doesn't sound like much more than beauracracy, but this is exactly what solved the Daniel Morcombe case down here in Australia. Once everyone was being forced to speak, on record, at the same time in the same venue, discrepancies became clear which resulted in an arrest.

We must not give up, for Madeleine.:maddening:
We see it in a lot of cases here though. For some it is so unimaginable that a parent could harm their child no amount of evidence - and sometimes not even a conviction - will ever sway them from their belief. We often see the same in uxoricides. Despite their convictions there are those who still earnestly protest the innocence of Darlie Routier, Diane Downs, Scott Peterson, Gabe Watson, Jason Young, et al.

If only life were so simple that loving someone precluded one from hurting them. JMO
 
We see it in a lot of cases here though. For some it is so unimaginable that a parent could harm their child no amount of evidence - and sometimes not even a conviction - will ever sway them from their belief. We often see the same in uxoricides. Despite their convictions there are those who still earnestly protest the innocence of Darlie Routier, Diane Downs, Scott Peterson, Gabe Watson, Jason Young, et al.

If only life were so simple that loving someone precluded one from hurting them. JMO

I know, it's so frustrating.

What's worse, is the same parent-supporters ALSO believe there is a monster on every corner and stir up a lot of fear, when the culprit is usually much closer to home.
 
Further, there were questions asked about FSS Ltd, which although a British firm, carries NO official licence to test DNA, nor do they adhere to any recognised standards in testing. There are also questions as to the ownership of FSS Ltd and their connection to 3i, a company with links to the McCann Corporation.

I am sorry but I have to pick you up on this statement In 2007 the FSS was the goverment body for forensic science - it was owned by the state and was the body that all gioverment agencies worked with. It solved many cold cases - Antoni Imiela (the M25 rapist) and Ronald Castree (for the murder of Lesley Molseed in 1975 )

To say that it didnt have a licence to practise is just plain wrong The organisation pioneered the use of large scale DNA profiling for forensic identification and crime detection. It also set up the world's first DNA database, launched on 10 April 1995.It was highly respected throughout the world. Sure it had some problems as LCN profiling is fraught with problems and is not an exact science

The goverement closed it down in 2010 mainly because our country is broke and it was cost cutting ( a lot of state owned industries end up costing tax payers money )

All the work has been moved to the prvate sector. 3i is an independent investemebt company - a multi million pound organisation with shareholders around the world. what it has to do with the " Mccann Corporation as you call it " is simply beyond me .








 
The Forensic Science Service was criticised regarding failures in the Damilola Taylor case which led to an independent review

There were issues with failing to detect blood in numerous criminal cases which are detailed at the above link.

Also I have a vague recollection of hair etc in the McCann case being lost/destroyed but I might well be wrong
 
thanks for that link - In the conclusion section the report stated that theer was no sysematic failure in the FSS but specific human failure in certain procedures

No big organisation is free from error - I was just pointing out that the FSS was a highly respected body and did have full authority to to compex DNA analysis - and to argue otherwise is wrong imo

i have copied the exact piece for accuracy

OUR CONCLUSIONS
4. We have restricted our review to the fi nding of blood and other body fl uids. We have not considered
DNA profi ling. Our conclusions (which are without hesitation or qualifi cation), based upon
documentary evidence and oral testimony, are that there was no systemic failure in the operations of the
FSS; there were however human failures in implementing the operating procedures of the FSS which
brought about the failure to recover crucial evidence; that evidence was Damilola’s blood on the right
trainer (APR 60) said to belong to Danny Preddie and Damilola’s blood on a black “Giorgio” sweatshirt
(APR 34) said to belong to Rickie Preddie.
5. Th e human failures which we fi nd took place varied in seriousness and we will make the appropriate
distinctions in due course. It is appropriate however to note that no scientist however experienced
or skilled can ever be guaranteed to fi nd the evidence sought. Searching with the naked eye, with
appropriate lighting, with microscopic aids and with the application of chemicals yields the right results
in nearly all cases. But sometimes, due to human fallibility, there is failure. We do not believe that the
failure rate is high; the FSS on the evidence will tolerate no acceptable failure rate and nor will any of
the other Forensic Providers.
 
As for eela, on her first visit to the flat she did not alert, on the second visit she did alert. Therefore she made a mistake on one of these visits. When the area she alerted to was tested, nothing was found

I do believe you have your *facts* wrong here, on both points. On her first visit to the flat after Eddie alerted, this was 30 or 31st July 2007, she alerted at the back of the sofa, just as Eddie did. Materials were taken from there, analysed and some components of the DNA of the blood found (because Keela alerts to nothing but blood) matched Madeleine's.

Keela was taken back to the flat a few days later and again alerted to the base of a curtain. Hope that helps.
Do shout if you want links to the official police files. it would be helpful for all reading here that you back up your statements of fact with links to the police files, otherwise when you are found to be stating incorrect things willy nilly no one will take what you say in any kind of faith

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm#mg2462
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm


and video proof
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id167.html
 
There is only one definitive trace of madeleine's DNA and it was found on a tile in the apartment along with other foreign DNA taken on the same swab Not only that, but the source of this solitary DNA sample could not be identified as being blood or saliva or skin cell - just that it was Madeleine's DNA

Also , but there was no evidence of her DNA in the car, Or behind the sofa and that the dog alert areas could not be identified as blood let alone Madeleine's blood

These are the facts that came out of the forensics reports that have been reported ad nauseam throughout the acres of reporting on this case.

Amaral was taken off the case because he messed up . The whole investigation was flawed. All his energy went on to trying to prove the Mcaanns guilt instead of actualy doing his job as an investigator.

It is 5 years now - the PJ have closed the case and wont reopen it The UK police are happy to do more investigation but need to have cooperation from the PJ .

Kate Mccaan is now an ambassador for missing children and is doing great woork in pushing new alert systems for missing children. Her daughter is still missing
 
I do believe you have your *facts* wrong here, on both points. On her first visit to the flat after Eddie alerted, this was 30 or 31st July 2007, she alerted at the back of the sofa, just as Eddie did. Materials were taken from there, analysed and some components of the DNA of the blood found (because Keela alerts to nothing but blood) matched Madeleine's.

Keela was taken back to the flat a few days later and again alerted to the base of a curtain. Hope that helps.
Do shout if you want links to the official police files. it would be helpful for all reading here that you back up your statements of fact with links to the police files, otherwise when you are found to be stating incorrect things willy nilly no one will take what you say in any kind of faith

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm#mg2462
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm


and video proof
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id167.html

The FSS said the components also matched to Gerry McCann. There is no way anyone can say it came from madeleine of geryy unless they were actually there. If anyone has knowledge that it belongs to madeleine then they should go to the police.

Can I also remind you that you can find facts outside of the internet. Try reading genes V for instance if you wish to understand DNA. It is a basic book, found in most libaries, and all academic libaries (even if you are no longer in uni, your alumni card should allow you acccess to reference material).
As for the dogs, first they are not infallible and can mae mistakes. Secondly eddie alerts to bodily fluids as well as cadavers, so if he alerts to something it doe snot mean a cadaver was there it means there is a bodily fluid there, and that bodily fluid does not have to come from a dead person.
 
Further, there were questions asked about FSS Ltd, which although a British firm, carries NO official licence to test DNA, nor do they adhere to any recognised standards in testing. There are also questions as to the ownership of FSS Ltd and their connection to 3i, a company with links to the McCann Corporation.

I am sorry but I have to pick you up on this statement In 2007 the FSS was the goverment body for forensic science - it was owned by the state and was the body that all gioverment agencies worked with. It solved many cold cases - Antoni Imiela (the M25 rapist) and Ronald Castree (for the murder of Lesley Molseed in 1975 )

To say that it didnt have a licence to practise is just plain wrong The organisation pioneered the use of large scale DNA profiling for forensic identification and crime detection. It also set up the world's first DNA database, launched on 10 April 1995.It was highly respected throughout the world. Sure it had some problems as LCN profiling is fraught with problems and is not an exact science

The goverement closed it down in 2010 mainly because our country is broke and it was cost cutting ( a lot of state owned industries end up costing tax payers money )

All the work has been moved to the prvate sector. 3i is an independent investemebt company - a multi million pound organisation with shareholders around the world. what it has to do with the " Mccann Corporation as you call it " is simply beyond me .









I agree.
I find it shocking how many out and out lies are being told by the anti-mccanns. It makes me wonder if they are getting their information from Tony Bennett and Debbie Butler type sites as they have put about a lot of misinformation (and that is a generous way of putting it) for reasons best known to themselves.
The FSS was a government owned agency which at the time worked on nearly all UK cases. Saying it did not have a license is 100% incorrect. Trying to make it out as some random private company with links to the mccanns (what exactly is the mccann corperation) is 100% incorrect.

But we have also seen people claiming the flat was 120 metres away, which is 100% incorrect, it was just over 50m as the crow flies, and just over 75 to walk).

As for the DNA, we have seen people claiming things that are just 100% incorrect (after this was pointed out I have noticed people claiming the FSS are some shady company with no liencse to practice, which as we have said it a complete falsehood).

If people are so sure it is the mccanns, why do they have to make things up to prove their point.

here are some facts:

1) No-one noticed anything amiss with Madeleine during her holiday, no bruises, no yellowing associated with long term calpol use, no subdued behaviour. Photos taken on the day she went missing back this up.

2) madeleine was seen alive and well at six, and six thirty by people other than the mccanns.

3) between eight thirty and ten the mccanns are only unaccounted for for five minutes each. No-one notices anything amiss.

4) The mccanns did not know the area well, witness state they spent most of their time at the resort. They did not have a car, nor did they have access to a spade or tools for digging.

5) No-one, including the police, reports smelling vomit or cleaning products in the mccann flat on the night madeleine disappeared.

6) Sniffer dogs follow madeleine's scent out of the flat, and down the road.

7) several wees later Eddie, a dog trained to alert to both cadaver's and bodily fluids, and keela a dog trained to alert to blood search the flat. The hadnler states these dogs are not infallible, and they are not evidence. They make alerts, and bodily fluids are discovered

8) The dog, after being called back several times, alerts to the mccanns car. Bodily fluid is found.

9) The FSS, a government owned agency, which carried out nearly all forensic work for UK criminal investigations, and maintained the UK's criminal's dna database, analysed the material found. The only bodily fluids they could identify in the car, were nails belonging to Kate and gerry. They found the key fobb had one profile on it which contained components matching gerry. They found cellular material in the car boot which could not be indentified as a specific bodily fluid. They said this material came from three to five people, conatained 37 components, 15 of which were found in madeleine's DNA (she had 19 different components), but stated those 15 could not be determined to come from one individuel and were found in a large number of people. they also stated that these 15 components would be found in her relatives, and 100% of madeleine's components would be found in her parents.
The also looked at the flat, and found only one piece of material could be madeleine's, but this material could also be gerry's. they found material that did not belong to the mccanns, and material that was too small to be indentified.

10) jane Tanner claimed she saw a man carrying a child wearing pink pyjamas walking away from the flat at approx 21;15. at approx 22:00, the smith family walking back from a bar saw a man matching jane tanner's description walkiing with a similar child. they said it was too dark to get a good look at the man. Later Mr Smith said the turn of the head reminded him of Gerry mccann, but the other adults do not say this. he also says he cannot identify the man facially as he did not have his glasses and it was dark. For clarification, several people, including Mark Warner staff state Gerry was on the resort at this time.

11) Three people, the mccanns, and murat are made aguidos (Murat first), but this is later dropped, and the police say there is no evidence against them.

12) despite judicial secrecy, information is illeaglly leaked to papers, and some papers print false stories. The Mccanns and Murat later win apologies and compensation as do the mccanns friends (the mccanns and their friends have their comepensation in the form of donations to the find madeleine fund). Sadly many of these false stories continue to be put about as fact by a minority of people on the internet, such as the madeleine foundation, and the madeleine mccann research group. These same people also go onto various forums, and twitter accounts to keep these myths going. Tony bennett is facing another court case for this behaviour.

13) Amaral is removed from the case. he also receives a criminal conviction for falsifying evidence in another case.

14) A minority of people claim the fact that the find madeleine fund is a private company rather than a charity is suspicious. In fact under the charity act 2006, and in line with the charity commissions rules, it would be illegal for the find madeleine fund to be a charity. In England and wales charities must have a public benefit and cannot just be about finding one specific child. Therefore the find madeleine fund is a not for profit company run by a board, and therefore with its accounts publicly available just like any charity, and not for profit company.
 
I really do not get how people are saying "there were questions raised about the ownership of FSS ltd", when it was owned by the government.
 
I agree.
I find it shocking how many out and out lies are being told by the anti-mccanns. It makes me wonder if they are getting their information from Tony Bennett and Debbie Butler type sites as they have put about a lot of misinformation (and that is a generous way of putting it) for reasons best known to themselves.
The FSS was a government owned agency which at the time worked on nearly all UK cases. Saying it did not have a license is 100% incorrect. Trying to make it out as some random private company with links to the mccanns (what exactly is the mccann corperation) is 100% incorrect.

But we have also seen people claiming the flat was 120 metres away, which is 100% incorrect, it was just over 50m as the crow flies, and just over 75 to walk).

As for the DNA, we have seen people claiming things that are just 100% incorrect (after this was pointed out I have noticed people claiming the FSS are some shady company with no liencse to practice, which as we have said it a complete falsehood).

If people are so sure it is the mccanns, why do they have to make things up to prove their point.

here are some facts:

1) No-one noticed anything amiss with Madeleine during her holiday, no bruises, no yellowing associated with long term calpol use, no subdued behaviour. Photos taken on the day she went missing back this up.

2) madeleine was seen alive and well at six, and six thirty by people other than the mccanns.

3) between eight thirty and ten the mccanns are only unaccounted for for five minutes each. No-one notices anything amiss.

4) The mccanns did not know the area well, witness state they spent most of their time at the resort. They did not have a car, nor did they have access to a spade or tools for digging.

5) No-one, including the police, reports smelling vomit or cleaning products in the mccann flat on the night madeleine disappeared.

6) Sniffer dogs follow madeleine's scent out of the flat, and down the road.

7) several wees later Eddie, a dog trained to alert to both cadaver's and bodily fluids, and keela a dog trained to alert to blood search the flat. The hadnler states these dogs are not infallible, and they are not evidence. They make alerts, and bodily fluids are discovered

8) The dog, after being called back several times, alerts to the mccanns car. Bodily fluid is found.

9) The FSS, a government owned agency, which carried out nearly all forensic work for UK criminal investigations, and maintained the UK's criminal's dna database, analysed the material found. The only bodily fluids they could identify in the car, were nails belonging to Kate and gerry. They found the key fobb had one profile on it which contained components matching gerry. They found cellular material in the car boot which could not be indentified as a specific bodily fluid. They said this material came from three to five people, conatained 37 components, 15 of which were found in madeleine's DNA (she had 19 different components), but stated those 15 could not be determined to come from one individuel and were found in a large number of people. they also stated that these 15 components would be found in her relatives, and 100% of madeleine's components would be found in her parents.
The also looked at the flat, and found only one piece of material could be madeleine's, but this material could also be gerry's. they found material that did not belong to the mccanns, and material that was too small to be indentified.

10) jane Tanner claimed she saw a man carrying a child wearing pink pyjamas walking away from the flat at approx 21;15. at approx 22:00, the smith family walking back from a bar saw a man matching jane tanner's description walkiing with a similar child. they said it was too dark to get a good look at the man. Later Mr Smith said the turn of the head reminded him of Gerry mccann, but the other adults do not say this. he also says he cannot identify the man facially as he did not have his glasses and it was dark. For clarification, several people, including Mark Warner staff state Gerry was on the resort at this time.

11) Three people, the mccanns, and murat are made aguidos (Murat first), but this is later dropped, and the police say there is no evidence against them.

12) despite judicial secrecy, information is illeaglly leaked to papers, and some papers print false stories. The Mccanns and Murat later win apologies and compensation as do the mccanns friends (the mccanns and their friends have their comepensation in the form of donations to the find madeleine fund). Sadly many of these false stories continue to be put about as fact by a minority of people on the internet, such as the madeleine foundation, and the madeleine mccann research group. These same people also go onto various forums, and twitter accounts to keep these myths going. Tony bennett is facing another court case for this behaviour.

13) Amaral is removed from the case. he also receives a criminal conviction for falsifying evidence in another case.

14) A minority of people claim the fact that the find madeleine fund is a private company rather than a charity is suspicious. In fact under the charity act 2006, and in line with the charity commissions rules, it would be illegal for the find madeleine fund to be a charity. In England and wales charities must have a public benefit and cannot just be about finding one specific child. Therefore the find madeleine fund is a not for profit company run by a board, and therefore with its accounts publicly available just like any charity, and not for profit company.

Your postings are so full of discrepancies, random claims and fallacies that I really have to wonder if your last name is McCann.

No one can argue with such blindly adamant (and false) assertions and not end up reduced to wading through a morass of ridiculousness.

Answer me one question - when Kate McCann ran from the apartment, why did she not call her daughter's name?
 
Your postings are so full of discrepancies, random claims and fallacies that I really have to wonder if your last name is McCann.

No one can argue with such blindly adamant (and false) assertions and not end up reduced to wading through a morass of ridiculousness.

Answer me one question - when Kate McCann ran from the apartment, why did she not call her daughter's name?

I have not put up false assertions at all. My assertions are true.
Assertions that are false that have been posted here

that questions were asked about the owenership of FSS ltd and that it had no license to practice - 100% incorrect it is a government owned agency, with a license to practice.

That finding 15 components out of madeleine's 19, from a mixture of three to five people's DNA which contained 37 components is more or less positive that it belongs to madeleine - this is 100% incorrect.

that the resturant was 120 metres from the flat - 100% incorrect.

that the dog alerting meant a cadaver was there - 100% incorrect as the dogs are not infallible, and the cadaver dog also alerts to bodily fluids from living people. It means a cadaver could possibly have been there, but equally so could a bodily fluid such as nails, blood etc. And that is if the dog alerted correctly.

These are just three out and out falsehoods that people have put up for reasons known only to themselves.

And how woudl I now why for the thirty second sit took to run the 75 metres to the resturant she did not call for Madeleine. Everyone says she started shouting as soon as she was in sight. But are ypou claiming that she did not shout for those few moments meant she was involved in the disappearence.
 
that the dog alerting meant a cadaver was there - 100% incorrect as the dogs are not infallible, and the cadaver dog also alerts to bodily fluids from living people. It means a cadaver could possibly have been there, but equally so could a bodily fluid such as nails, blood etc. And that is if the dog alerted correctly.

Clarification: the dog is alerting on odor. It is the source of the odor that is in question by the humans as well as the locations the dog is finding the odor. You cannot say something is 100% incorrect until that's been proven. Just because things could be fallible does not mean they are fallible on this occasion.
 
I mean it is 100% incorrect to say that if a dog alerts it means a cadaver was there. Equally you cannot say if a cadaver dog alerts it means he was only alerting to a bodily fluid, that is also 100% incorrect.
All you can say with any certainty is that if a dog alerts it indicates a cadaver or bodily fluid was there. But some people have claimed that as the dog alerted this was evidence a cadaver was there, which is not accurate it is (assuming the dog and its handler are correct) evidence that an odour which may have come from a cadaver, or a bodily fluid was present.
 
Are you muddying the waters or do you just not get it?

As K9snoop has kindly explained in post 92 on this thread

"Eddie is trained to alert to human decomp odor (be that blood, flesh, purge fluids, etc). Keela is trained for blood and blood only. You can have one or both alert. Both of the alerts mean things separately and then together.

You can have HR odor but no external blood present. If that is the case then only Eddie will alert. Keela will not. If you have external blood then both dogs should alert. So what does the fob alert mean? It only means that 2 dogs (one trained for HRD and fluid and one dog trained for blood only) alerted on the car fob. So take that grain of rice and add it to the rest of the meal. Add it in with the other circumstantial evidence."
 
Are you muddying the waters or do you just not get it?

As K9snoop has kindly explained in post 92 on this thread

"Eddie is trained to alert to human decomp odor (be that blood, flesh, purge fluids, etc). Keela is trained for blood and blood only. You can have one or both alert. Both of the alerts mean things separately and then together.

You can have HR odor but no external blood present. If that is the case then only Eddie will alert. Keela will not. If you have external blood then both dogs should alert. So what does the fob alert mean? It only means that 2 dogs (one trained for HRD and fluid and one dog trained for blood only) alerted on the car fob. So take that grain of rice and add it to the rest of the meal. Add it in with the other circumstantial evidence."

That is very rude.
I am not muddying the waters, I am explaining the facts.

Eddie does not just alert to the scent of a dead body, he alerts to the scent from any human material that is degrading, even if that material came from a living person i.e hair, nails, skin, blood from someone who cut themselves etc.

keela like you say alerts to blood, and blood only. External blood does not have to mean visable to the human eye.

Grimes has claimed they alert to even tiny amounts, from years ago, so their alerts give do indication of how much of a material was present nor when it was present.

So if both keela, and Eddie alert, and assuming they are correct we can say there is an indication blood was present.

If only eddie alerts we can say there, assuming eddie is correct, is an indication that a bodily fluid, other than blood, or a cadaver was present at one time. We cannot say one way or another from the dog's alerts whether there was a cadaver present, or a particular bodily fluid was present. We would have to look at other evidence i.e if a body, or bodily fluid is found in the alert area.

As for the fob, both dogs alerted to this, biological material was found on it, and this material was from just one person and matched the DNA of Gerry McCann and Gerry McCann admits he used the fob to drive the car. What is that circumstantial evidence of to you?
 
I have not put up false assertions at all. My assertions are true.

What, you mean like this one?
Originally Posted by brit1981

As for eela, on her first visit to the flat she did not alert, on the second visit she did alert. Therefore she made a mistake on one of these visits. When the area she alerted to was tested, nothing was found
 
I am having trouble locating any reference to Mr Grime stating that Eddie alerts to any bodily fluids shed from a living person apart from blood. So, not sure why this is being banded about.

For argument's sake, let us say he does alert to all the possibilities that have been put on the table, e.g. Body odour, bad breath, semen, menstrual blood, urine, rotten teeth, toenails. What are the odds that Eddie alerted to one or more of these items just in the flat a person had gone missing from and nowhere else. Realistically speaking if cadaver dogs were trained to alert to all these substances they really would be not much use as they would be alerting every two minutes everywhere.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
125
Guests online
4,845
Total visitors
4,970

Forum statistics

Threads
622,927
Messages
18,458,110
Members
240,212
Latest member
KishaBarry
Back
Top