The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[ThinkHard]

Would a person who took daily sailing lessons and was becoming quite the sailor know how to tie fancy knots?

Yes and yes. Those weren't fancy knots though, they look like some type of hitch not to me, e
Other half hitches or clove hitches I think a combo though but it's a serious of hitch knots overlayed....and yes this is a knot you would learn as an intermediate sailor. It's used to tie line around a pole.

 

[andreww]

BUMP.

Exactly, Me66! Welcome to WS and the JBR forum, and thanks for so succinctly summing it up!

If you are looking solely at the evidence, it's really as simple as this.

You have to look at both sides of the story. The intruder theory makes no sense and lacks evidence/the Ramseys were deceptive and uncooperative. If the Ramseys were forthcoming and believable, Id be inclined to look a bit harder at the intruder angle, but everything about this case points directly at the Ramseys.

 

[ThinkHard]

- clove hitch

 

[reintarnation]

Because then the police are going to likely thoroughly search the entire house and when they find your dead child.. Why in the world are they going to think it's an intruder?

Quoting RL2's response to Geronimo: "Basic question: why write a ransom note if u know your daughter is dead within the house? Cant u just say to police, my daughter is missing..."

The Ramseys had a lot of luck early on in this investigation. The BPD took Patsy's word and 'bought' the RN (as I think most people would). Their initial investigative efforts were spent searching outside the home - canvassing the neighborhood, setting up a tapped phone line, making arrangements for the ransom money, interviewing PR and JR about anyone who might have a grudge against them, analyzing the RN, etc.

Let's not forget, too, that the RN and murder involved multiple motives and LE had to research each and every one (pedophile, terrorism, enemy of the family, JBR's pageant life, JR's business dealings, etc.). Even after JBR was found, it was hard to fathom that the parents could be involved in such a brutal crime, especially given their outward appearances.

So in the early stages of the investigation, the RN was only the only element of the crime that actually pointed outside the home, and boy was it a doozy!

 

[johnjay]

IMO he found her later because he wasn't getting the opportunity he needed to remove her body from the house. The police stayed there, they didn't leave him alone to do it. The smell of decomposition would have been apparent pretty shortly to anyone going down to the basement. If cadaver dogs had been brought in they would have surely reacted in that vicinity.

I'm thinking he expected the police to find the body and was annoyed that they were not competent enough to do so.

Proper burial was on their mind and in the ransom note. I don't think they were going to just toss her body.

 

[ThinkHard]

Trying to upload a half hitch photo with the garrot but my cmputers being glitchy...

 

[reintarnation]

Yeah, I don't know.....I don't know why he'd break the window to make it look like an intruder, but then go and admit he broke the window himself......it doesn't really make sense unless he knew there'd be evidence of him breaking it (i.e. his blood on it or something). But I still don't believe he broke into his own house the summer before.

Simple: If he admits that he broke the window, then he's giving the 'intruder' a concealed location where he could simply reach his hand through the broken portion, unlock the window, and quietly gain entry to the home without alerting anyone.

Madeleine, to your point about JR not bringing it up many months later: JR brought it up that very day. I can't remember if it was to Detective French or Fleet White.

 

[ThinkHard]

Pre-meditation can happen in a second.

On legal terms what would they HAVE to know to determine premeditation?

 

[Kakidoll]

Never posted about this...but if you forget your keys is this what you normally do? Break windows and get in? I thought you might call your wife, maid or relative, people had keys to that house.

Especially since so many other people had keys to your house. And i don't see him fitting thru that window... why not pick another, easier one?

 

[reintarnation]

I think the glass from when John Ramsey broke in previously had been cleaned up inside the house. I don't remember any detectives saying there was an amount of class on the floor near the suitcase underneath.

You are correct, Brendon! The only glass left were a small kernel or two. It had been thoroughly cleaned up. And it's not like the whole window was smashed - it was just a spot on the upper part of the window big enough for him to fit his hand through to unlatch the window.

 

[andreww]

He kicked it with the toe of his shoe. How much noise do you think that would make?

Why are you doubting it? It was on the housekeepers repair list, as I've already posted.

And that was probably the only thing that stopped him from telling the police an intruder did it.

Really? You have an open window in the middle of winter in the kids train room and you don't get it fixed for for four months? If you broke a window in your house, would that not be a "fix me tomorrow" find of thing?

Also, I feel that if indeed it was broken for 4 months, there would be signs of rain running down the painted wall on the inside of the house.

 

[johnjay]

Would a person who took daily sailing lessons and was becoming quite the sailor know how to tie fancy knots?

One that continues with Boy Scouts might ....

 

[passionflower]

window open slows down decomp it was cold outside.
wasn't door to the room locked from the outside of the room by some wooden old fashioned block of wood thing?
someone wrapped JBR in a WHITE blanket with some of her favorite things............BR wouldn't do that but PR would think of that.
it's a mom thing.....JMOO

 

[Tortoise]

I'm thinking he expected the police to find the body and was annoyed that they were not competent enough to do so.

Proper burial was on their mind and in the ransom note. I don't think they were going to just toss her body.

I'm more of the view that they were willing to sacrifice proper burial because they staged the ransom note, and have their own private burial, just the two of them, possibly at sea or involving a deep lake.

Her murder by garrote was staged to protect whoever initially harmed her, in case she was found. I think she was strangled before the garrote was applied - the white ring mark around her neck with no ligature present. The theory is still a work in progress for me.

 

[andreww]

And have neighbours saying they heard or saw his car leaving and returning before the time he would have been naturally awake? Who goes out on an errand at 2 or 3 am? How could he have explained that? Plus there would have been tyre tracks in the ground frost.

Beats the option of disposing of a body in the middle of the day don't you think?

 

[johnjay]

I'm not arguing with "success". I'm trying to make sense of the narrative. My bs detector is aligned to the script I'm hearing. Thats how I think. I don't care how wild it is, the story should never smell fishy to me, or else I ask questions. Sometimes I get satisfactory answers. Sometimes not. I often note when people don't reply to a question, but want to change the subject. But thats just me.

The story makes perfect sense to me. The parents did all they could to divert attention away from Burke, and they were smart enough to know that that would cause attention to be drawn to themselves. Then they lawyered up and didn't cooperate with police. What's not to understand, ever since Chief Kolar's book, my BS detector has been very quiet.

 

[ThinkHard]

BBM......I missed this!

We know JBR had a history of soiling herself, and it was apparently a family trait. It's possible her bladder muscles were weak, or that the nervous system was t sending signal properly....all reasons for a child to have frequent accidents....some kids have medical issues were the signals to wake up before urinating are disrupted or haven't developed, or the muscles themselves aren't strong enough yet. My niece at age 7 deals with this and has to go to physical therapy to strengthen her muscles.....it basically teaches her to do keggle excersizes as weird as that may sound.

My point is if either of these things were contributing factors in JBR's case, then I can see how a blow to her head could cause her to lose control of her bladder even before death

 

[johnjay]

It is very funny how the Ramsey will say that everybody had a key to that house, gardeners, contractors, maids, etc., etc., yet john can't call anybody that would have a key.

Here is another fact about the window that is odd. In all the police videos you will see that window wide open. On that morning John tells police that he looked for an entry point and found none. Police look around and that window is locked. It is not until his police interview that John reveals that when he went in the basement before cops arrived, he found the window open and he shut it without mentioning it to anybody.

Now if your daughter is missing and you're left with a ransom note, would you shut an open window?

 

[RL2]

I think they probably intended to bury her themselves... I do not think that they were just going to leave her body somewhere. But, I do wonder if they thought police would totally leave the house and give them the opportunity to remove it (possibly in a suitcase) and take her body with them on their private plane to Atlanta (like JR called his pilot once it was found) and bury her somewhere there... Lawyer up and never return. They never returned to the house after she was found anyway, and I think they planned on not speaking to the police.

 

[reintarnation]

EVERYONE! I am seeing a lot of topics on this board that have been discussed ad nauseum in prior threads.

For posters new to this JBR forum: The JBR case is unique on WS because individual threads have been created to discuss specific topics. I would encourage you not only to try and use those threads for organization, but also to browse the posts they contain that will answer many of the questions you're having.

For those who want to take a deeper dive, I also encourage you to visit A Candy Rose website for all of the case resources and evidence. Always good to source and fact check your information before posting!

This particular thread was created to discuss the CBS documentary about the case. Everyone gets off topic - myself included - but how are we going to learn about the case and discuss specific elements when you post something and the thread has already advanced two pages?

Please keep this in mind moving forward. Not calling out anyone specifically. I'm guilty too!

Many thanks!