The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[molly1255]

Never posted about this...but if you forget your keys is this what you normally do? Break windows and get in? I thought you might call your wife, maid or relative, people had keys to that house.

Or call a locksmith!

 

[Brendon]

That's not proof of an intruder. How does cord in her bed prove who used it?

Fibres were found. Not the cord itself. Because it lends to the narrative that someone with a cord came into her bedroom. The cord was never positively sourced from the house. So....

 

[chlban]

Ah, but if it makes perfect sense, then why is it that I read so many different versions from the posters here that are 100% convinced that Jonbenet died at the hands of her family.

Burke hit her on the head. John had been sexually molesting her and finally killed her to cover it up. Patsy killed her in a rage over bedwetting. Burke tied her up. John tied her up. Patsy tied her up. John wrote the letter. No, he dictated it. No, he slept through it while Patsy did it. Read the posts. There are so many versions, and thats one reason why I find it hard to make perfect sense out of it. If it makes perfect sense, it shouldn't be this muddled.

Obviously, because no one here did it, and unless John and Burke decide to tell the truth we cannot know everything. In fact even then we wouldn't because who knows if Patsy told them everything. It is true there are theories galore on most aspects of the case. However, the thing the vast majority of us believe, withought a shadow of a doubt, is RDI. The fact is, the R's made some big errors, but they did manage to stage, avoid and lie well enough to avoid prosecution.

 

[chlban]

Was the dog still at home 12/25/ or kenneled?

I don't have the source, but I seem to recall he was staying with a neighbor, and got the impression the neighbor kept him alot. As an animal rescuer that stayed with me. Irresponsible pet owners, another reason to hate them.

 

[Heymom]

Exactly. I don't think we need to know the exact details, the exact scenario and order of things that happened to come to the conclusion that JRB died at the hands of one of the people in that home. I happen to believe it was BR, especially because of the wording of the indictment by the grand jury that heard more evidence than we have seen. I'm starting to think that JRB went into BR's room after waking from a wet bed or bad dream or whatever, was going to sleep in the other bed, didn't find him there so set out to find him. She found him in the basement, where he'd taken a flashlight to go sneak a peek at the remaining Christmas presents. She said she was going to tell on him and he clocked her. She got very upset and he tried to get her to calm down and not tattle by telling her he'd fix her a snack. She had one or two bites and started to really feel the effects of her closed head wound that was slowly killing her, maybe even started to pass out or threw up before she got a chance to eat more. Things spiraled from there.

No, that skull fracture would have knocked her out immediately. Remember, part of her skull was punctured into her brain. She wouldn't have been conscious after that. Whatever happened, it took place in the basement, right near the room where she was found. There was urine in the carpet outside the door of the wine cellar room and that was where the paint tote with Patsy's paint brushes was. She never recovered consciousness after she was hit. If her scalp had been lacerated and was bleeding, we'd have had a completely different case, of course.

 

[Tortoise]

Fibres were found. Not the cord itself. Because it lends to the narrative that someone with a cord came into her bedroom. The cord was never positively sourced from the house. So....

So.. you still haven't said how that is proof of an intruder.

How do you positively source cord from a house? Surely you're not going to say the Ramseys denied buying it. Suspects don't usually admit their guilt.

 

[Heymom]

I don't have the source, but I seem to recall he was staying with a neighbor, and got the impression the neighbor kept him alot. As an animal rescuer that stayed with me. Irresponsible pet owners, another reason to hate them.

It was the Barnhills who kept little Jacques. Bichon frises are timid little dogs who sometimes piddle when excited, so that could have been one problem that got the dog sent away. That house must have been in chaos a lot of the time, judging by the condition it was usually in. How they thought they'd have the time and energy to take proper care of a dog, I have no idea.

There has been nothing stated about Burke doing anything to the dog, but it's a possibility with a case like this. If so, it is tragic how the dog was protected by removing him from the house, but JonBenet was left vulnerable.

 

[vulture]

My guess about what happened? From the limited information:

Someone they know. Someone who secretly had a strong dislike for John and Patsy personally.
The ransom note. It's dripping with barely concealed contempt for the both of them.

Someone who might have had got hold of a key. Someone who knew the house.
Explains how they they got about, and got out. And how they were aware they were safe to write the ransom note.


(I edited some of the original post for brevity)

Brendon’s theory is close to what I think. I worked in a wealthy person’s home part time for two years doing filing, cleaning, gardening, errands and other tasks like that. I know details about his finances and his personal life that he would not want anyone else to know. I’m trustworthy so no one is ever going to know. I could have easily made copies of keys but I didn’t. It’s amazing what you can learn about someone just by overhearing phone conversations. It’s easy for me to believe that someone who came in to do work in the house either did this or enabled someone they knew to do it or let some information slip that led to someone they knew to do it. That is how the Clutter family got killed. I’ve house-sat for an even wealthier family in a house that was so big in a day and half I still had trouble finding my way around and I didn’t even see all of the rooms. I had to chase the dog around so I went in a lot of them but I got lost a lot! It had a spa, wine cellar, pool house, workout room, two libraries (in addition to entrance hallway, formal living room and huge family room), apartment over the pool house for the gardener, maids stairs, butler’s pantry, dumb-waiter, a garden big enough to need a gardener, maids rooms in a wing of the main house, two laundry rooms (one upstairs, one downstairs) all kinds of stuff like that. The house was not that tidy - there was dog mess in the bar area next to the wine cellar. Several rooms and closets were used as storage for a big jumbled up mass of stuff. The wine cellar had been flooded recently and was not all cleaned up yet. They were not in the habit of locking the back door or the garage. They instructed me not to lock those doors when I went out of the house, to only lock the front. This couple has two kids. Thank God no crime that I know of ever occurred in that house but if one ever did I think it wouldn’t be that hard for someone to get away with it - lots of ways to get in and a weird crime scene with all the mess around. Rooms so far apart that my brother lost 10 lbs in a week when he house-sat there. If someone told me a person lived there for a week without being detected I would believe it was possible. All rich people don’t live like their home is ready to be photographed for a magazine.

I work part time in a store that serves the neighborhood where that house is located. A lot of the households we serve have long lists of people that work for the family and can charge stuff to that account. Maids, gardeners, nannies, contractors and people like that are in and out of our store all day and in and out of these peoples’ houses I assume. We sell mass quantities of keys to be given out to various workers and house sitters. These homeowners take a lot of trips and they get handfuls of keys at a time to hand out to helpers. Are the recipients all honest? Are all their friends and families honest? Do they get all these keys back later? I hope so, but I don’t know! I know quite a bit about some of my customers by just working in the store. They have personal conversations right in front of me when they run into someone they know in the store.

So while I find an IDI scenario the most plausible, I do think if anyone in the R family did do it, Burke has the best motive. If he didn’t do it I feel bad for him. But since it’s an unsolved case, my opinion is just one more in a world of opinions.

 

[TeaTime]

Here's my confusion re the indictment. First degree means intent, no? And this means it wasn't just an accident like many BDI' s believe?

Murder in the first degree would mean that they believe whoever killed her, had premeditated the crime, rather then acted out in rage? Would that be correct?

Pre-meditation can happen in a second.

Murder of a child under a certain age also qualifies for FDM. In my state it is a child under 12 years of age.

 

[Roy23]

No, that skull fracture would have knocked her out immediately. Remember, part of her skull was punctured into her brain. She wouldn't have been conscious after that. Whatever happened, it took place in the basement, right near the room where she was found. There was urine in the carpet outside the door of the wine cellar room and that was where the paint tote with Patsy's paint brushes was. She never recovered consciousness after she was hit. If her scalp had been lacerated and was bleeding, we'd have had a completely different case, of course.

Here is a little food for thought with this discussion since Spitz and the panel have thrown out their theory. I have read of the violent nature of what happened in the Train room. The autopsy suggest that Jonbenet tried fervently to get the garrotte off her neck and dug her fingernails into her skin doing that. If she were brain dead by the blow to the head like they suggest, how is that possible?

 

[Heymom]

My guess about what happened? From the limited information:

Someone they know. Someone who secretly had a strong dislike for John and Patsy personally.
The ransom note. It's dripping with barely concealed contempt for the both of them.

Someone who might have had got hold of a key. Someone who knew the house.
Explains how they they got about, and got out. And how they were aware they were safe to write the ransom note.


(I edited some of the original post for brevity)

Brendon’s theory is close to what I think. I worked in a wealthy person’s home part time for two years doing filing, cleaning, gardening, errands and other tasks like that. I know details about his finances and his personal life that he would not want anyone else to know. I’m trustworthy so no one is ever going to know. I could have easily made copies of keys but I didn’t. It’s amazing what you can learn about someone just by overhearing phone conversations. It’s easy for me to believe that someone who came in to do work in the house either did this or enabled someone they knew to do it or let some information slip that led to someone they knew to do it. That is how the Clutter family got killed. I’ve house-sat for an even wealthier family in a house that was so big in a day and half I still had trouble finding my way around and I didn’t even see all of the rooms. I had to chase the dog around so I went in a lot of them but I got lost a lot! It had a spa, wine cellar, pool house, workout room, two libraries (in addition to entrance hallway, formal living room and huge family room), apartment over the pool house for the gardener, maids stairs, butler’s pantry, dumb-waiter, a garden big enough to need a gardener, maids rooms in a wing of the main house, two laundry rooms (one upstairs, one downstairs) all kinds of stuff like that. The house was not that tidy - there was dog mess in the bar area next to the wine cellar. Several rooms and closets were used as storage for a big jumbled up mass of stuff. The wine cellar had been flooded recently and was not all cleaned up yet. They were not in the habit of locking the back door or the garage. They instructed me not to lock those doors when I went out of the house, to only lock the front. This couple has two kids. Thank God no crime that I know of ever occurred in that house but if one ever did I think it wouldn’t be that hard for someone to get away with it - lots of ways to get in and a weird crime scene with all the mess around. Rooms so far apart that my brother lost 10 lbs in a week when he house-sat there. If someone told me a person lived there for a week without being detected I would believe it was possible. All rich people don’t live like their home is ready to be photographed for a magazine.

I work part time in a store that serves the neighborhood where that house is located. A lot of the households we serve have long lists of people that work for the family and can charge stuff to that account. Maids, gardeners, nannies, contractors and people like that are in and out of our store all day and in and out of these peoples’ houses I assume. We sell mass quantities of keys to be given out to various workers and house sitters. These homeowners take a lot of trips and they get handfuls of keys at a time to hand out to helpers. Are the recipients all honest? Are all their friends and families honest? Do they get all these keys back later? I hope so, but I don’t know! I know quite a bit about some of my customers by just working in the store. They have personal conversations right in front of me when they run into someone they know in the store.

So while I find an IDI scenario the most plausible, I do think if anyone in the R family did do it, Burke has the best motive. If he didn’t do it I feel bad for him. But since it’s an unsolved case, my opinion is just one more in a world of opinions.

No other motive for JonBenet's supposed kidnapping/killing has ever been found. In fact, only the ransom letter brings up any ulterior motives - and that is just created drama. John and Patsy immediately began throwing their friends and employees under the bus, but John was a pretty nice guy and really, no one had a reason to do this. His business was not a nefarious one and not directly involved in national defense. It was just a plausible straw to grasp at, to construct a huge red herring factor in. It was a diversion from the 3 people left alive in that home on the morning of December 26th.

The Grand Jury's indictments tell the story. They saw evidence we will never see, and they indicted both John and Patsy for negligence as well as assisting in the cover-up of a 1st degree murder. Pretty plain, I'd say.

 

[Heymom]

Here is a little food for thought with this discussion since Spitz and the panel have thrown out their theory. I have read of the violent nature of what happened in the Train room. The autopsy suggest that Jonbenet tried fervently to get the garrotte off her neck and dug her fingernails into her skin doing that. If she were brain dead by the blow to the head like they suggest, how is that possible?

The scenario that Kolar goes through in his book is that JBR was choked with the collar of her shirt, causing the triangular bruise on the front of her neck. It is then that she scratched her neck, and that did not last long before she was struck. She did not resist the subsequent choking with the cord because she was unconscious from the head blow.

 

[Roy23]

No other motive for JonBenet's supposed kidnapping/killing has ever been found. In fact, only the ransom letter brings up any ulterior motives

Getting a Grand Jury indictment is nothing. Did you know that Dr. Henry Lee and some Boulder police voted unanimously for Alex Hunter not to indict the Ramsey's regardless of the Grand Jury decision?

 

[Heymom]

Getting a Grand Jury indictment is nothing. Did you know that Dr. Henry Lee and some Boulder police voted unanimously for Alex Hunter not to indict the Ramsey's regardless of the Grand Jury decision?

It is not "nothing." I do believe that Alex Hunter as well as some of the BPD realized that Burke had committed the murder yet could not be convicted and that it would do no one any good to prosecute his parents after the fact. The case is a mess from start to finish. The parents made the wrong decision that morning and many thereafter.

 

[johnjay]

Ah, but if it makes perfect sense, then why is it that I read so many different versions from the posters here that are 100% convinced that Jonbenet died at the hands of her family.

Because the family added a lot of noise to the system and it took a while for enough of it to be sorted through. Which has now happened for the majority of people. And getting a glimpse of what Burke is actually like only helped with the sorting.

Burke hit her on the head. John had been sexually molesting her and finally killed her to cover it up. Patsy killed her in a rage over bedwetting. Burke tied her up. John tied her up. Patsy tied her up. John wrote the letter. No, he dictated it. No, he slept through it while Patsy did it. Read the posts. There are so many versions, and thats one reason why I find it hard to make perfect sense out of it. If it makes perfect sense, it shouldn't be this muddled.

When there's three people in the house and they are all covering for each other it's easy to "confuse" the situation.

 

[johnjay]

No, that skull fracture would have knocked her out immediately. Remember, part of her skull was punctured into her brain. She wouldn't have been conscious after that. Whatever happened, it took place in the basement, right near the room where she was found. There was urine in the carpet outside the door of the wine cellar room and that was where the paint tote with Patsy's paint brushes was. She never recovered consciousness after she was hit. If her scalp had been lacerated and was bleeding, we'd have had a completely different case, of course.

On one of Tricia's radio programs Kolar suggested she was hit in the head upstairs and carried down to the basement for the rest. He thought Burke was physically cable of doing that, as I recall.

 

[Roy23]

The scenario that Kolar goes through in his book is that JBR was choked with the collar of her shirt, causing the triangular bruise on the front of her neck. It is then that she scratched her neck, and that did not last long before she was struck. She did not resist the subsequent choking with the cord because she was unconscious from the head blow.

Agh!!

 

[Tortoise]

Getting a Grand Jury indictment is nothing. Did you know that Dr. Henry Lee and some Boulder police voted unanimously for Alex Hunter not to indict the Ramsey's regardless of the Grand Jury decision?

Why would a doctor be voting? Just curious.

 

[Brendon]

So.. you still haven't said how that is proof of an intruder.

How do you positively source cord from a house? Surely you're not going to say the Ramseys denied buying it. Suspects don't usually admit their guilt.

It's not proof. Just like absence of evidence of an intruder is not proof that Patsy Ramsey killed her daughter.

It's circumstantial evidence that there was an intruder. But not proof, unless forensics were certain the cord did not come from the home.

 

[Tortoise]

It's not proof. Just like absence of evidence of an intruder is not proof that Patsy Ramsey killed her daughter.

It's circumstantial evidence that there was an intruder. But not proof, unless forensics were certain the cord did not come from the home.

It's not even circumstantial evidence of an intruder.

It's evidence that cord was used, is all it is.

No one can suppose that it was more likely to be cord already in the house or cord brought in by a stranger. It's of no value to either theory.