The Case, so far...

[AfterMidnight]

Ahhh, then I was mistaken about reading that small amounts of blood splatter was found on the walls.

As far as I know there was a small amount of blood spatter on the walls, but I believe it came from a different tenant of the apartment.

 

[CaliKid]

If they didn't harm her then there is still a crime & that is that they left her alone to her fate!

Oh yes, I meant apart from leaving the kids. Even if they went out all week to eat and leaving them alone, we still don't have the details of May 3. We don't know the timeline of Madeleine's death (if she died).

But looking at it from a sleepwalking angle, if it is common medical practice to tranquilize sleepwalking children to keep them in bed, and if Madeleine was either overdosed or underdosed and died because of it, IMO it was an accident, not a crime.

In that case, the McCanns turned what might have been a sad and unfortunate situation into a crime by hiding her body and lying about what happened to her.

 

[Shazza]

Oh yes, I meant apart from leaving the kids. Even if they went out all week to eat and leaving them alone, we still don't have the details of May 3. We don't know the timeline of Madeleine's death (if she died).

But looking at it from a sleepwalking angle, if it is common medical practice to tranquilize sleepwalking children to keep them in bed, and if Madeleine was either overdosed or underdosed and died because of it, IMO it was an accident, not a crime.

In that case, the McCanns turned what might have been a sad and unfortunate situation into a crime by hiding her body and lying about what happened to her.

By covering up Madelaines death if she indeed did die and it was an accident, then that tells me the parents were definitely more worried about what others would think of them, than getting help or reporting the accident, but I am saying this could be what happened not saying it did.

 

[Betsy]

I haven't posted in a while, but still following this case closely.

My opinion has always been that IF Maddie was not abducted and did die in the room that night, the McCanns' covering-up would make perfect sense.

These people are extremely image-conscious. That's certainly not a bad thing in any way. However, the way I see it, if Maddie had died in a car accident or drowned in the pool during the family vacation, the McCanns would have everyone's sympathy, and deservedly so. What a tragedy, right?

BUT...if Maddie died accidently (which I believe she did) that night, while left alone with her siblings, what kind of sympathy would the McCanns receive? Of course, people would feel bad for them, but there would always be that undercurrent of "Well, they left her alone, what did they expect?" They would never be the victims of a tragedy--there would always be the whispers that it was, after all, their fault. Their social standing within their group (which sounds like it was extremely important to them) would be diminished. They would have lost their daughter AND their reputations.

So, if they could no longer save their daughter, they could still try to save face, and hence, the abduction scheme. They are victims now. Friends and family are showering them with sympathy.

They simply did not count on a public who would not do the same.

IF they are guilty, of course.

 

[Tuba]

After the reconstruction of the May 3 events and pacing out the walk from 5A to the Murat villa only yds. away, Rebelo has decided to requestion Robert Murat. If the leaks to Portuguese media are correct and PJ has hair & DNA evidence of Madeleine's presence at the villa, he should be reinterrogated. Murat denies acquaintance with the McCanns or any of the doctors. What to believe about this arguido?

 

[Tuba]

The only attempt to fill in the hours between 6:00-10:00 that I have seen, came from discussion of the cadaver dogs. Leaks to media from PJ asserted that it would take four hrs. for the death scent to impregnate 5A and certain items and Kate McCann's clothing. The implication here would be that Madeleine died right after returning from the Kids' Club. Have you seen any other speculative timing of events?

 

[colomom]

The only attempt to fill in the hours between 6:00-10:00 that I have seen, came from discussion of the cadaver dogs. Leaks to media from PJ asserted that it would take four hrs. for the death scent to impregnate 5A and certain items and Kate McCann's clothing. The implication here would be that Madeleine died right after returning from the Kids' Club. Have you seen any other speculative timing of events?

Would you please provide a link where we can read this statement regarding 4 hours?


From this post:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1638058&postcount=56

According to Olegario de Sousa (on whether a cadaver does not have to remain at a given location for a long time in order to make the dog react)

"According to the information that I collected, that is the situation. Right after a human being stops living, as its vital functions cease, odors are set free, the body immediately enters the decomposition process, due to the various enzymes and other substances that are contained in the organism. In most cases, it takes hours or days for the body to release odor, for example, for a human being to detect. In the case of that dog, he doesn't need that amount of time, he can detect the smell in the first moments."

I have never read anything about 4 hours.

 

[colomom]

Tuba,

You ask about speculative timing of events....

Are you asking about the time between 6:00 and 10:00?

You posted this in the timeline thread:

According to the newspaper Sol, the friends' account is as follows:
6pm The McCanns collect Madeleine and their twin siblings from the creche at the Ocean Club
7.30 The three children are put to bed
8.30 Kate and Gerry McCann arrive at the tapas restaurant
8.45 Family friends Russell O'Brien, a doctor from Exeter, and Matthew and Rachael Oldfield, a doctor and recruitment consultant from London, arrive
8.55 David and Fiona Payne, both doctors from Leicester, arrive
9.00 Gerry McCann goes to check on his children
9.05 Mr McCann is returning to the table when he runs into Jeremy Wilkins, an English TV producer whom he befriended on the tennis courts, and the pair chat in the street just outside the McCann's apartment
9.10 Jane Tanner, Mr O'Brien's partner, is coming late to the dinner, one of their children having been sick, when she sees a man walking away from the McCann's apartment with a child over his shoulder. She tells police that she passed directly alongside Mr McCann and Mr Wilkins; the latter tells police he saw neither her nor the mysterious man
9.25 Gerry McCann returns to the restaurant. Mr Oldfield leaves to check on his own children
9.30 Mr Oldfield goes to the McCann's apartment; he doesn't raise any suspicions at the time but later says that he noticed there was more light in the apartment. Russell O'Brien leaves at the same time, to discover that his daughter is vomiting
9.35 Mr Oldfield returns to the table
9.55 Mr O'Brien returns
10.00 Kate McCann goes to the apartment and discovers that her daughter has gone. She returns to the restaurant and raises the alarm.

There are other scenarios in the theories thread.

Is that what you were asking for?

 

[Tuba]

Oh. I realise I submitted that timeline which I liked because it was concise & seemed to agree w. most acc'ts. In my question at #246 here, I didn't make clear that I was talking about a timing for the crime, not a timeline for innocent actions.

 

[Tuba]

As to the development of death scent from a corpse, the Cambridge Study and this year's training study found that the longer the corpse lay, the more accurate the detection by the cadaver dog, ideally 3.5-4 hours but the PJ initially wanted information on the hours when Kate was alone with Madeleine because their suspicion & theory was that Kate committed the crime and that Madeleine was dead in the apartment long before 10 p.m. I think it was the dog that first gave them that notion. As the mos. went on, there was argument that detection could occur much sooner. I did not see items where the PJ shortened the time, only others commenting on the case and perhaps the dog handlers might have advanced they could get results from a fresher body. De Sousa's statement that the dogs can tell corpse scent in a few moments is news to me. Good for them if they can do that. The death could have occurred after 9:05 if so.

 

[txsvicki]

As to the development of death scent from a corpse, the Cambridge Study and this year's training study found that the longer the corpse lay, the more accurate the detection by the cadaver dog, ideally 3.5-4 hours but the PJ initially wanted information on the hours when Kate was alone with Madeleine because their suspicion & theory was that Kate committed the crime and that Madeleine was dead in the apartment long before 10 p.m. I think it was the dog that first gave them that notion. As the mos. went on, there was argument that detection could occur much sooner. I did not see items where the PJ shortened the time, only others commenting on the case and perhaps the dog handlers might have advanced they could get results from a fresher body. De Sousa's statement that the dogs can tell corpse scent in a few moments is news to me. Good for them if they can do that. The death could have occurred after 9:05 if so.

Do you know if the dogs were dual trained to detect cadaver and the scent of a missing person at the same time? I've been trying to find out since the first mention of search dogs.

 

[Trino]

I'm fairly certain that dogs have specific training. They're either cadaver or missing persons but not both, although it's possible for a m.p. dog to find a cadaver.

Here's a web site that might help.
http://www.highlandcanine.com/searchandrescue.htm

 

[Tuba]

The Public Prosecutor (PJ) directs that the McCanns not be reinterviewed due to a lack of evidence of their involvement. If new evidence surfaces, that position will change I'm sure. No order regarding the Tapas 7 was published, so their interrogation may still occur in England with attendant police from Portugal. The results must be back from FSS Birmingham. My opinion is that the DNA fell without the accusation of contamination by the PJ. Even though the Renault was badly handled, it does not seem to me that evidence at the v. rear of the vehicle would have been compromised. But if police went into that space and moved material without protection, they could have contaminated it.

 

[SleuthMom]

I think no matter the DNA evidence, a body is needed if something seriously can be done about the guilty parts being brought to justice and I do not see the police finding one, it literally breaks my heart.

 

[Prickle]

I think no matter the DNA evidence, a body is needed if something seriously can be done about the guilty parts being brought to justice and I do not see the police finding one, it literally breaks my heart.

Me too Sleuth mom...I have , like everyone else here on the boards followed this case closely. It breaks my heart to think that this little, sweet baby is out there, God knows where. Here we are, 6 months down the line and no-one is any wiser than they were the week Maddie went missing.

Each day the papers are full of theories, photo's of G&K , news of interviews from relations and friends.We hear of new leads that amount to nothing and not one shred of useful evidence is to be found anywhere. It's as if Maddie never existed, she's just vanished into thin air. Surely, someone knows something.

Please God, bring this little girl home.

 

[CaliKid]

Unfortunately, the Algarve area has a lot of three things- numerous caves, desolate scrub and lonely coastline. All three would make it very easy to hide Madeleine's body where she might never be found.

 

[Texana]

Do you know if the dogs were dual trained to detect cadaver and the scent of a missing person at the same time? I've been trying to find out since the first mention of search dogs.

I believe the dogs are specially trained in an either/or way. That is why the dogs are specifically referred to as "cadaver" dogs.

 

[Tuba]

The Public Prosecutor (PJ) directs that the McCanns not be reinterviewed due to a lack of evidence of their involvement. If new evidence surfaces, that position will change I'm sure. No order regarding the Tapas 7 was published, so their interrogation may still occur in England with attendant police from Portugal. The results must be back from FSS Birmingham. My opinion is that the DNA fell without the accusation of contamination by the PJ. Even though the Renault was badly handled, it does not seem to me that evidence at the v. rear of the vehicle would have been compromised. But if police went into that space and moved material without protection, they could have contaminated it.

From what I have seen, some of the news sources in England have decided to term all of the evidence in the apt. and the car contaminated. For me, that simply does not apply to the corpse fluid found in the wheel well of the Renault. It lacks the delicacy and sensitivity of DNA and I see no way to explain it away. The vehicle was rented 3 wks. after Madeleine vanished and that equates to the formation of cadaverine & putrescine. The public prosecutor (Meneses) is building a case for illegal transport & disposal of a corpse plus criminal fraud in the simulation of a kidnapping.

 

[Tuba]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/21/nmaddy521.xml

I think this acc't of Gerry McCann's 9:05 check on the children details how one story in the Portuguese press could have got it wrong. This acc't makes clear that he entered 5A, the inside door was ajar not as he'd left it (closed) & until he went into the children's room he thought Madeleine might have made a trip to get a drink or use the bathrm. All threee of the children were asleep in their beds when he went into the room. This is the same report I have seen from the beginning & as released in the initial stage of the investigation. What was added much later by Gerry McCann is the after thought that the kidnapper-intruder was undoubtedly in the flat at the same time he was. He seems to have figured that from his and the Oldfield and O'Brien checks because by the time Oldfield checked, the shutters were opened and the room too light and that was only ten minutes or so later.

 

[Tuba]

Read another jarring statement by G McCann today. He expressed regret that he wasn't in the apartment when Madeleine was taken even if he had only been in the other bedroom, as in sleeping. It hit me like one more attempt to avoid responsibility. In other words, he is saying it would have happened even if he were there. Although it is certainly true that kidnappers enter homes when parents are there and take their prey, it is far more likely something like that would happen when there is a regular routine of absenting yourself and leaving the children alone. Further, why wish you'd been there if it was inevitable--only to appear less negligent.