The Conclusion

[Brefie]

So now it's down to 20 minutes is it?

You wanna split hairs over the minutes?? You think it's any better if it is 5 hours???? NOPE!

 

[aussiesheila]

You can't even say LE wasn't treating them properly because at that stage they were getting treated with kiddie gloves. Eller had ordered that the Ramsey's be treated as victims, not suspects. They were an "influential family" and were to be treated as such.

Narlacat,

That was BEFORE the body was found. That was when he was treating it as a kidnapping which he had been told to do by the coverup mastermind. This was his excuse for not delving too deeply into what he knew was NOT a kidnapping IMO. Once the body had been found, as it was not supposed to have been in the original coverup plan, it was a whole new ballgame. That was when he started focussing on the Ramseys as the killers. Mike Bynam could see this very clearly by day 2, and that is why he offered his services as their lawyer. It was the Eller's continued focus on the Ramseys as the guilty parties to the exclusion of any other possibilities that was one of the contributing factors in the 3 and 1/2 month delay in the formal interviews at the police station IMO.

And don't anyone say I am repeating Ramsey propaganda. I have been to original sources wherever possible and have made up my own mind as can be evidenced by the fact that I think, unlike ANYone else either on this forum or in the official investigation, that John is 100% innocent but that Patsy had a considerable involvement in the events that led up to JonBenet's death and in the subsequent coverup.

 

[aussiesheila]

The Ramseys could have gone to court to get an order to exhume JBR to prove their "stun gun" theory once and for all.

The idea of exhuming the body of a loved one is universally repugnant to most people. I don't think the Ramseys were any different from most people in this regard.

Anyway, it was far too late, by the time the stun gun theory came out, to be able to detect whether one had been used or not on JonBenet. By that time her skin would have been rotten and slimy and riddled with worms and falling away from her bones at the very least and all evidence of any stungun marks erased, and I'm sure John and his advisers would have been well aware of that.

 

[aussiesheila]

And it also doesn't mean they didn't! There is a laundry list of guilty actions starting with calling the police when the mother of all ransom notes said she would be beheaded if they contacted anyone...both parents contaminating the crime scene, both in having people over, and JR moving the body, and Patsy throwing herself on the body, calling for da plane da plane...refusing to cooperate with police questioning for 4 months. What innocent parent refuses to speak to the police for 4 months and surrounds their immediate and extended families (plus the ex spouse) with attorneys on day one?

Don't ALL ransom notes say "don't call the police or your child will die" or words to that effect? And don't ALL parents of a kidnapped child call the police anyway?

I know ALL parents don't all call their friends around as well, but that was Patsy, not John. She was quite comfortable with that because she knew her daughter was already dead anyway IMO.

As far as their moving and throwing themselves on the body after John found it, their reactions seem to me to be perfectly consistent with grief-stricken parents who are suddenly confronted with a most awful reality, rather than parents who are play acting with sinister deception in mind.

 

[Brefie]

And Brefie,

Same question to you too.

Sorry - I just saw this.

Well, when a child is murdered in their home and their is no sign of forced entry, one has to look at the people who are placed in the home at the time of murder. When said folks try to get outta there as fast as possible it's one of those, 'things that make you go mmmmmm'.

What parent would not even want to know how she died?

 

[Brefie]

So now it's down to 20 minutes is it? Does that make him 3 times more likely to be guilty than if it was 1 hour?

What?

 

[Zman]

Don't ALL ransom notes say "don't call the police or your child will die" or words to that effect? And don't ALL parents of a kidnapped child call the police anyway?

I know ALL parents don't all call their friends around as well, but that was Patsy, not John. She was quite comfortable with that because she knew her daughter was already dead anyway IMO.

As far as their moving and throwing themselves on the body after John found it, their reactions seem to me to be perfectly consistent with grief-stricken parents who are suddenly confronted with a most awful reality, rather than parents who are play acting with sinister deception in mind.

I don't think it would work that way.

If PR knew her daughter was dead in the basement then I do not think she would be comfortalbe with calling her friends over. I think she would be mortified by the thought of one of her friends finding her beloved JBR like that.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Sorry - I just saw this.

Well, when a child is murdered in their home and their is no sign of forced entry, one has to look at the people who are placed in the home at the time of murder. When said folks try to get outta there as fast as possible it's one of those, 'things that make you go mmmmmm'.

What parent would not even want to know how she died?

mmmmmmmmm, were they running from the cops, or from a killer on the loose who was targeting their kids? mmmmmmm

 

[Brefie]

mmmmmmmmm, were they running from the cops or from a killer on the loose targeting their kids? mmmmmmm

Mmmm, one might think they wouldn't want to let Burke out of their sight, then. OR maybe they planned on leaving him behind, too. Mmmmmmmmm??

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Mmmm, one might think they wouldn't want to let Burke out of their sight, then. OR maybe they planned on leaving him behind, too. Mmmmmmmmm??

They let Burke play on the street or what? I think the idea was that they weren't going to stay in Boulder. Would you have?

 

[Brefie]

They let Burke play on the street or what? I think the idea was that they weren't going to stay in Boulder. Would you have?

Until the investigation was over? Absolutely.

 

[LinasK]

1) In light of the shock JR had just experienced, not much can be read into fying to Atlanta, except he wanted to keep his family safe at that moment. He was not thinking clearly.
2) They coorperated--they gave DNA, hair and blood when asked before they left for the funeral. The only thing they did was hire attorneys based on the advice of Mike Bynum--former assistant DA in Boulder.

1) It's called "flight of consciousness" I believe is the term and can be used as evidence of guilt. It was used in Scott Peterson's trial, and should have been used in O.J.'s as his chase was also caught on tape.
2) Not meeting with police for 4 months is NOT cooperating, especially when they would only meet on the Ramsey's terms. If this couple were truly innocent, if wouldn't matter if they stayed in the home, only that they stayed in town until the investigation was over, tried to assist police, and they should have pressed to be cleared as suspects.

 

[aussiesheila]

The Ramseys weren’t thinking about buying time when they concocted that note, they just dumped a whole bunch of beheading / foreign faction crap into it and called it good…the Ramseys weren’t thinking they would be stuck in the house that morning either waiting, waiting, waiting…who knew the police would be so short-handed they would leave one cop at the scene and NOT let the parents go. I think the Ramseys expected to have the police arrive, do a cursory search of the house, then LEAVE to solve the crime. At that point, the Ramseys could either stay and work on their alibi, leave to be in the company of someone who would give them an alibi, or go out looking for the kidnapper. At some point-in-time they would have left the house, the REAL police (which Boulder didn’t seem to have) would have probably gone back over the house with a fine-tooth comb at which time they would have found JBR wherever the parents had her stashed a little to well the first time, and the Ramseys could have said the killer returned her to the home….it was a ransom/kidnapping gone bad (instead of a Mother Gone Bad)…yada yada yada.

Moab,

Your theory as I understand it is that the Ramseys hid the body in the house and staged a torture/sexual abuse/botched kidnap event, wrote the most ridiculous ransom note that no-one with half a brain would conclude was legitimate, and immediately called the police.

My question is: wouldn't it have been FAR, FAR simpler and FAR more likely to be successful, to delay calling the police for 24 hours, stage a plain old ordinary regular kidnapping, write a short realistic ransom note and have the dead child eventually found way away from the house?

I know I, Zman, Maikai, (and others?) have asked this question or ones similar to it before, but to date I have never seen a satisfactory answer to it. Which is why I am asking it again.

And why the hurry to have the police visit the house? And if as you say, they were expecting the police to come and do a brief search then leave immediately without finding the body, this being essential for their plan to work, how stupid was that? How could they reliably expect the police to behave this way?

Then according to your theory they write a ransom note supposedly left behind by the torturer/sexual abuser/failed kidnapper. What were the police supposed to have deduced from this? That the intending kidnapper wrote the note, left it on the stairs and then instead of leaving immediately with the child, stays in the house and tortures and abuses her and kills her.

John; staid, levelheaded, intelligent, left-brained, highly successful businessman that he was would never be party to the staging of such a ludicrous and inept scenario. IMO if John WAS guilty he would have done a FAR more clever coverup job than the one you are proposing. He at least would have had the sense not to leave a ransom note unless he had gotten rid of the body.

On the other hand, I can quite see Patsy writing the note, and I think she did, in fact write it at the behest of others but certainly not with John's involvement.

It's all very well for you to say yada yada yada as part of your theory but that just demonstrates to me that your theory is even too absurd for you to trouble yourself to try go into sufficient detail to expain it satisfactorily.

That is what they “planned” to have happen, but Arndt really messed up that plan by keeping everyone in the house. John was pacing around, checking the mail, having a drink – Patsy was boo hooing in another room. Poor John, I’ll bet he thought they would NEVER get out of that house that day! When it became apparent they were all cozily tucked in for the long haul, John probably almost pee’d his pants…their plan was going awry. On one of his trips around the house that day, he moved JBR to a slightly better vantage point, albeit, still behind a closed door. The same door FW had opened earlier and not spotted anything without the lights on. Then Arndt gave John the golden opportunity to speed right into the conclusion of their little mess…she told him to take someone with him and search the house from TOP to bottom to see if he saw anything out of place. So what does John do? He makes a beeline for the BASEMENT and the room where JBR lay dead. His plan almost foiled by FW who was following a bit too closely behind him forcing John to say “I FOUND HER” or whatever he said as soon as the door was open, and BEFORE the light was even turned on…and how could he say that? Because he knew right where she was! After this, they evaded questioning for 4 months until their stories gelled and voila – a crime was born.

You then seem to change tack and go on to theorise that because the police didn't leave quickly, that John had to stage 'finding' the body himself while the police were still there. You'll have to explain this to me, I simply don't follow.

 

[aussiesheila]

Sorry - I just saw this.

Well, when a child is murdered in their home and their is no sign of forced entry, one has to look at the people who are placed in the home at the time of murder.

There may not have been any forced entry, but there were plenty of keys to the house distributed around Boulder to all and sundry

 

[LinasK]

Moab,

Your theory as I understand it is that the Ramseys hid the body in the house and staged a torture/sexual abuse/botched kidnap event, wrote the most ridiculous ransom note that no-one with half a brain would conclude was legitimate, and immediately called the police.

And why the hurry to have the police visit the house? And if as you say, they were expecting the police to come and do a brief search then leave immediately without finding the body, this being essential for their plan to work, how stupid was that? How could they reliably expect the police to behave this way?

Then according to your theory they write a ransom note supposedly left behind by the torturer/sexual abuser/failed kidnapper. What were the police supposed to have deduced from this? That the intending kidnapper wrote the note, left it on the stairs and then instead of leaving immediately with the child, stays in the house and tortures and abuses her and kills her.

You then seem to change tack and go on to theorise that because the police didn't leave quickly, that John had to stage 'finding' the body himself while the police were still there. You'll have to explain this to me, I simply don't follow.

Nope Sheila, it makes perfect sense to me, although I'm not Moab. The order was the sexual assault (I believe by John). He had not intended to kill her, but it got out of hand. Instead of owning up to it and seeking help, JBR gets finished off, then the Ramsey's go to work on the coverup. Patsy's job was to write the Ransom Note. John couldn't stand how long it took the police not to find JBR, when all along he knew she was in the basement. So instead of calling Arndt downstairs like an innocent person would do, he contaminates the crime scene by bringing JBR up the stairs himself. It all fits...

 

[aussiesheila]

I don't think it would work that way.

If PR knew her daughter was dead in the basement then I do not think she would be comfortalbe with calling her friends over. I think she would be mortified by the thought of one of her friends finding her beloved JBR like that.

Zman,

This is my theory, and it's logical even if it's not believable:

After the killing of JonBenet, which was unintentional as far as her regular sex abusers were concerned, Patsy was persuaded by the coverup mastermind to write the ransom note (sometime between 2 and 5 am). He told her to include in the ransom note threats that JonBenet would be killed if they called the police. This was intended to stop John from calling the police but did not work as John told Patsy to call the police anyway, in spite of the the threats, which she did.

In addition to convincing Patsy to write the ransom note, the coverup mastermind instructed her to call him and his wife as soon as she had 'discovered' the ransom note on the spiral staircase, they would come over immediately and 'look after' things.

He had already organised the regular sex abusers to hide the body well - so nobody, including John would find it (and neither would the police because, according to the plan they would not ever be there).

The plan required that the body not be found in the house at all, it was just meant to be hidden in the cellar until they could get rid of it in the mountains after which they could contact the police and report a kidnapping. This part of the plan did not work either because John, under instructions from Linda Arndt, went looking for things amiss in the house and found the body anyway.

 

[Maikai]

1) It's called "flight of consciousness" I believe is the term and can be used as evidence of guilt. It was used in Scott Peterson's trial, and should have been used in O.J.'s as his chase was also caught on tape.
2) Not meeting with police for 4 months is NOT cooperating, especially when they would only meet on the Ramsey's terms. If this couple were truly innocent, if wouldn't matter if they stayed in the home, only that they stayed in town until the investigation was over, tried to assist police, and they should have pressed to be cleared as suspects.

Peterson had months to plan his getaway...JR had just gone through a horrible shock--and was told to leave his house. He had lost all confidence in the police--they were suppose to be the experts. Not only did they not handle the call correctly, the crime scene was contaminated, and time loss. On top of that, they then were out to get the Ramseys from the start. Why would he want to rely on them for anything? Would you go back to an incompetent surgeon that botched an operation? The lack of cooperation is another urban legend put out by the leakers.

 

[aussiesheila]

Nope Sheila, it makes perfect sense to me, although I'm not Moab. The order was the sexual assault (I believe by John). He had not intended to kill her, but it got out of hand. Instead of owning up to it and seeking help, JBR gets finished off, then the Ramsey's go to work on the coverup. Patsy's job was to write the Ransom Note. John couldn't stand how long it took the police not to find JBR, when all along he knew she was in the basement. So instead of calling Arndt downstairs like an innocent person would do, he contaminates the crime scene by bringing JBR up the stairs himself. It all fits...

So LinasK, you think that John had been regularly abusing JonBenet. You think that on the night she was killed he had applied a ligature around her neck, maybe was using a stungun also (but you probably don't think a stungun was involved do you? So I'll leave that out). Then you think that he possibly pulled the ligature a little too tight and accidentally strangled her, saw her go limp, shook her, then to make sure she was dead, picked up a baseball bat from the floor and whacked her across the head? Then Patsy wrote the ludicrous ransom note, which John didn't check out, they redressed and wrapped JonBenet's body in a blanket and hid it in the cellar. I am trying to construct the most reasonably believable scenario within the constraints of your theory.

This is all possible I suppose. But it does have some problems with it, I think.

Firstly John has been investigated to the nth degree and not a shred of evidence has been found to indicate that he is a pedophile. Absolutely zilch, zappo. That is highly significant to me as I am not aware of any investigation into a pedophile that has not turned up something even just the tiniest thing that might make one suspicious.

Secondly I do not think he would leave it to Patsy to write the ransom note. Like alot of men I imagine he preferred to be in control and most especially he would want to be if he found himself if such a devastatingly serious situation as this. I feel sure he would have made sure composed the note himself and not leave it to such a featherbrain as Patsy.

Thirdly you have to explain why he insisted Patsy call the police so early instead of waiting until he had organised the removal of the body.

Fourthly I think hitting JonBenet over the head with such huge force when she was close to death is not what a person would be inclined to do even for someone as sick as the perpetrator. It might be what you do with a dying animal to put it out of it's misery but it isn't what one does with another human being unless one is a psychopath and I think that has been ruled out in John's case.

Fifthly, if John was operating at least the ligature I cannot see how he could have been getting any sexual gratification out of the episode given that it would have required more than one set of hands to manipulate both her and himself and the ligature and I don't think she would have been co-operating. Oh, but there's another thought - maybe she was. So you can cross out fifthly if you like.

Sixthly, why would he have decided to write a ransom note? Why not some kind of sick note indicating that an intruder pedophile had gotten to her and killed her and wanted to taunt John about it? Why write a note at all? It's just all the more to implicate yourself with.

Hate to disagree, but no it doesn't fit...

 

[aussiesheila]

What?

forget it. put it down to too much time posting... on my part

 

[Zman]

Zman,

This is my theory, and it's logical even if it's not believable:

Exactly.