The danger of a closed mind

[sissi]

RAMSEY, P: And if anyone knows anything, please, please help us. For the safety of all of the children, we have to find out who did this.

RAMSEY, J: Not because we're angry, but because we have got to go on.

RAMSEY, P: We can't -- we can't --

RAMSEY, J: This -- we cannot go on until we know why. There's no answer as to why our daughter died.

CABELL: As you know in cases like this it's very normal police procedure to look at the family first of all as possible suspects in this case. The Ramsey's say they understand this, they're well aware of the Susan Smith case of a couple of years ago, they understand that possibly they would be looked at suspiciously and they say they accept this


..I do NOT know why John said, not because we're angry, but I am not dismissing the possibility that other comments were deleted. I have been on several news channels, including CNN, and I DO VERY WELL UNDERSTAND that often an answer is applied to a question that didn't exist at the time of interview..this possibility ( in my case it was a probability)of course makes me skeptical. However, it may be..just what it is.

 

[aussiesheila]

Sharper this is interesting, when and where did you see Patsy behave like this.
Sharper quote..<I think Grandpa because he would have been the most likely abuser of patsy
patsy's whole demeanor changed when questioned about abuse in her childhood, voice , she actually physically tried to shrink herself according the the witness and acted and sounded like a little girl. Some believe she disassociated even>.

Or if you didn't , who did, who states that this occurred?

Sissi, Jayelles told me about this. I think it is the videotape of one of the police interviews. Jayelles saw it and described it to me and I think she posted a link to it for me which unfortunately I couldn't open. The way she described it it sounded to me as though there was a sudden and dramatic change in Patsy's demeanor just as sharpar stated. It was this that convinced me that Patsy was sexually abused as a child, something I had only suspected might have been the case, prior to hearing this.

If Jayelles sees this she will, no doubt be able to tell you more.

 

[aussiesheila]

I can understand a few thinking it was an accident, however, where did the impression originate that Patsy wouldn't call for help or an ambulance. What about her personality suggests that she would rather molest, garrotte, and brutalize a dying child? Stage an accident, lay her at the bottom of the spiral steps, if she was strangled one's imagination could probably cover that as well. Why would a parent stage a horrendous murder to cover up an accident?

And another question Jayelles, why would John, a highly intelligent man, stage such a ludicrous coverup?

I know I've asked this question before and the BORGs have not yet come up with a logical answer to this crucial question. Since you have been so damning of the RSTs perhaps you would oblige with an answer to this question.

Even if one of the Ramseys had sexually abused JonBenet and strangled her and cracked her skull open, if they were going to stage a kidnapping John would surely have gotten rid of the body before calling the police and he would most certainly not have organised for such an absurdly long and rambling ransom note to be left by the supposed kidnapper. If they had been unable to remove the body from the house it would have been far more logical to have staged a murder by a supposed child molester and concocted three page hate note.

 

[rashomon]

I can understand a few thinking it was an accident, however, where did the impression originate that Patsy wouldn't call for help or an ambulance. What about her personality suggests that she would rather molest, garrotte, and brutalize a dying child? Stage an accident, lay her at the bottom of the spiral steps, if she was strangled one's imagination could probably cover that as well. Why would a parent stage a horrendous murder to cover up an accident?

While every parent woud call an ambulance if their child had an accident and the parent was in no way involved in this accident, things become more complicated if the parent was the cause of the accident, e. g. the child was injured because the parent hurt her. Many parents to whom this happens try to cover it up too: they tell the pediatrician or the hospital that the child fell down the stairs or against the bathtub, etc.
Patsy probably realized at once that the head wound inflicted to JB was deadly serious. She knew that she would have to take responsibilty for it and be charged with (at least) manslaughter. Even if she wouldn't have had to go to prison (I suppose savvy Ramsey lawyers would have successfuly defended her), imagine what life would been like for her afterwards. Finger-pointing: "Look, that's Patsy Ramsey over there: that woman killed her daughter by bashing her head in. Terrible!" That's what people would gossip behind her back.
Or Burke having to live with the fact that his sister died at his mother's hands. Imagine what school and playground bullies would throw in his face.
In short, the Ramseys would have been completely ostracized by society, even by their wealthy friends, because killing your child (even if it was unintentional) is something so deeply shocking for everyone that no one will ever forget about it. So it would always have 'been there' with Patsy.
The same would have been true if JB had survived heavily brain-damaged. Imagine Patsy having to push around JB in a wheelchair in public, and everyone would know that it was she who was responsible for the state JB was in. Could anyone of us live with such a guilt? I know I couldn't.
I think that is was these thoughts which rushed through Patsy's head; she knew that by admitting what she had done, her life would be over, and frantically sought a way to avoid responsibilitiy by trying to cover the crime up.
If she hadn't had another child to take care of, Burke, I can imagine that Patsy would have committed suicide immediately after killing JonBenet.

 

[sharpar]

And another question Jayelles, why would John, a highly intelligent man, stage such a ludicrous coverup?

I propose that it wasnt John who did the staging, the physical aspects of it anyway but the panicked murderer. John just went along with the plan.
I believe most was done before he was involved.

 

[Jayelles]

And another question Jayelles, why would John, a highly intelligent man, stage such a ludicrous coverup?

I know I've asked this question before and the BORGs have not yet come up with a logical answer to this crucial question. Since you have been so damning of the RSTs perhaps you would oblige with an answer to this question.

Even if one of the Ramseys had sexually abused JonBenet and strangled her and cracked her skull open, if they were going to stage a kidnapping John would surely have gotten rid of the body before calling the police and he would most certainly not have organised for such an absurdly long and rambling ransom note to be left by the supposed kidnapper. If they had been unable to remove the body from the house it would have been far more logical to have staged a murder by a supposed child molester and concocted three page hate note.

OKay - technically, I'm not a BORG since I don't believe the Ramseys killed their daughter, but I have long since come to accept that the RST consider everyone who isn't a fully paid up member of the RST to be a BORG so....

Why didn't John get rid of the body? That is simple. If the Ramseys found themselves with a dead child on their hands and facing the prospect of the death sentence - not to mention the compelte destruction of their families and careers ... then they might have considered removing the body from the house - as though a kidnapping had actually taken place. Except that this would have presented one or two problems:-

1. Being seen by a neighbour
2. Being heard by a neighbour
3. Time factor - by the time they'd done their initial panicking and thinking - how much time was left for the cover-up?

However, most significantly...

3. The fact that it was snowing outside - a little problem of fresh footprints or car tracks coming from and going to their own house/garage might have been a dead giveaway to their involvement - don't you think?

If that isn't a logical reason - please tell me why not.

AND PS :- I don't ever recall suggesting that John staged any cover-up so I'm not really sure why you've addressed this to me at all!

 

[sharpar]

Read it again - What was asked was what you know about Patsy

changing so utterly on the video of her interview about childhood sexual abuse.

She just threw in the staging John question --

 

[rashomon]

OKay - technically, I'm not a BORG since I don't believe the Ramseys killed their daughter, but I have long since come to accept that the RST consider everyone who isn't a fully paid up member of the RST to be a BORG so....

Why didn't John get rid of the body? That is simple. If the Ramseys found themselves with a dead child on their hands and facing the prospect of the death sentence - not to mention the compelte destruction of their families and careers ... then they might have considered removing the body from the house - as though a kidnapping had actually taken place. Except that this would have presented one or two problems:-

1. Being seen by a neighbour
2. Being heard by a neighbour
3. Time factor - by the time they'd done their initial panicking and thinking - how much time was left for the cover-up?

However, most significantly...

3. The fact that it was snowing outside - a little problem of fresh footprints or car tracks coming from and going to their own house/garage might have been a dead giveaway to their involvement - don't you think?

If that isn't a logical reason - please tell me why not.

AND PS :- I don't ever recall suggesting that John staged any cover-up so I'm not really sure why you've addressed this to me at all!

Aussiesheila, the points Jayelles listed are imo too exactly the reasons why the Ramseys did not (could not) get rid of the body.

 

[UKGuy]

Aussiesheila, the points Jayelles listed are imo too exactly the reasons why the Ramseys did not (could not) get rid of the body.

Kind of but there is nothing to stop the body being placed outdoors, then the Ramseys stating they searched outdoors on foot for her, thereby obsfucating the forensic evidence, then they drove in the car, could not find her gave up, and dialled 911.

Its not foolproof suspicion would still fall on them but imo, its better than the wine-cellar staging ...

 

[Jayelles]

Read it again - What was asked was what you know about Patsy

changing so utterly on the video of her interview about childhood sexual abuse.

She just threw in the staging John question --

I recall pointing a poster to the Patsy interview video and it could have been AussieSheila. Like many others I watched the videos (I watched them over the Internet). All I can say is that many commented on Patsy's change of demeanour when she was asked about abuse in her family. I would say her demeanour changed. She became almost childlike. The quality of the video was poor so it wasn't possible to see her face properly, but her voice changed noticeably.

You can't tell demeanour from the written word, but read the interview - "No audible response" - TWICE.

19 TOM HANEY: Have you ever suffered
20 any physical abuse?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Absolutely not.
22 TOM HANEY: In childhood, you know,
23 dating, your adult life?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: (NO AUDIBLE
25 RESPONSE).
0586
1 TOM HANEY: How about sexual abuse?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: (NO AUDIBLE
3 RESPONSE).
4 TOM HANEY: How about anybody in
5 your family ever suffered any physical abuse?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Not to my
7 knowledge.
8 TOM HANEY: Your sisters?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Not to my
10 knowledge.
11 TOM HANEY: Sexual abuse, have they
12 ever confided in you that--
13 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No. What's
14 this got to do with JonBenet?
15 TOM HANEY: What it has to do with
16 first of all, is, whether or not you have ever
17 really discussed things like this with people or
18 somebody has confided in you?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
20 TOM HANEY: A friend . And I
21 mentioned your sisters, you have two, correct?
22 What was your relationship with them growing up?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Very close.
24 TOM HANEY: How -- what are your
25 ages, how close are you?
0587
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I am two and a half
2 years older than my next sister and -
3 TOM HANEY: Which is?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Pam.
5 TOM HANEY: And--
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Seven years older
7 than Paulette.
8 TOM HANEY: Okay. But you guys
9 were all raised together?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
11 TOM HANEY: Spend a lot of time
12 together?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
14 TOM HANEY: Were all of you
15 involved in pageants at an early age?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TOM HANEY: Okay. Were the other
18 two?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Pam was, Ms. West 20 Virginia two years after I was, or three.
21 Paulette was not.
22 TOM HANEY: Did Paulette have any
23 problem with pageants or object to 'em or just--
24 PATSY RAMSEY: She was a swimmer.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay, so that just
0588
1 wasn't her thing?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 TOM HANEY: In growing up, were all
4 of you treated pretty much the same?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: As far as I could
6 tell.
7 TOM HANEY: No favorite? Youngest,
8 oldest?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Not from my
10 perspective, no.
11 TOM HANEY: And growing up, what
12 was your socio-economic status?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: We lived in a very
14 nice neighborhood, drove nice new cars. I
15 thought we had everything. You know, I don't --
16 I have never --
17 TOM HANEY: Never wanted for
18 things?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Never.
20 TOM HANEY: Okay, able to travel
21 and--
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Take vacations.
23 TOM HANEY: Go out?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Whatever.

Don't take my word for it though - why not e-mail Court-TV (or was it 48 hours?) and ask them to put the video online again. Then you can see it for yourself.

 

[aussiesheila]

And another question Jayelles, why would John, a highly intelligent man, stage such a ludicrous coverup?

I propose that it wasnt John who did the staging, the physical aspects of it anyway but the panicked murderer. John just went along with the plan.
I believe most was done before he was involved.

You mean that Patsy did the staging? If not who? How was JonBenet killed and what was staged? At what point did John begin to go along with the plan?

 

[aussiesheila]

OKay - technically, I'm not a BORG since I don't believe the Ramseys killed their daughter, but I have long since come to accept that the RST consider everyone who isn't a fully paid up member of the RST to be a BORG so....

I thought one either believed an intruder killed JonBenet, in which case one was an RST or one believed a Ramsey killed her in which case one was a BORG. You mean there is a third category?

 

[Jayelles]

I thought one either believed an intruder killed JonBenet, in which case one was an RST or one believed a Ramsey killed her in which case one was a BORG. You mean there is a third category?

Absolutely there is a third category - that of Fencesitter - people who retain an open mind based upon the evidence (or lack of).

However, it would seem that the RST (Ramsey Spin Team) often consider that anyone who doesn't give the Ramseys an honorary pass based upon "the kind of people we are" - are therefore evil minded BORGs who are jealous of the Ramsey's wealth and status and who simply WANT them to be guilty. i.e. if you aren't for them - you're against them.

If you have read any of my posts over the past 6 years, you will see that I have never believed the ramseys to be guilty of murdering their daughter and in fact, I have never moved from one particular intruder theory. I'll leave you to do the research if you are interested.

 

[aussiesheila]

OKay - technically, I'm not a BORG since I don't believe the Ramseys killed their daughter, but I have long since come to accept that the RST consider everyone who isn't a fully paid up member of the RST to be a BORG so....

Why didn't John get rid of the body? That is simple. If the Ramseys found themselves with a dead child on their hands and facing the prospect of the death sentence - not to mention the compelte destruction of their families and careers ... then they might have considered removing the body from the house - as though a kidnapping had actually taken place. Except that this would have presented one or two problems:-

1. Being seen by a neighbour
2. Being heard by a neighbour
3. Time factor - by the time they'd done their initial panicking and thinking - how much time was left for the cover-up?

However, most significantly...

3. The fact that it was snowing outside - a little problem of fresh footprints or car tracks coming from and going to their own house/garage might have been a dead giveaway to their involvement - don't you think?

If that isn't a logical reason - please tell me why not.

AND PS :- I don't ever recall suggesting that John staged any cover-up so I'm not really sure why you've addressed this to me at all!

It might be a logical reason for something but it doesn't address the questions I asked.

You have tried to explain why they couldn't get rid of the body. I didn't ask that question. I actually asked if they couldn't get rid of the body then why didn't they stage a killing by a child molester and write a hate note?

I don't accept your reasoning as to why they couldn't get rid of the body anyway. According to the ransom note the supposed kidnapper was going to call between 8 and 10 tomorrow morning, so they actually had another 28 hours before they needed to call the police, 28 hours in which they surely could have managed to get rid of the body and then call the police after the supposed kidnapper had failed to call.

And in answer to your PS, my reasoning is this: You haven't posted your theory in the theories thread and other than identifying yourself as a nonRST there is no way of my knowing exactly who you would think staged the coverup. To conclude that a BORG would be most likely believe that John staged the coverup is a reasonable assumption.

I addressed my post to you in reply to your post 74 in which you, without justification, posted a generalised belittling of all so-called RSTs. So much for all that rhetoric about this forum encouraging and protecting a mix of opinions.

 

[Jayelles]

It might be a logical reason for something but it doesn't address the questions I asked.

You have tried to explain why they couldn't get rid of the body. I didn't ask that question. I actually asked if they couldn't get rid of the body then why didn't they stage a killing by a child molester and write a hate note?

Colour me stupid - but aren't you describing the Ramsey murder?

I don't accept your reasoning as to why they couldn't get rid of the body anyway. According to the ransom note the supposed kidnapper was going to call between 8 and 10 tomorrow morning, so they actually had another 28 hours before they needed to call the police, 28 hours in which they surely could have managed to get rid of the body and then call the police after the supposed kidnapper had failed to call.

28 hours? Please tell me how you arrive at that figure. The ETD is between 10pm and 1am. The naote said the kidnapper would call at 10pm the next morning which gave just 9-12 hours not 28 hours.

And in answer to your PS, my reasoning is this: You haven't posted your theory in the theories thread and other than identifying yourself as a nonRST there is no way of my knowing exactly who you would think staged the coverup. To conclude that a BORG would be most likely believe that John staged the coverup is a reasonable assumption.

I addressed my post to you in reply to your post 74 in which you, without justification, posted a generalised belittling of all so-called RSTs. So much for all that rhetoric about this forum encouraging and protecting a mix of opinions.

My theory is posted on several forums and is well enough known as far as I am aware. I don't ram it down people's throats.

Most BORG posters that I know think Patsy did it - very few think John did it.

Please don't confuse RST with IDI. RST comprise of a very small hard-core of posters who simply refuse to consider that the ramseys might be less than perfect and who will rationalise every aspect of their behaviour.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I guess I'm one of the dreaded BORGs in that I think a Ramsey did it. I believe Patsy is the most likely, and I believe she wrote the note, but I could also accept the idea that John did it, and even consider the idea that Burke did it. I think it was a Ramsey because I don't think they would go this far and work this hard to cover for anyone other than one of their own.

 

[rashomon]

Kind of but there is nothing to stop the body being placed outdoors, then the Ramseys stating they searched outdoors on foot for her, thereby obsfucating the forensic evidence, then they drove in the car, could not find her gave up, and dialled 911.

Its not foolproof suspicion would still fall on them but imo, its better than the wine-cellar staging ...

But still they could have been seen carrying something (=JB's body) to their car. Imo they initially considered dumping JB's body somewhere outside, but finally decided against it because they thought it to risky.

 

[Jayelles]

But still they could have been seen carrying something (=JB's body) to their car. Imo they initially considered dumping JB's body somewhere outside, but finally decided against it because they thought it to risky.

Well there is evidence that an attempt was made to put her in the suitcase. Removing her body seems to have been considered.

I have a samsonite suitcase and it has little satin pockets which attach to the side of the case with poppers. It was considered in a previous discussion that these might have been the cause of the marks on her body.

 

[rashomon]

Well there is evidence that an attempt was made to put her in the suitcase. Removing her body seems to have been considered.

I have a samsonite suitcase and it has little satin pockets which attach to the side of the case with poppers. It was considered in a previous discussion that these might have been the cause of the marks on her body.

Would these marks be the alleged 'stun gun' marks - Lou Smit's theory - (but which according to stun gun experts like Tuttle and Stratbucker, did not resemble stun gun marks at all)?
But suppose the Ramseys had actually put JB in the suitcase - but then wouldn't some trace evidence from her body have been left behind inside the suitcase (hairs/hair fragments, fibers, etc. )?

 

[Jayelles]

Would these marks be the alleged 'stun gun' marks - Lou Smit's theory - (but which according to stun gun experts like Tuttle and Stratbucker, did not resemble stun gun marks at all)?
But suppose the Ramseys had actually put JB in the suitcase - but then wouldn't some trace evidence from her body have been left behind inside the suitcase (hairs/hair fragments, fibers, etc. )?

Yes I think there was trace evidence to suggest she had been put in the suitcase. My memory isn't clear but I believe the suitcase had a blanket in it with evidence of Jonbenet on it.