The danger of a closed mind

[Seeker]

The only footprints mentioned were shoe prints.

I thought there was only one unnaccounted for partial boot print found?

BTW what is comonly called mold isn't actually mold. It's residue from the concrete that looks like soap IMO.

 

[rashomon]

Apparently JonBenet was placed in bed wearing her socks, and that was the last they saw of her until her corpse was discovered the following day.
So JonBenet was up and walking about prior to being killed otherwise her feet should be relatively clean.

Good question: how did JB's feet get dirty?

Could it be that her feet had already been dirty before she went to the Whites' party? Hardly likely, but not totally improbable imo because JB was also a child who e. g. did not wipe herself properly after a bowel movement, and whose parents let her have her own way most of the time, and since the Whites' party did not require a 'pageant scrub', maybe they just left her dirty feet as they were, merely putting socks on them.

 

[Seeker]

Good question: how did JB's feet get dirty?

Could it be that her feet had already been dirty before she went to the Whites' party? Hardly likely, but not totally improbable imo because JB was also a child who e. g. did not wipe herself properly after a bowel movement, and whose parents let her have her own way most of the time, and since the Whites' party did not require a 'pageant scrub', maybe they just left her dirty feet as they were, merely putting socks on them.

Maybe her feet got dirty at the Whites while she was playing with Daphne. Or maybe while she was running around early that morning at home and Patsy didn't make her change her socks before they got dressed to go to the Whites.

BTW just where did this info about her feet being dirty come from to begin with?

 

[Toltec]

The Ramseys chose to stay with the least threatening couple...the Fernies. The Whites are outspoken people...and would definately say something if Mike Bynum showed up and then the next day have a high-powered defense team show up. Fleet and Priscilla would have had a fit.

Patsy Ramsey told Detectives she was last in the wine cellar Christmas Eve. She retrieved presents she stored there. Where are her footprints???

I thought JonBenet wore leotard-type stockings to the Whites???

I believe JonBenet dressed herself....and not changed her soiled panties from earlier in the day. It was only the night of her death that her panties were changed and she was wiped down.

 

[Camper]

Sorry forgot think it was Seeker who gave information about stuff that appears from cement, do you mean from OLDE cement or later years of newer cement? I would like more info on cement gook, do you have some er an explanation about what it IS in reality. I donut know how ya make cement, er whuts init, er whut has to happen to create the gook/mold er.

I would be thinking that the cement in that olde house would be olde cement, and would have oozed er whutever prior to the invention of High Tech shoes, huh, er? IF it was olde gook would it have been hard a long time ago, er impressionable in 1996?

Whatever info we had on the dirt and LINT on the bottoms of JonBenets feet came from the 'books' as I recall. Lint can be fresh or compacted by the heat of a foot. We donut know if it was fresh and fluffy-ish er smashed from wearing socks, OR fuzz from the socks themselves.

I would like to hear the ME explanation of what he considers lint to be - fuzz or fluff from the dryer type stuff. If her socks were white, and fuzz was white, comparisons could have been made, but perhaps were not. Coulda been dust bunnies type stuff, perhaps similar would have been found in the basement SOMEWHERE. WE donut know that either.

Good question about where the lint was found on the foot, if from the socks, coulda been tween her toes or in the higher portions of the bottom of her foot. IF it came from walking in a room with dust bunnies, it could have been on the pad type bottoms of her feet, those areas where you actually leave a foot print, or pick up stuff on that same area of the foot.

The dirt possibly could have been compared to other dirty areas in the home. Different type of dirt in different areas of the home.

I am beginning to think that JonBenet might not have been in the car on the way home from the Whites that night, but might have gone on ahead with others for some particular reason. I don't remember any report where it said that anyone actually SAW her in the family car, it was only said that she was IN the car. Correct me if I err on that.

.

 

[narlacat]

Maybe her feet got dirty at the Whites while she was playing with Daphne. Or maybe while she was running around early that morning at home and Patsy didn't make her change her socks before they got dressed to go to the Whites.

BTW just where did this info about her feet being dirty come from to begin with?

I know Patsy can't tell us whether or not JonBenet had a bath before she left for the White's party, but I've always thought it made most sense that she did have a bath before getting dressed into nicer clothes and looking presentable for the party, that to me was just another one of the Ramseys 'amnesia moments' or attorneys advice...

I've never heard that she had leotard type stockings on....if that's true, well.. she wouldn't have taken them off to play outside at the party, like say if she had have had shoes and socks on..
I thought John said he took her shoes and socks off....

I think it's UKGuy who mentions the feet alot

 

[UKGuy]

I know Patsy can't tell us whether or not JonBenet had a bath before she left for the White's party, but I've always thought it made most sense that she did have a bath before getting dressed into nicer clothes and looking presentable for the party, that to me was just another one of the Ramseys 'amnesia moments' or attorneys advice...

I've never heard that she had leotard type stockings on....if that's true, well.. she wouldn't have taken them off to play outside at the party, like say if she had have had shoes and socks on..
I thought John said he took her shoes and socks off....

I think it's UKGuy who mentions the feet alot

narlacat,

Sure do, thats because if she was abducted straight from her bed you would expect her to be wearing her socks.

Since John Ramsey told Det. Arndt on the morning of the 26th that he carried JonBenet, who was still asleep, upstairs to her room, where he took her shoes off and read to her. (pmpt L. Schiller)

And Small bits of lint and dust were on her bare feet(itrmi Steve Thomas, pp38)

Also one of Patsy's many takes on this:

http://www.acandyrose.com/12261996-911.htm


COURIC: What time was it that you got home?

Mr. RAMSEY: Oh, I don't remember. It was...

Ms. RAMSEY: It was...

Mr. RAMSEY: Ninish, probably.

Ms. RAMSEY: JonBenet had fallen asleep. She had fallen asleep in the back of the car by the time we got home.

COURIC: Did she ever wake up? Tell me what happened once you got her home.
Ms. RAMSEY: We put her to--John carried her up to bed, and then I, you know, kind of got her undressed and pulled her pajama pants on. They were kind of long underwear pants that were in her pajama drawer. She was sound asleep. Tucked her in bed, kissed her good night, said the prayers, and...

COURIC: You said your prayers.

Ms. RAMSEY: I said my prayers over her and tucked her in bed.

COURIC: That was really the last thing.

Ms. RAMSEY: Mm-hmm.

COURIC: Your last interaction with her.

Ms. RAMSEY: Right.

COURIC: You took melatonin that night, which is, I guess, an herbal sleep aid. You write in the book, unfortunately, you slept very soundly.

Mr. RAMSEY: Yeah, soundly, I slept too soundly.

COURIC: You heard nothing that night?

Ms. RAMSEY: I heard nothing that night, Katie. Nothing. I'll never--I mean, I've asked God that a million times. Why didn't I wake up? Why didn't I hear something? I don't know why. I don't know why, but I am telling you I didn't hear a thing. Nothing.


.

 

[rashomon]

I happen to think that when FW stated he saw nothing in the wine cellar he was lying. I believe JonBenet's body was placed there soon after she was murdered at around 2 am and that her body was there all the time until John found it at 1.30 pm.

Detectives Thomas and Gosage recreated the scene in the wine cellar, with the same lighting conditions and a blanket put where JB's blanket was found. They stood at the doorstep where FW had stood: the windowless room was pitch-black and neither Gosage nor Thomas could see anything.
But since John knew JB's body was in there, he acted as if he had 'seen' her, although he stood at the exact same spot where FW had been before.

 

[UKGuy]

The Ramseys chose to stay with the least threatening couple...the Fernies. The Whites are outspoken people...and would definately say something if Mike Bynum showed up and then the next day have a high-powered defense team show up. Fleet and Priscilla would have had a fit.

Patsy Ramsey told Detectives she was last in the wine cellar Christmas Eve. She retrieved presents she stored there. Where are her footprints???

I thought JonBenet wore leotard-type stockings to the Whites???

I believe JonBenet dressed herself....and not changed her soiled panties from earlier in the day. It was only the night of her death that her panties were changed and she was wiped down.

Toltec,
Why bother changing her underwear, she is dead, and intentionally so, why risk adding more forensic evidence, what is gained by her wearing clean underwear, what is the purpose in wiping her down, its hardly cosmetic, given the abrasions and contusions on her neck, and the pallor of her face.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Detectives Thomas and Gosage recreated the scene in the wine cellar, with the same lighting conditions and a blanket put where JB's blanket was found. They stood at the doorstep where FW had stood: the windowless room was pitch-black and neither Gosage nor Thomas could see anything.
But since John knew JB's body was in there, he acted as if he had 'seen' her, although he stood at the exact same spot where FW had been before.

rashomon,

Why should John know JonBenet's body was lying in there?


.

 

[Camper]

Detectives Thomas and Gosage recreated the scene in the wine cellar, with the same lighting conditions and a blanket put where JB's blanket was found. They stood at the doorstep where FW had stood: the windowless room was pitch-black and neither Gosage nor Thomas could see anything.
But since John knew JB's body was in there, he acted as if he had 'seen' her, although he stood at the exact same spot where FW had been before.

------>>>I agree.

 

[Camper]

Toltec,
Why bother changing her underwear, she is dead, and intentionally so, why risk adding more forensic evidence, what is gained by her wearing clean underwear, what is the purpose in wiping her down, its hardly cosmetic, given the abrasions and contusions on her neck, and the pallor of her face.

.

-->>>The purpose was sorrow, trying to make things 'better'.


.

 

[aussiesheila]

A staged strangling doesn't mean that it was no 'real' strangling, only that the ligature was pulled tight around JonBenet's neck when she was already in a coma from the headbash. The autopsy says death from strangulation 'associated with' a head injury, but the choice of the word 'associated with' does not point to an exact time line. Imo this means that the head blow itself would possibly have been fatal too.

rashomon, I agree that the head blow in itself would have been fatal.

If there had only been the head blow there would have been massive amounts of bleeding, much more than was what was revealed by the autopsy. The 'real' strangling must have occurred prior to the head blow to account for the small amount of bleeding that occurred as the result of the head blow. Even if the 'real' strangling had occurred moments after the head blow there still would have been much more bleeding than there actually was.

The autopsy evidence points unequivocally to the strangulation occurring prior to the head bash and any theory relating to the death of JonBenet must involve a real strangling occurring before the head bash IMO. There is just no getting around it.

 

[UKGuy]

-->>>The purpose was sorrow, trying to make things 'better'.
.

Camper,

So he/she focuses in on Jonbenet's genitals?

Whereas whilst she was alive JonBenet would request other people to wipe her down?

.

 

[Camper]

rashomon,

Why should John know JonBenet's body was lying in there?


.

-->>>Great question, made my head spin fer a minute. MAYBE he had seen it when he made that first quiet trip downstairs alone. OR?

IF as I posted some time before, PR hollered for JR then immediately headed for the phone to call 911, BEFORE JR had read the note, AND she made no mention of the threats to JonBenet if they talked to anyone. JR may have put one and one together and gotten a different total, hence the quiet trip to the basement BEFORE the body was 'officially' found.

IF their marriage was NOT the touchy feely type that mine was, it could have happened that way.

FOR me with a loving husband who lived breathed and was with me forever on every topic, WE would have discussed the matter fully before WE did anything given the circumstances outlined in the ransom note. WE would have read the note together totally - then decided what to do. EVEN though the morning was major traumatic WE would have been together in this misery.

.

 

[UKGuy]

-->>>Great question, made my head spin fer a minute. MAYBE he had seen it when he made that first quiet trip downstairs alone. OR?

IF as I posted some time before, PR hollered for JR then immediately headed for the phone to call 911, BEFORE JR had read the note, AND she made no mention of the threats to JonBenet if they talked to anyone. JR may have put one and one together and gotten a different total, hence the quiet trip to the basement BEFORE the body was 'officially' found.

IF their marriage was NOT the touchy feely type that mine was, it could have happened that way.

FOR me with a loving husband who lived breathed and was with me forever on every topic, WE would have discussed the matter fully before WE did anything given the circumstances outlined in the ransom note. WE would have read the note together totally - then decided what to do. EVEN though the morning was major traumatic WE would have been together in this misery.

.

Camper

There is the obvious question: Why should either spouse cover for the other, whilst possibly not even being aware of the full facts.

If JDI then Patsy stands to inherit his wealth, property etc.

If PDI then John can sympathetically divorce an unbalanced wife.

In colluding as a solitary individual each has more to lose than they gain by doing the right thing and reporting their suspicions.

So there must be more underlying the rationale for the killing of JonBenet, than spousal loyalty to explain away the staging?

.

 

[aussiesheila]

Detectives Thomas and Gosage recreated the scene in the wine cellar, with the same lighting conditions and a blanket put where JB's blanket was found. They stood at the doorstep where FW had stood: the windowless room was pitch-black and neither Gosage nor Thomas could see anything.
But since John knew JB's body was in there, he acted as if he had 'seen' her, although he stood at the exact same spot where FW had been before.

I don't know how dark or not dark it was when FW looked in the cellar. If it had just been anybody who looked in the wine cellar at the time FW said he did I would be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt and agree that it might have been too dark for them to see. It is quite possible that FW didn't see the body because it was too dark, although I don't happen to believe him. That aside I get really angry when people state that because FW said he didn't see the body when he looked then it wasn't there.

There are other possible explanations to his claiming not to have seen the body besides the explanation that the body was not there, and to repeat myself they are:

1. that the body was there but he didn't see it because it was too dark
2. that the body was there and he did see it and he lied when he said it wasn't there.

The fact that John did see her immediately he opened the door is an indication that possibility number 2 with respect to FW is the more likely IMO.

 

[aussiesheila]

Let's not forget the cord fibers found on her bed sheets.

And the dirt and lint on JonBenet's feet.

I'm not so sure the cord fibers were a perfect match to those on the bed sheets Toltec, weren't they just 'consistent with'?

As for the dirt and lint on JonBenet's feet, I think she picked it all up when she walked down the spiral stairs to the kitchen with one of the 'friendly' pedophiles and then later down to the basement with him.

 

[aussiesheila]

This scenario is in Steve Thomas book.

Seeker, Toltec,

this is what I stated in my post that started this line of argument

“After the patrol officers arrived in response to the emergency call it took another 2 hours before a detective was sent by John Eller - just one lone detective, and she was the only detective there for hours and hours, despite her calling repeatedly for backup, right up until after the body was found. When the FBI did arrive JE sent them away saying the BPD could manage the case themselves.”

I will admit that this was not strictly accurate but the point I was trying to make was that IMO John Eller's handling of the case was highly questionable and I suspect it was because he was shielding the pedophiles. At the time of the 911 call he was at home on leave. I have not been able to find out when he was 'officially' informed of the apparent kidnapping or when he arrived at police headquarters and took control of everything.

Sgt Bob Whitson was the on duty supervisor at the time of the 911 call and he paged four detectives who were assigned to the investigation. Only two were sent to the Ramsey house and they did not arrive until over 2 hours after the call. One of them left at 10.30 am along with the five officers who had arrived earlier in response to the 911, call leaving Arndt all alone. From 11:15 am onwards Arndt repeatedly called for backup but none ever arrived. Once the body was found at 1:10 pm however, a BPD detective arrived within 15 minutes.

The FBI were only belatedly called in after Pete Hofstrom, head of felony division of DA's office found out they hadn't been called and told the police they had to do that in the case of a kidnapping. I don't know which officer did eventually call them but I suspect it was not Eller. FBI agent Ron Walker went to police headquarters and did not go to the Ramsey home until after the body was found and he went at the invitation of Detective Sgt Larry Mason, not Eller.

Eller lost no time in making it clear to Mason that the FBI were no longer needed later that afternoon and by the next day he had dismissed them from the case.

Other strange actions that Eller took were to order officers at the scene to 'treat Ramseys as victims' so they did not secure the house or separate the Ramseys from everyone else, thus giving interested parties at the house the opportunity to tamper with any evidence they might choose.

He also wouldn't agree with Mason to use an air scent dog to try to find the body. Eller refused stating or implying that their own dogs were good enough. Why? I think this was because he knew the body was in the house, having been informed of this at 5 am by the mastermind, and knew that the dog would find it there which was not what the coverup plan required.

My source is PMPT so it and Thomas' book might differ on some of the 'facts'

 

[rashomon]

The fact that John did see her immediately he opened the door is an indication that possibility number 2 with respect to FW is the more likely IMO.

Is it really a 'fact' that John saw her? What if he knew she was in the wine cellar because he had put her there?

PMPT, p. 102:
White told the police he now remembered that when John pulled open the door to the wine cellar, he might have shouted "Oh my god, oh my God" a split second or so before he turned the lights.