The danger of a closed mind

[narlacat]

I don't know, guess so. In Thelmadawg's most interesting thread about a Texas Death Row inmate, Anthony Shore, it was established that he had a very high IQ, didn't leave evidence at any of his murder scenes, except DNA which finally got to CODIS, and I think it was a few years later.

Leaving the garrotte was, I guess, staging. He didn't leave DNA at the Ramsey scene that we know of, if he was there, as he did in later murders, so probably isn't the one, but someone could have been with him and together they could have done the staging and note writing. He'd worked for a phone co in Texas, SBTC, and someone said JR once worked for a phone co too, didn't say where. Just a tentative impression until we find out something for sure. You'll want to read the other thread. There are a number of points of similarity with this case.

Lost in a sea of suspects.
Why would the Ramsey's cover for someone like Shore?

 

[Paradox]

Patsy wrote in one of her Christmas letters that Burke was "quite the sailor" so I believe he was keen on different types of knots.

I believe Patsy was keen on hyperbole.

 

[Eagle1]

Lost in a sea of suspects.
Why would the Ramsey's cover for someone like Shore?

Don't know, unless they just don't know exactly who the killer is, or, he may be partners with someone rather powerful.

I never did see all of "The Jackal". Anyone know, was he a spy?

Possibly there really is one, and possibly JR knew him slightly somewhere, Texas or the Philippines (?) Just wild guessing fwiw.

 

[Seeker]

If I were a guessing person, I am guessing that Ms. Krebs is in 'a' room, in a locked facility being given soothing drugs each day.

No, she's still living in the same area that she was before she came forward.

Anyone remember how old she was when she came forth?

37

Also does anyone remember the name of the attorney that took her in, and gave her refuge at the time, because he BELIEVED HER?

.

Paranoid druggie, wife beater, and criminal fugative Walter Leon Hill a.k.a. Lee Hill.

 

[aussiesheila]

I don't think it is a waste of time but a crucial issue which should be discussed. Lou Smit came up with this stun gun stuff, but stun gun experts like Tuttle and Stratbucker disagreed. You said that the experts are divided - could you direct me to an expert's testimony who agreed with Smit?

As has been discussed here before, breath controlling is something done in (auto) erotic asphyxiation for the sexual pleasure (and with the willing consent!) of the person who is being asphyxiated. Not only would such a scenario rule out six-year-old JB as a willing participant, it also does not add up with the (staged imo) sexual assault scene where her vagina was injured with the paintbrush.

Re the knot on her neck:The problem with that knot is that although quite a few people on JB forums have tried to tie this knot, the knot each one got always differed from the knots the other posters got, lol.
The reason for this is that we (except Delmar England) are no rope experts. I'm going to ask him about that knot on FFJ.
For the knot on the neck is pivotal evidence: if it didn't slip, this would be the proof that the whole 'cord wrapped around around the paintbrush handle' contraption had no function at all and was done only for staging purposes. And staging would point to the parents.

No I can't rashomon, but IMO Lou Smit is no fool and I imagine he consulted stun gun experts who he hasn't named but who confirmed his opinion of the stun gun marks. Smit also discussed his idea with the coroner who performed the autopsy and he agreed with Smit that the marks could have been made by a stun gun. Some experts say 'yes' to the stun gun theory others say 'no'. The experts are divided. Even if the 'noes' outnumber the 'yeses' by 10 to one it doesn't mean the 'noes' are correct. I have seen the photos of the marks and the descriptions of their dimensions in the autopsy report and the stun gun theory is the best one as far as I can see to explain those marks.

I have never suggested the neck ligature was used for EA or AEA, or that JonBenet was a willing participant. IMO some abusers use a neck ligature either as a form of control or as a means of simulating an orgasmic-like response in the child for their own pleasure, most definitely not the child's.

I looked at the photo of the neck ligature and copied the knot. It was a very simple knot, and it was a 'noose' type knot as it turned out, it slipped along the cord easily. I don't know where you get the idea that Delmar England is an expert on knots. I know he claims to be but it doesn't mean that he is. Anyone can tie any type of knot if they have a diagram in front of them to copy.

 

[Jayelles]

No I can't rashomon, but IMO Lou Smit is no fool and I imagine he consulted stun gun experts who he hasn't named but who confirmed his opinion of the stun gun marks. Smit also discussed his idea with the coroner who performed the autopsy and he agreed with Smit that the marks could have been made by a stun gun. Some experts say 'yes' to the stun gun theory others say 'no'. The experts are divided. Even if the 'noes' outnumber the 'yeses' by 10 to one it doesn't mean the 'noes' are correct. I have seen the photos of the marks and the descriptions of their dimensions in the autopsy report and the stun gun theory is the best one as far as I can see to explain those marks.

I have never suggested the neck ligature was used for EA or AEA, or that JonBenet was a willing participant. IMO some abusers use a neck ligature either as a form of control or as a means of simulating an orgasmic-like response in the child for their own pleasure, most definitely not the child's.

I looked at the photo of the neck ligature and copied the knot. It was a very simple knot, and it was a 'noose' type knot as it turned out, it slipped along the cord easily. I don't know where you get the idea that Delmar England is an expert on knots. I know he claims to be but it doesn't mean that he is. Anyone can tie any type of knot if they have a diagram in front of them to copy.

Without any shadow of a doubt, Stratbucker is the expert on stunguns. His research and expertise on stunguns dates back to the 1980s and he has written many papers on the subject. Additionally, Stratbucker carried out extensive stungun testing on humans - as opposed to animals. One study involved the stungunning of a few dozen male police officers and he took photos of their "injuries" after minutes, hours and days had elapsed.

OTOH, the Ramsey stungun "expert" Doberson was the very same coroner who FAILED to recognise real stungun marks when he performed Gerald Bogg's autopsy.

Last night, the Trevor MacDonald Show was about domestic violence and it showed one battered wife's injuries. She had one mark which looked for all the world like the mark on jonBenet's cheek. It was caused by battery.

I was only half watching the programme, but the man who caused her injuries was called Philip Stone. I don't know if there is anything online about this case.

Stratbucker AND Spitz both said that in their expert opinion, the marks on jonbenet were not caused by a stungun and that they didn't even resemble stungun marks. Indeed, many people don't seem to realise that when photos of Gerald Boggs (genuine stungun victim) and JonBenet are compared for similarity, Bogg's body had been exhumed after 6 months! The marks on the original autopsy photo pf Boggs do NOT look like the marks on JonBenet.... but they DO look like the marks on the pig.

 

[Seeker]

And yes I think that someone was standing behind her doing the breath controlling.

I have never suggested the neck ligature was used for EA

Isn't that what you said, when you said someone was controlling her breathing? Why else would anyone need to be controlling her breathing if not for EA purposes?

No I can't rashomon, but IMO Lou Smit is no fool and I imagine he consulted stun gun experts who he hasn't named but who confirmed his opinion of the stun gun marks. Smit also discussed his idea with the coroner who performed the autopsy and he agreed with Smit that the marks could have been made by a stun gun.

Could you refresh my memory as to where it's stated that John Meyer discussed this theory with Lou Smit? Is it in PMPT?

I don't recall Smit ever saying he had consulted with stun gun experts either. Maybe he did, but he first claimed they were absolutely from a stun gun, then later he said he wasn't so sure...

 

[Toltec]

The JonBenet Ramsey murder became such a high profile case...in the news 24/7 that there was bound to be some sickos coming out of the woodwork. That is what Nancy Krebs did...place herself in the middle of this case that was being discussed daily in the media.

Someone else with another website did the same...going so far as to travel to Atlanta under the guise of "vacation" to meet the Ramseys.

People do this all the time with high profile cases.

 

[sissi]

The JonBenet Ramsey murder became such a high profile case...in the news 24/7 that there was bound to be some sickos coming out of the woodwork. That is what Nancy Krebs did...place herself in the middle of this case that was being discussed daily in the media.

Someone else with another website did the same...going so far as to travel to Atlanta under the guise of "vacation" to meet the Ramseys.

People do this all the time with high profile cases.

She presented her case out of concern for the then 8 yr old child that had been taken out of the states, the one she believed was at the White's party the night Jonbenet was murdered. She got swept up in an already botched investigation of the Jonbenet murder, however, she had ties to the Whites that were proven. The questioning ran the path of the Jonbenet investigation, she didn't write the script, she wanted her niece to be found and to be safe. IMO that's what I gathered. The child(5 at the time of the murder) told her "they killed a little girl and they will kill my hamster", wouldn't that send most of us to the authorities?

 

[Seeker]

sissi, yeah she was concerned for her niece. Who was her sister's kid and her sister lived in Germany....

She's a mentally ill woman who lives in a fantasy world that other people help her create by suggesting scenarios to her. She was used by those who thought she was the key to their notoriety.

 

[narlacat]

<<she had ties to the Whites that were proven.>>

Have you got a source Sissi?
I don't remember reading that..

 

[Seeker]

<<she had ties to the Whites that were proven.>>

Have you got a source Sissi?
I don't remember reading that..

Hi narla, not sissi, but FW Sr was her mother's god father. To prove her family had ties to the White's she stole photo's from her grandmother's photo album and had her "therapist" photo copy and fax them to Lee Hill. She also had a letter to her grandmother that she took to prove she knew the Whites. All she actually proved was that her grandmother knew them.

 

[narlacat]

Oh, thanks for that Seeker

 

[Seeker]

No problem narla...in fact you can get a lot more info from here
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=-1&f=224

Her original and disjointed interview with the BPD is transcribed and posted on the site....very informative, but some of us already knew all about this years before the file was recieved (thanks to Tricia for securing copies!)

Happy reading!

 

[Eagle1]

...

Last night, the Trevor MacDonald Show was about domestic violence and it showed one battered wife's injuries. She had one mark which looked for all the world like the mark on jonBenet's cheek. It was caused by battery.

The marks on the original autopsy photo pf Boggs do NOT look like the marks on JonBenet.... but they DO look like the marks on the pig.

Zeroing- in on just the last paragraph of the above quote, to simplify, Boggs' marks that had been buried 6 mo. resembled the fresh marks on pigs, but did not resemble the, fairly fresh, marks on JBR's body.

A different brand of stun gun was used on JBR? That's probably been answered. I didn't study the stun gun situation much.

 

[Jayelles]

Zeroing- in on just the last paragraph of the above quote, to simplify, Boggs' marks that had been buried 6 mo. resembled the fresh marks on pigs, but did not resemble the, fairly fresh, marks on JBR's body.

A different brand of stun gun was used on JBR? That's probably been answered. I didn't study the stun gun situation much.

NO! Absolutely the opposite of what I said.

"To simplify":-

There are two sets of photos of Boggs - his original autopsy and the exhumation autopsy 6 months later.

The marks on his body at the 6 month exhumation autopsy resembled the fresh marks on Jonbenet ...

the fresh marks on his body at the original autopsy resemble the marks on the pig.

i.e.

Boggs 6 month exhumation marks = fresh JonBenet marks
Boggs fresh autopsy marks = fresh pig stungun marks

Doberson (Ramsey expert) FAILED to recognise the stungun marks on Boggs at his original autopsy. Interestingly, the most ardent Ramsey defender in discussing this, said that she "couldn't recall" the name of the coroner who failed to identify stungun marks and would have to "check her records". There is no doubt that Doberson's expertise in stunguns is questionable. OTOH, Stratbucker's expertise is so renouwned that he was actually hired by Taser Corps to work for them as their medical advisor. Ironically, this fact was used by TeamRamsey to discredit him as an expert witness in the Wolf case. His testimony was challenged NOT because his expertise was questionable - but because of his business ties to Taser!

 

[Camper]

I was never able to get totally involved in the stun gun measurement debates early on about the marks on JonBenet.

BUT, I do remember that the R's had a video about 'a' stun gun, they had either received or picked up while 'shopping on vacation', as I recall. I ass-u-me that the PD may have in fact done finger print tests on the video box and tape, huh, ya think, nopey nope. Wonder IF it is still or ever was in the evidence collection?

I also wonder IF the body of a young child can ever be exhumed IF the parents do not give permission? Probably so, IF enough evidence is present or FOUND to lead authorities to do so.

EVEN IF an exhumation were done, and it was found to have actual stun gun marks on it, HOW would we ever prove WHO did it? HOW would this information move the case forward? Would the marks match up for the young guy that was found dead with high tech shoes and a stun gun, then what?

NOW then IF IF upon exhumation, the marks matched the video brand gun, AND AND if fiber content of the scarf that JR tucked around JonBenets neck in the casket matched the yet to be indentified evidence fibres matched, THEN we would have a ball game. JR was said by PR in the book DOI, to have recently purchased 'the' silk scarf he tucked around JonBenets neck in the casket. I even wonder IF the scarf were in fact silk, or some OTHER type of fabric that would tend to leave more fibre, WE donut know do WE, hmmm.

I do not remember 'what' brand of stun gun was covered on the 'monkey see monkey do' instruction video that the R's actually had. WE do know that the R's like to dis-remember stuff, or change tiny details about 'stuff'. Reason for my statement about 'that' is myself wondering about just WHO brought that video into the home?

I donut remember 'where' they were when they made the contact and were enabled to ultimately have the video.

I do recall that the mention of a stun gun, was NEW to my life. I cannot remember IF I had ever heard of stun guns prior to JonBonet's murder. Tell me IF stun guns were quite NEW in 1996, or had I just been living a sheltered life?

.

 

[Eagle1]

Camper's right that one of the books told us where the stun-gun ad video came from, but I for one can't remember which book.

Wouldn't it be nice if we had a number outline of each book someplace that we could refer to, all in one thread with no other comments, just text? ( I know, Dream on. Compiling such a summary would be an awful lot of work.)

I believe it's ST's that doesn't even have an index. I have to depend on notes I've scrawled in margins, and of course they're not very complete.

 

[rashomon]

I say she was standing on the chair, it's just that her arms were held outstretched above her head held by the wrist loops that were attached to some point overhead, either one of those overhead pipes or the overhead part of a door frame.

Held like this the wrist loops would have been under tension and unless JonBenet had some means of elevating her whole body she would not have been able to free her hands from those loops.

You may have to change your scenario, aussiesheila, if you look at the picture of JB in the link posted:
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceathouse.jpg

In that picture JB is in rigor mortis, the photo seems to have been taken when she was on the living room carpet. But it is interesting that her hands are not outstretched above her head like in that famous drawing, but bent at the elbow.

 

[aussiesheila]

You may have to change your scenario, aussiesheila, if you look at the picture of JB in the link posted:
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceathouse.jpg

In that picture JB is in rigor mortis, the photo seems to have been taken when she was on the living room carpet. But it is interesting that her hands are not outstretched above her head like in that famous drawing, but bent at the elbow.

When JonBenet's body was found by John she was in rigor mortis and her arms were outstretched above her head. I don't think you are correct about when and where that photo was taken. I think it was taken as part of the autopsy proceedings almost 24 hours after John found her. By then the rigor mortis had dissippated.