The danger of a closed mind

[Seeker]

When JonBenet's body was found by John she was in rigor mortis and her arms were outstretched above her head. I don't think you are correct about when and where that photo was taken. I think it was taken as part of the autopsy proceedings almost 24 hours after John found her. By then the rigor mortis had dissippated.

No it had not. Please read the autopsy report for confirmation.
The report also says her arms were extended, that does not mean outstretched above her head, but just that they were not down by her sides.

For facts about rigor mortis:

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/biochemistry/a/aa061903a.htm

Chemistry of Muscle Fibers
A few hours after a person or animal dies, the joints of the body stiffen and become locked in place. This stiffening is called rigor mortis. Depending on temperature and other conditions, rigor mortis lasts approximately 72 hours. The phenomenon is caused by the skeletal muscles partially contracting. The muscles are unable to relax, so the joints become fixed in place.

 

[Jayelles]

No it had not. Please read the autopsy report for confirmation.
The report also says her arms were extended, that does not mean outstretched above her head, but just that they were not down by her sides.

For facts about rigor mortis:

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/biochemistry/a/aa061903a.htm

In physiological terms, "arms extended" simply means straight/not bent.

 

[Seeker]

Well her arms were bent and she was still in rigor. Autopsy photo's, I believe, are taken in homicide investigations without the body being changed in any way. I could be wrong...

Didn't Arndt say that JB looked like she was sleeping? If you didn't know she was dead you might think she was asleep if turned onto her stomache? I swear I read that somewhere...

 

[rashomon]

I looked at the photo of the neck ligature and copied the knot. It was a very simple knot, and it was a 'noose' type knot as it turned out, it slipped along the cord easily.

Did you actually tie the longer end around a handle multiple times? For this was also part of the contraption. And a slip knot is in fact not pulled tight if you wrap the cord around the handle multiple times and pull at it, at least it wasn't pulled tight when I tried to tie the noose type knot. The only way to pull this knot tight around an object was when I pulled at both ends of the cord. Therefore wrapping the cord around the handle was in fact useless because it did not serve the purpose of pulling the knot so tight that it wouldn't slip anymore.

 

[aussiesheila]

No it had not. Please read the autopsy report for confirmation.
The report also says her arms were extended, that does not mean outstretched above her head, but just that they were not down by her sides.

For facts about rigor mortis:

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/biochemistry/a/aa061903a.htm

The autopsy report states "At the time of the initiation of the autopsy there is mild 1 to 2+ rigor mortis of the elbows and shoulders with more advanced 2 to 3+ rigor mortis of the joints of the lower extremeties."

According to Wikipedia - Rigor usually sets in about 3 - 4 hours after clinical death, with full rigor being in effect at about 12 hours, and eventually subsiding to relaxation at about 36 hours.

It seemed to me that at the time the autopsy was begun the rigor had begun to subside sufficiently for JonBenet's elbows and shoulder joints to have bent somewhat as shown in the autopsy photo.

 

[aussiesheila]

Did you actually tie the longer end around a handle multiple times? For this was also part of the contraption. And a slip knot is in fact not pulled tight if you wrap the cord around the handle multiple times and pull at it, at least it wasn't pulled tight when I tried to tie the noose type knot. The only way to pull this knot tight around an object was when I pulled at both ends of the cord. Therefore wrapping the cord around the handle was in fact useless because it did not serve the purpose of pulling the knot so tight that it wouldn't slip anymore.

I think there is a special way of winding or tying the cord around the stick so that it doesn't slip but I don't know how to do it.

 

[aussiesheila]

Well her arms were bent and she was still in rigor. Autopsy photo's, I believe, are taken in homicide investig
??K?0 body being changed in any way. I could be wrong...

Didn't Arndt say that JB looked like she was sleeping? If you didn't know she was dead you might think she was asleep if turned onto her stomache? I swear I read that somewhere...

I think the body was in full rigor when Meyer came to the house on the 26th to inspect it. He described the state it was in at that time in his report "The decedent was found to be lying on her back with her arms extended up over her head. The head was turned to the right."

 

[Seeker]

Either way she would still have been in full rigor (even at mild 1-2+ rigor the joints are fixed) by the time Meyer began the autopsy. If there had been any changes noted to the position of the body from the initial examination it should and probably would have been noted.

Also noting from the autopsy report-

DEATH D/T: 12/26/96 @ 1323 AGE: 6Y AUTOPSY D/T: 12/27/96 @ 0815

If you believe that JonBenet was killed at 1-2am on 12-26 (btw 1323 on 12/26 was after her body was brought up from the basement by John ) and the autopsy was performed at 0815 on 12/27 that is less than 36 hours.

Rigor mortis is excellerated in warm temperatures and slowed in cooler temps. Once her body was taken to the coroner's office (approximately 8:30PM on 12/26/96) it would have been placed in refridgeration until the autopsy the next morning...IOW she would have been in less than 24 hour rigor by the time her body was refridgerated and stayed darned close to full by the time they took her out to perform the autopsy.

Also the artist rendition of JB's body on the floor of the Ramsey house was based in part from Arndt's description.
Linda Arndt described JB's body as, "She looked like she was sleeping." If her arms were fully extended up over her head I don't think anyone would have said she looked like she was sleeping....IMO.

 

[rashomon]

Either way she would still have been in full rigor (even at mild 1-2+ rigor the joints are fixed) by the time Meyer began the autopsy. If there had been any changes noted to the position of the body from the initial examination it should and probably would have been noted.

Also noting from the autopsy report-

DEATH D/T: 12/26/96 @ 1323 AGE: 6Y AUTOPSY D/T: 12/27/96 @ 0815

If you believe that JonBenet was killed at 1-2am on 12-26 (btw 1323 on 12/26 was after her body was brought up from the basement by John ) and the autopsy was performed at 0815 on 12/27 that is less than 36 hours.

Rigor mortis is excellerated in warm temperatures and slowed in cooler temps. Once her body was taken to the coroner's office (approximately 8:30PM on 12/26/96) it would have been placed in refridgeration until the autopsy the next morning...IOW she would have been in less than 24 hour rigor by the time her body was refridgerated and stayed darned close to full by the time they took her out to perform the autopsy.

Also the artist rendition of JB's body on the floor of the Ramsey house was based in part from Arndt's description.
Linda Arndt described JB's body as, "She looked like she was sleeping." If her arms were fully extended up over her head I don't think anyone would have said she looked like she was sleeping....IMO.

Excellent points, Seeker!

 

[Toltec]

You may have to change your scenario, aussiesheila, if you look at the picture of JB in the link posted:
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceathouse.jpg

In that picture JB is in rigor mortis, the photo seems to have been taken when she was on the living room carpet. But it is interesting that her hands are not outstretched above her head like in that famous drawing, but bent at the elbow.

It was John who said it looked like JonBenet was sleeping...

John also said her head was tilted to the right. In this picture her head is tilted to her left. How did that change?

 

[aussiesheila]

It was John who said it looked like JonBenet was sleeping...

John also said her head was tilted to the right. In this picture her head is tilted to her left. How did that change?

rigor dissipated?

 

[aussiesheila]

Either way she would still have been in full rigor (even at mild 1-2+ rigor the joints are fixed) by the time Meyer began the autopsy. If there had been any changes noted to the position of the body from the initial examination it should and probably would have been noted.

Also noting from the autopsy report-

DEATH D/T: 12/26/96 @ 1323 AGE: 6Y AUTOPSY D/T: 12/27/96 @ 0815

If you believe that JonBenet was killed at 1-2am on 12-26 (btw 1323 on 12/26 was after her body was brought up from the basement by John ) and the autopsy was performed at 0815 on 12/27 that is less than 36 hours.

Rigor mortis is excellerated in warm temperatures and slowed in cooler temps. Once her body was taken to the coroner's office (approximately 8:30PM on 12/26/96) it would have been placed in refridgeration until the autopsy the next morning...IOW she would have been in less than 24 hour rigor by the time her body was refridgerated and stayed darned close to full by the time they took her out to perform the autopsy.

Also the artist rendition of JB's body on the floor of the Ramsey house was based in part from Arndt's description.
Linda Arndt described JB's body as, "She looked like she was sleeping." If her arms were fully extended up over her head I don't think anyone would have said she looked like she was sleeping....IMO.

If you go by what is stated in Wikipedia full rigor would have been at 2 pm on the 26th (assuming she died at at 2 am the night before) and would have fully subsided 36 hours after death which would have been at 2pm on the 27th.

The autopsy was begun at 8:15 am on the 27th or 30 hours after death so the rigor would have been subsiding for the previous 18 hours and would have been 50% gone IMO which concurs with what the coroner stated with respect to the elbows and shoulders that there was mild 1 to 2+ (assuming that is on a scale of 1 to 5) rigor present.

This discussion began because rashomon said that my theory that JonBenet was killed while she was standing on a chair with her arms outstretched above her head because the loops around her wrists were holding the arms in that position by the cord being hooked up to some point of attachment on the doorframe or one of the overhead pipes.

I do not think this destroys my theory at all. I think that the perpetrators unhooked the cord almost immediately and placed her body on it's back on the floor with the arms still outstretched above her head. Once her arms had been released from the tension they would have relaxed slightly and the elbows would have bent a little. It was in this position with her head fallen to the right that the rigor and livor mortis developed. This is all totally consistent with all available evidence.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

rigor dissipated?

Sometimes when a picture is printed (or whatever it's called), they turn it around. I noticed this back when I was younger - one picture of my favorite star would have him turned to the left, and in another magazine, the same exact picture would be there, only he was facing to the right this time. It had just been flipped over.

 

[rashomon]

Sometimes when a picture is printed (or whatever it's called), they turn it around. I noticed this back when I was younger - one picture of my favorite star would have him turned to the left, and in another magazine, the same exact picture would be there, only he was facing to the right this time. It had just been flipped over.

Too bad the numbers on the ruler are to small to read in the photo, for in flipped over pictures, letters and numbers would appear reversed in 'mirror image'.
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceathouse.jpg

But I don't think the photo is flipped over, because JB actually had one wound beneath her right ear, and we can see this wound in the picture.

I just read in another forum that at a crime scene, after the body has been photographed from several angles (head to feet, feet to head, right side, left side, straight down from above), close-ups are then taken of any wounds, ligature marks, bite marks, or bruises, and most photos are taken with a scale for accurate measurement. So the photo shown was in all probability taken at the crime scene.
It seems that the artist who made the drawing let himself be misdirected by the coroner's words that JB's armes were extended above her body. Maybe Dr. Meyer meant that when he saw JB lying on her back, her arms in rigor were stretched out 'above' her body, showing toward the ceiling.

I have a question: that shirt we can see in the picture seems quite big. Could this be the Colorado Avalanche sweatshirt which was placed over her body in the living room?

 

[Seeker]

If you go by what is stated in Wikipedia full rigor would have been at 2 pm on the 26th (assuming she died at at 2 am the night before) and would have fully subsided 36 hours after death which would have been at 2pm on the 27th.

The autopsy was begun at 8:15 am on the 27th or 30 hours after death so the rigor would have been subsiding for the previous 18 hours and would have been 50% gone IMO which concurs with what the coroner stated with respect to the elbows and shoulders that there was mild 1 to 2+ (assuming that is on a scale of 1 to 5) rigor present.

No thanks, I'll go with 4 years experience working in a Pathology lab. Once a body is placed into the cooler rigor is substantially slowed, IMO she would have still been in almost, if not full, rigor. Info at the link you provided it also states "Assuming mild temperatures, rigor usually sets in about 3-4 hours after clinical death, with full rigor being in effect at about 12 hours, and eventually subsiding to relaxation at about 36 hours. Times for the onset of rigor mortis can vary from a few minutes to several hours depending on the temperature of the environment in which the body is found."

In warm temperature's the process is excelerated, in cool temps it's slowed. Reverse rigor doesn't start until 18 to 36 hours after death depending on circumstances. Rigor is usually completely gone in 48-60 hours depending on temps and circumstances (i.e. was the body left where it was the entire time, was it exposed to weather, etc).

A call to your local coroner's office might be more informative than what I've posted. I often know what I want to say, but not how to say/post it.

 

[rashomon]

[Seeker] No thanks, I'll go with 4 years experience working in a Pathology lab. Once a body is placed into the cooler rigor is substantially slowed, IMO she would have still been in almost, if not full, rigor.

Seeker:Thanks so much for your input, your medical experience in that field is much appreciated.
Therefore according to the info you have provided, can we draw the conclusion that in the picture shown in the link below, JB was in full rigor mortis, no matter if that picture was taken while she was still in her home on the living room carpet, or already at the autopsy?

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceathouse.jpg

In all probability this picture was taken in her home because at a crime scene, after the body has been photographed from several angles, close-ups are then taken of any wounds, ligature marks, bite marks, or bruises, and most photos are taken with a scale for accurate measurement.

 

[aussiesheila]

No thanks, I'll go with 4 years experience working in a Pathology lab. Once a body is placed into the cooler rigor is substantially slowed, IMO she would have still been in almost, if not full, rigor. Info at the link you provided it also states "Assuming mild temperatures, rigor usually sets in about 3-4 hours after clinical death, with full rigor being in effect at about 12 hours, and eventually subsiding to relaxation at about 36 hours. Times for the onset of rigor mortis can vary from a few minutes to several hours depending on the temperature of the environment in which the body is found."

In warm temperature's the process is excelerated, in cool temps it's slowed. Reverse rigor doesn't start until 18 to 36 hours after death depending on circumstances. Rigor is usually completely gone in 48-60 hours depending on temps and circumstances (i.e. was the body left where it was the entire time, was it exposed to weather, etc).

A call to your local coroner's office might be more informative than what I've posted. I often know what I want to say, but not how to say/post it.

Well your assessment might be more correct than mine Seeker. I'm not sure that it matters all that much to what I was saying about the position JonBenet was in when she was killed which is where this whole discussion about rigor mortis started. I happen to think she was in a standing position with her arms tied and held straight and outstretched above her head at the moment she was killed. I think that after she was killed her arms were freed and she was laid on her back on the floor where her arms remained above her head but bent at the elbows and her head fell tilted to the right. I think the body went into and out of rigor in this position, the lengths of times of each phase are debatable, I agree.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I happen to think she was in a standing position with her arms tied and held straight and outstretched above her head at the moment she was killed.

I still think it's going to be pretty difficult to molest a child in a standing position. She would be needing her legs to stand on, to hold her weight up, especially if her hands are restrained above her head. Do you really think the cord that was so loosely tied around her wrists, over her sleeve, was sufficient to keep her in a restrained position? There are no injuries or bruises on her wrists to indicate they were ever restarined while she was alive.

And what is this ring of pedophiles doing while she's being killed, just standing there watching her standing there being strangled?

 

[aussiesheila]

I think I missed replying to this post

I still think it's going to be pretty difficult to molest a child in a standing position. She would be needing her legs to stand on, to hold her weight up, especially if her hands are restrained above her head. Do you really think the cord that was so loosely tied around her wrists, over her sleeve, was sufficient to keep her in a restrained position? There are no injuries or bruises on her wrists to indicate they were ever restarined while she was alive.

And I covered the above in reply to one of your later posts.

And what is this ring of pedophiles doing while she's being killed, just standing there watching her standing there being strangled?

One operating the stungun, one manipulating the ligature, one doing the 'hands on' bit and any extras just enjoying the show. That's what I think the ring of pedophiles were doing in the leadup to her killing.

I don't the killing took more than a few moments. I think the one whose turn it was to do the 'hands on' stuff decided to stick a paintbrush handle up her vagina, the poor child let out a horrific scream which was heard by a neighbour across the street, and also by Patsy, I believe. The one operating the ligature panicked and pulled it too tight, the one who had just used the paintbrush handle picked up a baseball bat and bashed her over the head IMO.

 

[BBB167893]

All the while she's being restrained by wrist ties so loose they can just slip off? Hardly.