The Eighth Pair of Underwear

[UKGuy]

Good point about the fibers sissi. However, I doubt if JonBenet would have worn oversized WHITE panties under tight black velvet slacks (the size 12/14's were white). Wouldn't the white tend to show through the black a little bit, causing the slacks to appear to be two shades of black? It seems she would have worn black panties under black slacks.

Also, if she had worn black underwear and they are missing, I wonder if her underwear was the missing wipedown cloth that left the mysterious black fibers on her inner thighs and folds of her labia.

BlueCrab

Interesting thought BlueCrab. The manufacturers of her underwear could confirm if they were sold including a black pair, and by comparing fibers from the clean pairs determine the probability the black fibers were sourced from the missing underwear.

 

[Zman]

UKGuy,

You are correct. There would be two pairs of JonBenet's size six underwear missing. The most likely place to look, of course, would have been the laundry basket in the basement because the Ramseys didn't use clothes hampers; there were clothes chutes upstairs that emptied into the basement.

But the critical pair of underwear to examine is the pair she wore to the Whites and was likely wearing when murdered. There's never been any word of the cops recovering them and sending them to the CBI's forensic lab.

Oh no! Now there's two pair of underwear missing? Where are the one's she had on the day before Christmas? Maybe there the same one's.

I'm thinking all of JBR's underwear were tested and my guess is nothing "unusual" was found.

Is this now a fact like the rumored "enhanced 911 call" we have never heard.

And believe me kids like the floor for dirty clothes. Hampers and laundry shoots are invisible. As a little experiment I just went to my daughters hamper and room to gather some laundry. I'll tell you I'd be hard pressed to tell you which underwear from the floor or the hamper she had on at any perticular time. I'll bet even LE could not determine the order in which JBR's dirty underware were worn. No matter how many they found.

 

[capps]

Good point about the fibers sissi. However, I doubt if JonBenet would have worn oversized WHITE panties under tight black velvet slacks (the size 12/14's were white). Wouldn't the white tend to show through the black a little bit, causing the slacks to appear to be two shades of black? It seems she would have worn black panties under black slacks.

Also, if she had worn black underwear and they are missing, I wonder if her underwear was the missing wipedown cloth that left the mysterious black fibers on her inner thighs and folds of her labia.

BlueCrab

Isn't it rare to find black panties in little girl's size 6? If the pants JB were wearing were heavier velvet pants,I don't think white panties would show through.

IMO the panties JB was wearing when she changed from the jeans on the floor,are the same panties she had on at the White's party.

What happened to these panties,we don't know. Either the LE has them,or the molester either hid them or took the panties with him.

 

[Cupiedoo]

Hi Everyone ~ I find all of your comments so very interesting. My thoughts are:

JBR had an accident in her jeans on Christmas day. Unfortunatley, it has been difficult to discern whether the soiled panties were entwined with the jeans on the floor, as I don't believe we have seen a picture.

When dressing for the White's party, I wonder if JBR wore a pull-up with the size 12 panties over the top, then her tights, then the black velvet pants? Yes, it would be a little bulky, but the tights would help a bit, and it's better to have pants that are a little bulky, than to have an accident at a party. JBR may have removed the soiled pull-ups at the White's house which just left her with the size 12 panties. Wasn't there a stash of pull-ups found somewhere in JBR's bedroom or bathroom?

Cupiedoo

 

[BlueCrab]

Hi Everyone ~ I find all of your comments so very interesting. My thoughts are:

JBR had an accident in her jeans on Christmas day. Unfortunatley, it has been difficult to discern whether the soiled panties were entwined with the jeans on the floor, as I don't believe we have seen a picture.

When dressing for the White's party, I wonder if JBR wore a pull-up with the size 12 panties over the top, then her tights, then the black velvet pants? Yes, it would be a little bulky, but the tights would help a bit, and it's better to have pants that are a little bulky, than to have an accident at a party. JBR may have removed the soiled pull-ups at the White's house which just left her with the size 12 panties. Wasn't there a stash of pull-ups found somewhere in JBR's bedroom or bathroom?

Cupiedoo

Welcome Cupiedoo,

Yes, the scenario you paint is possible, but why wear tights under the black velvet slacks, which were also tight-fitting? The pull-ups, incidentally, were stored in a cabinet in the common area just outside of JonBenet's bedroom.

 

[Cupiedoo]

It is common for girls to wear tights under pants, tight or not, when it's cold outside. Keeps 'em toasty warm when going from house to car, etc. For some reason I thought I had read that she DID wear tights that night...but perhaps I am mistaken. : )

 

[tipper]

It is common for girls to wear tights under pants, tight or not, when it's cold outside. Keeps 'em toasty warm when going from house to car, etc. For some reason I thought I had read that she DID wear tights that night...but perhaps I am mistaken. : )

That's my impression too but she wasn't found in tights and I can't recall specifically Patsy saying anything about removing her pants and tights when she undressed her.

 

[sissi]

Good point about the fibers sissi. However, I doubt if JonBenet would have worn oversized WHITE panties under tight black velvet slacks (the size 12/14's were white). Wouldn't the white tend to show through the black a little bit, causing the slacks to appear to be two shades of black? It seems she would have worn black panties under black slacks.

Also, if she had worn black underwear and they are missing, I wonder if her underwear was the missing wipedown cloth that left the mysterious black fibers on her inner thighs and folds of her labia.

BlueCrab

The panties were floral, and likely the mysterious black fibers were from her velvet pants.JMO

 

[MissMommie]

I am new to WS and this my first post, so please forgive my ignorance before I start. I don't shop at Bloomingdale's but I have 15 and 10 yr old daughters and have never seen black panties in little girl sizes. And yes, when they were each six, they begged for panties with the days of the week on them.

If PR put JB to bed dressed and undressed her in the bed, more than likely the 12/14 panties would have come off with the tights and/or pants when she pulled them down and PR should have noticed that. I would have, especially if she were not supposed to have them yet.

Were there only one pair of panties with DNA on them? and was it the 12/14's? If there were only one, and the 12/14's had the male dna on them AND they were "fresh/clean" then the dna could not have come from various toilets as Camper believes. (Camper, I do agree with your idea of dna getting on her panties from the toilets she may have used, but only if the panties that she wore to the party are the same ones that were found on her after her death.) It would mean transfer from the toilets to the panties to JB then to another pair of panties? That's alot of transfer!!! (I'm not a journalist, lol)

Depending on how long the shirt was that JB worn with the velvet pants, no one may have noticed the bulkiness of her pants. Plus, girls panties are not very thick. Besides, before leaving to go to a party or church or wherever, wouldn't PR have checked out how JB looked? If she noticed anything amiss with pants being bulky, more than likely PR would have made her change. When my 10 yr old started trying to wear my 15 yr old's training bras, when she was about 7, to church, I would make her go take it off. Even if we were running late.

If JB did not bathe on the 25th, more than likely she didn't change her panties, unless she soiled them. But she might have changed them if she wanted to wear the 12/14's with her Christmas outfit to make it more special and feel more grown up.

I don't know who I think did it, I keep changing my mind as I read more on this site.

Thanks for listening!!

 

[tipper]

I am new to WS and this my first post, so please forgive my ignorance before I start. I don't shop at Bloomingdale's but I have 15 and 10 yr old daughters and have never seen black panties in little girl sizes. And yes, when they were each six, they begged for panties with the days of the week on them.

If PR put JB to bed dressed and undressed her in the bed, more than likely the 12/14 panties would have come off with the tights and/or pants when she pulled them down and PR should have noticed that. I would have, especially if she were not supposed to have them yet.

Were there only one pair of panties with DNA on them? and was it the 12/14's? If there were only one, and the 12/14's had the male dna on them AND they were "fresh/clean" then the dna could not have come from various toilets as Camper believes. (Camper, I do agree with your idea of dna getting on her panties from the toilets she may have used, but only if the panties that she wore to the party are the same ones that were found on her after her death.) It would mean transfer from the toilets to the panties to JB then to another pair of panties? That's alot of transfer!!! (I'm not a journalist, lol)

Depending on how long the shirt was that JB worn with the velvet pants, no one may have noticed the bulkiness of her pants. Plus, girls panties are not very thick. Besides, before leaving to go to a party or church or wherever, wouldn't PR have checked out how JB looked? If she noticed anything amiss with pants being bulky, more than likely PR would have made her change. When my 10 yr old started trying to wear my 15 yr old's training bras, when she was about 7, to church, I would make her go take it off. Even if we were running late.

If JB did not bathe on the 25th, more than likely she didn't change her panties, unless she soiled them. But she might have changed them if she wanted to wear the 12/14's with her Christmas outfit to make it more special and feel more grown up.

I don't know who I think did it, I keep changing my mind as I read more on this site.

Thanks for listening!!

Good points. ALso there is quite a weight range within sizes so I'm not sure they would have been all that bulky. With an elasticized waist they probably stayed up quite nicely.

I'm not sure there is a matter of whether or not JonBenet was "supposed" to have the underpants yet. They had been bought for a niece? and were never sent so JonBenet appropriated them. Patsy wasn't exactly a strict parent and didn't appear to have a problem with that.

I've never seen black underpants for children either.

JonBenet was learning to read printed words so she probably knew which pair she should put on. My recollection of kindergarten is in addition to sounding out words they also teach days of the week and months of the year.

 

[MissMommie]

I don't recall on which thread, but I remember someone saying that Patsy said they were for when "she was a big girl", but that could have been speculation.

 

[tipper]

She talks about them in one of the interviews and that "big girl" statement sounds familiar. But my recollection is she was pretty casual about JonBenet using them. Kind of "oh, well."

 

[UKGuy]

Athough patsy says she cannot remember bathing or dressing JonBenet prior to leaving for the Whites. Patsy does state she and JonBenet fell out over what she should wear, so we can assume she did to some unknown extent oversee what JonBenet was wearing, and if the red turtleneck was contentious, I cannot see patsy allowing JonBenet to wear oversize underwear, not for a dinner party visit!

So unless JonBenet had an accident and secretly wore the size-12's to the Whites, its likely the reason she is wearing them is that the person who redressed her in the size-12's did it deliberately, possibly as a form of defensive staging.

Since most of JonBenet's underclothes were in the bathroom in allotted drawers, there is no reason not to go and select a pair of size-6's. To some extent we would be none the wiser if this had occurred.

If you think over the crime-scene or the house , even after it had been cleaned up somewhat, there is an air of disorder e.g. the long underwear pants hanging out of the cupboard, hair ties strewn over the JonBenet's bedroom floor, soiled jeans lying on the bathroom floor, bags of clothing lying about, her barbie nightgown lying, out of context, next to her dead body.

In general the rest of the crime-scene has been cleaned up, but these untidy elements suggest that she was redressed upstairs, but in a hurry, possibly her hair was re-styled, why this would be required I am not certain, but it seems somebody thought it appropriate, this same person or another found the size-12 underwear which was in her bedroom, and redressed JonBenet, followed by her long underwear pants. Either she had changed into her red turtleneck and jeans on returning from the Whites, and her white Gap top was placed back on her for consistencies sake, or it was never removed.

The person(s) who did this then sanitized the crime-scene upstairs, and removed some items down into the basement including JonBenet's body possibly wrapped in JAR's blanket to avoid cross contamination.

Later this would be revised to include the white blanket from JonBenet's bed, and JAR's blanket would be deposited in the blue suitcase, along with the story book. Another addition would be her Barbie Nightgown as she is intended to be displayed as the victim of a brutal bedtime abduction and lust murder.

Now the person who selected the size-12 underwear had an eye to detail, since they chose a Wednesday pair, but when JonBenet was redressed in those panties it was likely Thursday December the 26th. It would have been much more indeterminate if they had chosen any day except a Wednesday or a Thursday, for some reason it must be the Wednesday pair and that they were oversized was not an issue.

 

[tipper]

Athough patsy says she cannot remember bathing or dressing JonBenet prior to leaving for the Whites. Patsy does state she and JonBenet fell out over what she should wear, so we can assume she did to some unknown extent oversee what JonBenet was wearing, and if the red turtleneck was contentious, I cannot see patsy allowing JonBenet to wear oversize underwear, not for a dinner party visit!

[...]

Or she sent JonBenet off to get dressed for the party. JonBenet returns wearing the black pants and vest with the white sequin shirt. Patsy says 'No wear the red one" They go back and forth a few times and Patsy say "Okay, fine wear the white one." JonBenet goes to the Whites wearing the white shirt and Wednesday panties which she picked out when she was putting on the black pants and vest and Patsy never saw.

 

[Camper]

Any mother who could not remember whether her six year old had a bath before going to a party is so far out that I quiver and quake with disbelief. There was just one tiny girl for heavens sake. I had eight children, five girls and three boys and WE went to parties. My family always presented a nice appearance and were neat and tidy in their best bib and tucker.

How about WE are going to get ready now for the party, I am wearing my red sweater and I want you to wear your red shirt. WE can dress just alike and that will be so cool er, huh, duh.

Noooooooo mother, I want to wear my white shirt with the star on it. Noooooooooo JonBenet, wear the red one, so you can be a big girl just like mommy. Noooooooooooo, IF you want me to be a big girl, I want to wear the big girl panties. Noooooooooo JonBenet you are not old enough yet. How far this negotiating difference might have lasted or how involved it was WE donut know. I suspect it became quite vociferous.

I can see one of the two of them, destroying the ability of the red sweater to be worn by mucking it up. I believe that JonBenet could or would have ended up wearing the white shirt with the star on it. PLUS JonBenet most likely in my opinion, got the big girl panties out anyway and put them on.

Boy oh boy would I love to see pictures of JonBenet at the Whites party.


,

 

[capps]

Boy oh boy would I love to see pictures of JonBenet at the Whites party.

Camper,

Isn't that the truth! I think we all would!

 

[aussiesheila]

All seven of the size 12/14 underwear are accounted for (six pair still in the package and one pair on JonBenet)

Bluecrab,

I have not come across this in any of my reading. Can you please tell me where you came across the information that there was a package found with 6 pairs of 12/14 underwear still in it? Thanks

 

[aussiesheila]

BlueCrab

I think there was blood and saliva found on the size 12 panties the body was wearing.

I think you say the panties were placed on the body after death so you must think the stains got on the panties after death

Can you please elaborate a bit further on why you think this.

This is not a hostile question. Please I am interested to know

 

[Zman]

Any mother who could not remember whether her six year old had a bath before going to a party is so far out that I quiver and quake with disbelief.

Boy oh boy would I love to see pictures of JonBenet at the Whites party.


,

Really? Even several months later? Where any of your kids brutally murdered? Where you accused of the crime or under suspicion? Have to listen to your lawyer? Medicated to help the incredible pain and anguish?
See all Know all? I'll bet your kids have some stories you may have missed.

 

[tipper]

[...]
I can see one of the two of them, destroying the ability of the red sweater to be worn by mucking it up. I believe that JonBenet could or would have ended up wearing the white shirt with the star on it. PLUS JonBenet most likely in my opinion, got the big girl panties out anyway and put them on.

Boy oh boy would I love to see pictures of JonBenet at the Whites party.


,

How do you think they could 'muck up' the sweater so it couldn't be worn and what do you think the pictures will reveal?