The Incinerator #2

[Carli]

With the burnt marks on the ground in the field where the neighbour reported seeing the incinerator earlier (Friday), I am believing DM and MS poured chemicals from one of the drums into the incinerator with TB, as an accelerate instead of using the propane (possibly out of propane), and this was why TB's body was not reduced to mere ashes.

Please forgive my forshortening and refocusing of your post but it includes a statement that continues to befuddle me. Perhaps, somewhere <modsnip> I've missed out on an essential link - namely the one that confirms more evidence of TB's body than just ashes were ever found. If a more intact body WAS found, do you know why these remains not provided to the Bosma family for burial? Why were only ashes given to SB? I've ALWAYS been under the impression that only ashes were found (actually too many ashes for a single human being, we were told at one point) but would be happy to be corrected on this point if possible. Thanks.

 

[Archangel7]

Just a guess, but I would think the waste had to be removed prior to any new hangar leasee. And/or they planned on covertly getting rid of the contents of the drums via a "fuel oil" type burner in the incinerator. If they seriously thought they could pour Jet A or JP4 into an operating incinerator, they are lucky they are in jail. The alterative would likely have been a Darwin Award.……posthumously of course.

 

[Snoofo]

Yes I am thinking those barrels are from Pearson, moved to the farm temporarily until they could figure out a cheap way to dispose of them. Perhaps the traditional options at the airport were too costly. Hazardous waste removal cannot possibly come cheap! Maybe they were hoping to dig an underground fuel storage tank?

 

[SnooperDuper]

Yes I am thinking those barrels are from Pearson, moved to the farm temporarily until they could figure out a cheap way to dispose of them. Perhaps the traditional options at the airport were too costly. Hazardous waste removal cannot possibly come cheap! Maybe they were hoping to dig an underground fuel storage tank?

Or they are hanging on to them because the contents are still good/worth $$$.

Did DM have the farm when the Pearson hanger closed down?

 

[dizzy1]

Please forgive my forshortening and refocusing of your post but it includes a statement that continues to befuddle me. Perhaps, somewhere <modsnip> I've missed out on an essential link - namely the one that confirms more evidence of TB's body than just ashes were ever found. If a more intact body WAS found, do you know why these remains not provided to the Bosma family for burial? Why were only ashes given to SB? I've ALWAYS been under the impression that only ashes were found (actually too many ashes for a single human being, we were told at one point) but would be happy to be corrected on this point if possible. Thanks.

BBM
IMO, the coroner would not release the body directly to SB, it would be released to the funeral home. SB most likely chose to have TB's remains cremated, because the murderers left her no other option, as his body had been so badly desecrated.

When will the body be released for our viewing?
When a body is sent for an autopsy, the body cannot be viewed until AFTER the autopsy has been completed. Please arrange to have a funeral home transfer your loved one’s body to the funeral home for viewing, after the autopsy has been completed. In most circumstances, the body is released immediately after the autopsy is completed. You do not need to call the Coroner to obtain information regarding the release of your loved one’s body. The funeral home will contact the hospital directly to determine time of release for the body and inform you accordingly.

http://www.coroner-york.com/insurance.html

UBM
I believe this is the article you're referring to:

Despite suggestions the volume of charred material recovered exceeded what would be expected from a man of Mr. Bosma’s size, there is no evidence of additional victims, police said.

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/ne...from-property-of-suspect-in-tim-bosmas-murder
JMO, but they refer to it as "charred material", not necessarily "ashes".

charred (t&#643;&#593;&#720;d)

Definitions
adjective

burnt and blackened &#8658; charred bodies &#8658; the charred remains of a tank

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/charred

MOO:moo:

 

[SnooperDuper]

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/charred

I think LE has been using remains, burnt remains consistently...and it is the media that is tiring of writing that and coming up with what they think are synonyms (no one really knows the situation other than LE). So I wouldn't put too much weight on the word charred. All we know for fact is the somewhat ambiguous, burnt beyond all recognition/burnt remains. moo.

 

[MsSherlock]

BBM
IMO, the coroner would not release the body directly to SB, it would be released to the funeral home. SB most likely chose to have TB's remains cremated, because the murderers left her no other option, as his body had been so badly desecrated.

http://www.coroner-york.com/insurance.html

UBM
I believe this is the article you're referring to:

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/ne...from-property-of-suspect-in-tim-bosmas-murder
JMO, but they refer to it as "charred material", not necessarily "ashes".

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/charred

MOO:moo:

Thanks Dizzy-IMO the following quote from your post say's it all

Despite suggestions the volume of charred material recovered exceeded what would be expected from a man of Mr. Bosma’s size, there is no evidence of additional victims, police said.

Charred material leads me to believe that it wasn't a body. IMO, "Volume" would indicate something that could be measured by pouring it into something, whereas a body would be measured and/or weighed. IMO, it would be a ridiculous statement for LE to make if they weren't talking about ashes, because how could there be more of an actual body or how could they conclude that there was more body if that's what they were referring to, regardless how charred it was. kwim?
JMHO, but the charred material they are talking about are ashes and there were more ashes than a man TB's size would reduce down to. IMO, the statement about "no evidence of additional victims" simply indicates that LE hadn't been able to determine what the other ashes were from. MOO

 

[swedie]

Please forgive my forshortening and refocusing of your post but it includes a statement that continues to befuddle me. Perhaps, somewhere <modsnip> I've missed out on an essential link - namely the one that confirms more evidence of TB's body than just ashes were ever found. If a more intact body WAS found, do you know why these remains not provided to the Bosma family for burial? Why were only ashes given to SB? I've ALWAYS been under the impression that only ashes were found (actually too many ashes for a single human being, we were told at one point) but would be happy to be corrected on this point if possible. Thanks.

See my posts #820, 994 and others I posted in the first Incinerator thread for MOO. Plus I will include now from these articles so HTH.

Also according to the source, police said after Bosma’s body was found that they believed he was killed in his truck following a struggle.
“He did not die in the fire,” the source said. “He didn’t burn alive.”
Kavanagh told a news conference on Tuesday that Bosma’s body was found burned “beyond recognition” at an undisclosed location in Waterloo.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2..._man_was_killed_inside_truck_source_says.html

If TB was nothing but ashes there would be nothing left for forensics to determine cause of death from kwim.

A cause of death is not yet known and the coroner and Centre of Forensic Sciences are assisting in examining the remains.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...olice-anxious-as-hunt-for-suspects-continues/

TB's remains (IMO ashes) were absent from the funeral service because a crematorium would needed to be contacted after forensic examinations were complete to make arrangements for TB's cremation. I would imagine SB would not have buried TB in the disgusting/disturbing state the perps reduced him to but that is just MOO. The reason she was handed a small box HTH.

As police probe Laura’s disappearance they appear to be wrapping up the extensive ground search that followed the discovery of Bosma’s charred body.

A spokesperson for the coroner’s office said Bosma’s body had not been released as of Tuesday afternoon. The remains will likely be absent at a funeral the family has scheduled for 11 a.m. Wednesday.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...wed_police_interest_in_her_disappearance.html

But the latest details brought to light refocus the attention back on Bosma's death. The Globe and Mail details the history of a livestock incinerator found on the plot of Millard's property where Bosma's badly-burned body was later discovered by police.

Bosma’s body was found on May 14, during a police search of Millard's property. The incinerator has been seized as evidence.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...-millard-livestock-incinerator-135236909.html

The fact LE were able to fairly quickly ID TB also is an indication there was more than just ashes. I would imagine clothing, a wallet or his boots would have burned before his body and I highly doubt they were IDing him just on jewelry or anything else he may have had on him. HTH. There were obviously some features or DNA left to make a positive ID Even though articles state "burned beyond recognition", doesn't mean he was reduced to ashes, just means unrecognizable. HTH. All :moo:

But on Tuesday, a dark undertaking was playing out as a forensics team worked into the evening sifting through evidence. Police announced earlier in the day they had found remains in the Waterloo region belonging to Tim Bosma, a 32-year-old Hamilton-area father who disappeared more than a week after taking two men for a test drive in his pickup truck. His body was “burned beyond recognition,” Detective Sergeant Matt Kavanagh said.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...t-degree-murder-of-tim-bosma/article11907415/

 

[swedie]

Thanks Dizzy-IMO the following quote from your post say's it all

Charred material leads me to believe that it wasn't a body. IMO, "Volume" would indicate something that could be measured by pouring it into something, whereas a body would be measured and/or weighed. IMO, it would be a ridiculous statement for LE to make if they weren't talking about ashes, because how could there be more of an actual body or how could they conclude that there was more body if that's what they were referring to, regardless how charred it was. kwim?
JMHO, but the charred material they are talking about are ashes and there were more ashes than a man TB's size would reduce down to. IMO, the statement about "no evidence of additional victims" simply indicates that LE hadn't been able to determine what the other ashes were from. MOO

MsSherlock, IMO I believe there was a body still. See my above post #68 if that may help to explain better. As to how much remained, we may find out during the trial. Really does make one wonder what else they added to the incinerator along with TB to accelerate heat. Wood, truck seats, evidence from this or past crimes? I'm beginning to think they either ran out of propane or used a chemical from one of the drums stored in the barn, which is why the temperature never got hot enough to reduce TB to ashes. Maybe they just ended up with a smoldering mess and knew by pouring more chemicals into the hot incinerator could be cause for a huge disaster. Example; fire flashback, someone getting burnt while pouring flammable chemicals. MOO.

 

[swedie]

Maybe one day into the future DM was planning on setting the old barn ablaze with all those chemicals inside (and destroying criminal evidence). Maybe he found out he wouldn't be able to collect insurance on it though being as he was the one who stored the drums in there, possibly illegally. Of course JMO.

Some may find these links interesting regarding

SAFETY TRAINING
FLAMMABLE/COMBUSTIBLE LIQUIDS 155

http://www.toolingu.com/definition-850155-26114-fire-flashback.html

Flammable and Combustible Material Storage Safety

http://www.covwc.com/templates/System/details.asp?id=48008&PG=resources&CID=30424

 

[bessie]

How about this very direct statement from LE:

“Investigation has now revealed that Tim Bosma was murdered,” Hamilton Police homicide Det.-Sgt. Matt Kavanagh told a news conference Tuesday afternoon.

continued...

“He was taken to a location in the Waterloo area where his body was burned beyond recognition.”

http://www.therecord.com/sports-story/3242980-bosma-found-dead-in-region/

 

[Arnie M]

MsSherlock, IMO I believe there was a body still. See my above post #68 if that may help to explain better. As to how much remained, we may find out during the trial. Really does make one wonder what else they added to the incinerator along with TB to accelerate heat. Wood, truck seats, evidence from this or past crimes? I'm beginning to think they either ran out of propane or used a chemical from one of the drums stored in the barn, which is why the temperature never got hot enough to reduce TB to ashes. Maybe they just ended up with a smoldering mess and knew by pouring more chemicals into the hot incinerator could be cause for a huge disaster. Example; fire flashback, someone getting burnt while pouring flammable chemicals. MOO.

swedie .... of all the theories I feel you are likely the closest .... I say that for the following reason .... every larger LP (liquid propane) storage tank has a "liquid level gauge" which operates from 0% to 85%

They are considered "full" at 85% because the top (15%) of the tank remains as vapor for expansion during temperature changes

On the same token "empty" is usually between 5% and 10% and the tank is normally sent for refilling ..... it can be run down to 0% but by then it is only vapors (no more liquid)

Below is a picture of a typical gauge .... I have used them extensively for liquid propane and NH3 (liquid ammonia - crop fertilizer)

I also include a (poor) caption of the DM propane tank which (to me) appears to be at 15% to 20% .... which fits with your theory they may have been running low on fuel (partial incineration)

On a side note ..... if DM did indeed purchase the incinerator for illegitimate uses ..... and planned to "keep it hidden" at the farm .... he outsmarted himself ..... every time the propane tank was empty . the whole unit would have to be hauled back to town to be refilled at a gas station or fuel supplier ..... and it is pretty hard to be anonymous towing a portable crematorium around on a regular basis.

I agree with your thinking swedie .... I put some arrows where I think the DM guage was reading .... see below

.... low fuel is a very likely scenario faced by DM and associates during the time of use

 

[swedie]

swedie .... of all the theories I feel you are likely the closest .... I say that for the following reason .... every larger LP (liquid propane) storage tank has a "liquid level gauge" which operates from 0% to 85%

They are considered "full" at 85% because the top (15%) of the tank remains as vapor for expansion during temperature changes

On the same token "empty" is usually between 5% and 10% and the tank is normally sent for refilling ..... it can be run down to 0% but by then it is only vapors (no more liquid)

Below is a picture of a typical gauge .... I have used them extensively for liquid propane and NH3 (liquid ammonia - crop fertilizer)

I also include a (poor) caption of the DM propane tank which (to me) appears to be at 15% to 20% .... which fits with your theory they may have been running low on fuel (partial incineration)

On a side note ..... if DM did indeed purchase the incinerator for illegitimate uses ..... and planned to "keep it hidden" at the farm .... he outsmarted himself ..... every time the propane tank was empty . the whole unit would have to be hauled back to town to be refilled at a gas station or fuel supplier ..... and it is pretty hard to be anonymous towing a portable crematorium around on a regular basis.

I agree with your thinking swedie .... I put some arrows where I think the DM guage was reading .... see below

.... low fuel is a very likely scenario faced by DM and associates during the time of use

I think one of three things happened which left identifiable evidence of TB's remains:

1. They ran out of propane
2. They used chemicals from the barn
3. They used gas from a gas can kept in the Yukon which could show pre planning

I also believe they did not stick around the farmland that night. Something spooked them and also kept them from going back to complete their dastardly deed. They assumed with TB in the incinerator, no one would be the wiser. Out of sight, out of mind. All MOO.

 

[Arnie M]

To run that model of incinerator on fuel oils (barrel contents) would require an additional fuel tank on the trailer and an injector pump at the base .... neither of which are apparent in the pictures. Flammables could not be "poured in" through the lid .... either before , during, or after .

 

[MsSherlock]

I think one of three things happened which left identifiable evidence of TB's remains:

1. They ran out of propane
2. They used chemicals from the barn
3. They used gas from a gas can kept in the Yukon which could show pre planning

I also believe they did not stick around the farmland that night. Something spooked them and also kept them from going back to complete their dastardly deed. They assumed with TB in the incinerator, no one would be the wiser. Out of sight, out of mind. All MOO.

Swedie, IMO teeth would not be reduced to ashes and may have been easy to identify quickly. However, I tend to agree with both you and Arnie that they didn't have enough fuel to complete the job, or perhaps if the theory of dismemberment is correct then a part or two didn't make it into the incinerator. MOO

 

[Archangel7]

I suspect they didn't hang around for the several hours needed to complete the job if the incinerator was actually used.

As MsSherlock mentioned teeth are usually good evidence as they provide a temperature indicator based on the tooth color change and DNA from within. Also the head of the femur bone is a good evidence producer in many cases if DNA remains in the marrow.

I don't know "exactly" the lingo HPD uses for "beyond recognition" however in most agencies that means beyond socially accepted terms of ID. Things you and I call recognition in the everyday world and generally means some type of forensic determination is needed for ID.

Just the apparent "fact" that the incinerator was relocated several times and moved apparently in the crime time frame coupled with a burned body pretty solidly establishes "probable cause" that it was used(more probable it was used than not used by definition.) That's why they have trials.

Also if the LE know TB died before burning, they either know, or have a good idea exactly how he died. If they know that, they likely know who and what type weapon was used. If they know who and what weapon, they would know when TB was in their presence thus establishing a timeline or validating LE's hypothetical timeline.

Couple that with phone records, prints, DNA, serology, witnesses, videos, "friends" that talk and DM/MS turning on each other, the Crown should have a solid case.

If you consider how divorce lawyers turn two "loving" people against one another, just imagine these two and murder 1.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I suspect they didn't hang around for the several hours needed to complete the job if the incinerator was actually used.

As MsSherlock mentioned teeth are usually good evidence as they provide a temperature indicator based on the tooth color change and DNA from within. Also the head of the femur bone is a good evidence producer in many cases if DNA remains in the marrow.

I don't know "exactly" the lingo HPD uses for "beyond recognition" however in most agencies that means beyond socially accepted terms of ID. Things you and I call recognition in the everyday world and generally means some type of forensic determination is needed for ID.

Just the apparent "fact" that the incinerator was relocated several times and moved apparently in the crime time frame coupled with a burned body pretty solidly establishes "probable cause" that it was used(more probable it was used than not used by definition.) That's why they have trials.

Also if the LE know TB died before burning, they either know, or have a good idea exactly how he died. If they know that, they likely know who and what type weapon was used. If they know who and what weapon, they would know when TB was in their presence thus establishing a timeline or validating LE's hypothetical timeline.

Couple that with phone records, prints, DNA, serology, witnesses, videos, "friends" that talk and DM/MS turning on each other, the Crown should have a solid case.

If you consider how divorce lawyers turn two "loving" people against one another, just imagine these two and murder 1.

rbbm

First bold - How many times was the incinerator moved and on what dates? I know the neighbour stated that it was moved from the original spot that it was seen, but have read nothing about it being moved several times or the time frames of any moves. Can you please provide the link to this apparent "fact"?

Second bold - If you re-read the article from Swedie's post, you will see that this information came from an unnamed source, not involved in the investigation, who says that the police say that. Also that part of that unnamed sources information was denied by Det. Kavanagh. That third-hand hearsay creates a pretty big "if" IMO. Of course, HPD may have this information by now, but it has never been confirmed to my knowledge.

I shall await your link regarding the movements and timing of such movements of the incinerator. Thanks in advance.

 

[swedie]

I feel pretty confident in believing there was more left of TB than just bones and ashes. Identification seemed almost instantaneous; at the site and this article does claim there was a body. Could it be through forensic examination of TB's remains, they discovered a chemical was used instead of propane, therefore leading them back to search the barn, not only for LB but to find the source of chemical used in the incinerator?

During that initial brief search of the barn, did the three officers take note of the barrels? At that time the barrels did not seem relevant until forensics got test results back from TB's body. Of course chemicals used in the burning would be relevant to this case as it would go to show whomever used them knew they were stored in the barn. Who else besides DM would know that they were there kwim. Again I can see this being the case (use of chemicals and not propane) and the reason for TB's body to still have been somewhat present. Not enough, or not a highly flammable chemical was used to completely reduce TB to ashes. Also being in the enclosed incinerator, there would be very minimal air flow, lack of oxygen to feed the fire causing it not to reach sufficient temperatures to burn very well as opposed to using propane which the incinerator was designed for. In that initial search LE were looking for TB and they had found him so at that point a search of the barn was irrelevant until further information lead them back to it. JMO

Why use assistance from the coroner's office if there was no body? Forensics would have been sufficient. I wonder what brought LE to the conclusion TB died that night and the fact that he was murdered? My thought is TB's remains may have had signs of murder such as stab wounds to vital organs or a slit throat, or bullet wounds. They found his truck in DM's trailer, in Kleinburg the previous Sunday which probably showed signs of a struggle, blood inside, a weapon, seats removed and that lead them to the conclusion TB died that night. Also who knows what the neighbours heard or saw that night which may have assisted LE to come to the conclusion TB was murdered tht night. All MOO.

Earlier Tuesday, Hamilton Police Chief Glenn DeCaire gave the grim news that Bosma&#8217;s body had been found. Investigators have been searching several locations and found a body, he said.
&#8220;They are convinced by the totality of the evidence that these are the remains of Tim Bosma,&#8221; DeCaire said. &#8220;The evidence indicates the remains have been burned.&#8221;

&#8220;I believe Mr. Bosma died that night,&#8221; Kavanagh said.

The location of where the body was found wasn&#8217;t released. Hamilton and Waterloo Region Police continue investigating at the Roseville Road property.

A Hamilton Police forensics van arrived shortly before noon. Kavanagh said assistance from the coroner&#8217;s office has been requested.

And then there is this tidbit from the same article. Mind you that was at the time of this report and only according to this reporter. There may have been a more extensive search prior to the last search. Possibly when LE were digging up areas of the farmland, LE were scouring the barn. At that time nothing seemed relevant or urgent to probe further. MOO.

Three officers spent a few minutes looking through an old barn on the property that stands near Roseville Road.

http://www.therecord.com/sports-story/3242980-bosma-found-dead-in-region/

 

[SnooperDuper]

I don't know "exactly" the lingo HPD uses for "beyond recognition" however in most agencies that means beyond socially accepted terms of ID. Things you and I call recognition in the everyday world and generally means some type of forensic determination is needed for ID.

<rsbm>

Today the autopsy results have been released in the Hannah Anderson case. Her brother Ethan was in LE's words "burned beyond recognition" though the autopsy was able to tell that he probably died in the fire and that he had fractured arms. Ethan was originally ID'd through DNA.

 

[bessie]

Thanks SnooperDuper.

Ethan was found in another part of the home, burned beyond recognition. It was believed, according to the autopsy, that the boy died because of the fire. Ethan also had skeletal fractures that could have been caused by events that day.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/24/justice/hannah-anderson-family-autopsy/index.html

Ethan&#8217;s body was burned so completely medical examiners couldn&#8217;t say how he died. Death by gunshot, knifing or beating are all possibilities, the report said, but it&#8217;s at least as likely he burned to death.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...eaten-autopsy-article-1.1465670#ixzz2fq34f7SZ
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