The Incinerator

[Carli]

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Yes I expect so...but bodies have a way of becoming very delicate after death, not easy to move especially if burnt. If even part of the body was charred it would possibly have fell apart somewhat upon moving. There would not have been the usual care of a deceased that is given when people die at home or in hospital as rigor mortis starts to set in after 15 minutes or so. The body also releases fluids etc....so its not a simple case of picking up a body and placing in a casket in this particular case, and he was not found immediately apparently.

I'm still unclear about whether by "unrecognizable" in referring to the remains, LE meant they were dealing with incinerated ashes or whether they'd found a horribly singed body.
http://www.theobserver.ca/2013/05/18/forensic-investigation-into-tim-bosma-death-wrapped-up MSM refers to both "charred remains" and "burned beyond recognition" but surely modern ID techniques would provide the means to quickly and reliably identify all but the most thoroughly destroyed remains.

 

[CanuckSleuth]

Although we do not have any evidence that the incinerator was used in the murder or disposal of the body, it is reasonable to believe it was.

Agreed, it is reasonable to believe.

It is also reasonable to believe that it's possible that DM did not frequent the farm often as there would not be a need to with the land rented out, no livestock to tend to and a potential empty out building - though it has not been said if the barn was empty or unused. It is also reasonable that "friends" knew of the farm, the non farmable acres and used it for their uses, without the knowledge of DM, or his knowledge being as much as "hey I picked up some equipment, can I store it on your farm."

In hindsight, if the latter was the case, perhaps DM should have asked specifics, but I can say that I am storing some things for a friend and I have not asked of the origins or what the stuff is.

Hopefully/ thankfully evidence will be revealed at the trial to clarify what happened, the purpose and use of equipment etc. JMO

 

[Blomquist]

[/URL]

I'm still unclear about whether by "unrecognizable" in referring to the remains, LE meant they were dealing with incinerated ashes or whether they'd found a horribly singed body.
http://www.theobserver.ca/2013/05/18/forensic-investigation-into-tim-bosma-death-wrapped-up MSM refers to both "charred remains" and "burned beyond recognition" but surely modern ID techniques would provide the means to quickly and reliably identify all but the most thoroughly destroyed remains.

Well they sure claimed it was TB pretty quickly, so maybe he was identified by remaining parts ie./ birthmark, moles etc hard to know for sure. The teeth are identifiable so maybe this was the mode for identifying. I am actually surprised that he was ID'd so quickly given that they said he was unrecognizable. To me unrecognizable (burned beyond recognition) means what it says. Will be interesting to find out what 'totality of evidence' really means.

 

[Blomquist]

Perhaps police have evidence that an incinerator was used in an attempt to dispose of the body of Tim Bosma who was (IMO) killed in a nonsensical, awful and disgraceful murder. I bet that the police do have a lot more evidence and when the trial starts the correct perpetrator/s will be found guilty of this despicable crime. (MOO)

Lets hope so Ellie, whoever the correct perpetrators may be.

 

[Blomquist]

Although we do not have any evidence that the incinerator was used in the murder or disposal of the body, it is reasonable to believe it was.

Yes it is.... and equally reasonable to believe that it wasn't, depending on the way we see it.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I'm just going to throw this out there as to why I'm not convinced that the incinerator was used. TB's body was identified very quickly after he was found. At the time, LE stated that they were not certain if the incinerator was used and they were trying to determine if it was used in either the murder or the disposal of the body.

But police are not certain if it was used to burn the Ancaster man’s body, said Hamilton police Det. Sgt. Matt Kavanagh.

Kavanagh said forensic officers are trying to determine if the incinerator found on the property belonging to Dellen Millard in North Dumfries was used in connection with Bosma’s murder or the disposal of his body.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/05/16/tim_bosma_incinerator_found_at_farm_owned_by_dellan_millard.html


That leads me to believe the body was found outside of the incinerator. I would think that it would not be an easy task to remove a partially burned body from that machine. Nor can I think of any possible reason why the accused would remove the body, rather than just taking the 2 hours or more to finish the job - especially if they had already taken the time to make it fit inside and do a partial burn. They certainly must not have felt pressed for time, if that's the case. On the other hand, if the body was found inside, there would be no reason for LE to need to question the manufacturer about how it works or how fast it burns. The evidence would be right there.

The cause of death is still unknown and is waiting for the coroner's report. All we know is that TB was burned "beyond recognition". Anyone who doesn't know what fire can do to a person, a person who survives, might want to google David Rothenberg or Terri Calvesbert.

JMO

 

[Annie1004]

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I'm still unclear about whether by "unrecognizable" in referring to the remains, LE meant they were dealing with incinerated ashes or whether they'd found a horribly singed body.
http://www.theobserver.ca/2013/05/18/forensic-investigation-into-tim-bosma-death-wrapped-up MSM refers to both "charred remains" and "burned beyond recognition" but surely modern ID techniques would provide the means to quickly and reliably identify all but the most thoroughly destroyed remains.

Dental records could identify the victim within hours.

 

[Archangel7]

Yes I expect so...but bodies have a way of becoming very delicate after death, not easy to move especially if burnt. If even part of the body was charred it would possibly have fell apart somewhat upon moving. There would not have been the usual care of a deceased that is given when people die at home or in hospital as rigor mortis starts to set in after 15 minutes or so. The body also releases fluids etc....so its not a simple case of picking up a body and placing in a casket in this particular case, and he was not found immediately apparently.

Rigor Mortis DOES NOT begin in 15 minutes. It takes from about 2.5 to 6 hours and starts in particular places like the neck and face first ESPECIALLY the eyelids.

A burned body has a extremely identifiable posture. Nobody would mistake it that has ever seen it.

I didn't read this link but I'm sure it will address any misinformation.

http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html

 

[Blomquist]

Rigor Mortis DOES NOT begin in 15 minutes. It takes from about 2.5 to 6 hours and starts in particular places like the neck and face first ESPECIALLY the eyelids.

A burned body has a extremely identifiable posture. Nobody would mistake it that has ever seen it.

I didn't read this link but I'm sure it will address any misinformation.

http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html

I'm afraid we shall have to agree to differ. I have dealt with dead bodies in my line of work. Rigor Mortis begins...it obviously does not complete in 15 mins but it begins after about 15 mins. You are correct about the eyelids, and that is why they are closed as soon as possible. Arms are placed down if they are bent asap so that they do not need to be forced. I have worked with many deceased and I can assure you RM does start after around 15 mins. The jaw also locks and prevents false teeth from being put back in if they are out, and this is very soon after death occurs. I can only speak of that which I have seen for myself.

 

[Carli]

Dental records could identify the victim within hours.

Nevertheless, so far as I can ascertain, the best we have to go on so far was reported in... http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/14/tim-bosma-found-dead/

Hamilton Police Chief Glenn De Caire did not indicate in a short statement to the media where Bosma’s body was found or what the cause of death was.

“A number of searches have taken place and human remains have been located,” he said. “We are convinced by the totality of the evidence, that these are the remains of Tim Bosma. The evidence indicates that the remains have been burned.

...and that, IMO, is precious little.

 

[Archangel7]

I'm afraid we shall have to agree to differ. I have dealt with dead bodies in my line of work. Rigor Mortis begins...it obviously does not complete in 15 mins but it begins after about 15 mins. You are correct about the eyelids, and that is why they are closed as soon as possible. Arms are placed down if they are bent asap so that they do not need to be forced. I have worked with many deceased and I can assure you RM does start after around 15 mins. The jaw also locks and prevents false teeth from being put back in if they are out, and this is very soon after death occurs. I can only speak of that which I have seen for myself.

A reputable reference stating that exactly please. Can you share that occupation with us or possibly the mods?

 

[Carli]

Rigor Mortis DOES NOT begin in 15 minutes. It takes from about 2.5 to 6 hours and starts in particular places like the neck and face first ESPECIALLY the eyelids.

A burned body has a extremely identifiable posture. Nobody would mistake it that has ever seen it.

I didn't read this link but I'm sure it will address any misinformation.

http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html

Please don't read it if you're at all squeamish That is very, very gross. I prefer to amuse myself with visions of ethereal immortality and not confront the reality of putrid fluids emanating from decaying corpses. Maybe that's JMO.

 

[Alethea Dice]

A reputable reference stating that exactly please. Can you share that occupation with us or possibly the mods?

Wasn't it thought that TB was killed shortly after they left on the test drive? Wasn't it thought that he may have fought for his life?

Physical exertion just prior to death: If someone dies while engaged in strenuous activity like exercising or struggling against drowning, rigor mortis can set in immediately. This instant onset, sometimes called cadaveric spasm, happens because the person's muscles, at the moment of death, were depleted of oxygen energy and ATP. This is why the victim of a violent attack may still be clutching the attacker's hair or a piece of clothing.

http://health.howstuffworks.com/diseases-conditions/death-dying/rigor-mortis-cause2.htm

If the deceased has had a large amount of physical exertion prior to death, they may generally expend all their oxygen (and therefore ATP) prior to death (if for example, they are in a violent struggle to the death). This can mean that at the time of death, rigor mortis sets in instantly. This is referred to as a “cavaderic spasm”. The position that the individual is in at the time of the onset of this bizarre phenomenon may actually pinpoint a cause of death.

http://forensicoutreach.com/the-curious-state-of-rigor-mortis/

 

[Archangel7]

Wasn't it thought that TB was killed shortly after they left on the test drive? Wasn't it thought that he may have fought for his life?



http://health.howstuffworks.com/diseases-conditions/death-dying/rigor-mortis-cause2.htm



http://forensicoutreach.com/the-curious-state-of-rigor-mortis/

Rigor mortis under high lactic acid levels in tissue causes quickening of the onset just as temperatures do. While things do happen at specific times given extreme conditions, the body rigidity goes towards flaccidity just the same way at specific times depending on variables like temperature, lactic acid, etc.
Rigor mortis is a inexact means of determining time of death. If you approach a 15 minute dead body and lift the arm it won't stay there. If they died clutching something, it is possible that when rigor mortis sets in they will still have it clutched.

The basil ganglia controls voluntary motor skills and when it is disrupted/dies/destroyed, etc. nothing moves from that point on in regards to the hair grasping or the freezing in the moment of all further motor control and movement

In the particular case we are speaking of, the time involved to find TB and the seats being removed/destroyed, I have confidence the body wasn't rigid in 15 minutes after death.

Thanks for the links.

 

[Blomquist]

Wasn't it thought that TB was killed shortly after they left on the test drive? Wasn't it thought that he may have fought for his life?



http://health.howstuffworks.com/diseases-conditions/death-dying/rigor-mortis-cause2.htm



http://forensicoutreach.com/the-curious-state-of-rigor-mortis/

Precisely Alethea. ... I have witnessed several deceased and full RM does take 2-6 hours to complete. But it begins in normal deaths around 15 minutes. The links you have posted basically confirm how quickly it can begin, especially after a traumatic end. Thanks for posting the links.

 

[Blomquist]

In the particular case we are speaking of, the time involved to find TB and the seats being removed/destroyed, I have confidence the body wasn't rigid in 15 minutes after death.

This is your opinion?

 

[Archangel7]

This is your opinion?

I believe the word confidence would cover that, yes, and my considering possible blood loss as the reason for the seats being removed.

How long does it take RM to set in on a body with a large blood loss as in bad enough to have to remove the seats?

 

[Blomquist]

I believe the word confidence would cover that, yes, and my considering possible blood loss as the reason for the seats being removed.

How long does it take RM to set in on a body with a large blood loss as in bad enough to have to remove the seats?

That would be assuming that it was blood that was the reason for removing seats .

Of course body fluids leave a mess too and the smell is quite putrid.

And there is also the possibility that the seat removal was nothing to do with blood or body fluids.

Less blood to stagnate would IMO mean that RM would be quicker overall.

 

[Archangel7]

That would be assuming that it was blood that was the reason for removing seats .

Of course body fluids leave a mess too and the smell is quite putrid.

And there is also the possibility that the seat removal was nothing to do with blood or body fluids.

Less blood to stagnate would IMO mean that RM would be quicker overall.

Then how would lactic acid in the missing blood, feeding the muscle tissue, increase RM? The oxygen in the blood wouldn't be there to contribute either would it?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

To expat cdn #268


Some of the targeted markets for our incinerators are:

•Incineraters for Drug Task Force and Crime Scene Divisions

http://www.supernovamfg.com/solution.html#[/B]

Yes, may be. MOO