The Incinerator

[Shaky pi]

When our loved ones die they are usually always put in a box. If cremated they are in a small box and if buried they are in a larger box. I know the feeling of losing a spouse to a box...so I am not being heartless here. I would imagine she knew that her spouse had been cremated, to complete the process as she would have needed to request/authorize it. So I do not think it would have been unexpected. Dreaded maybe...but not unexpected. JMO

I to have had 2 familymembers cremated , we were given very nice boxes to put the ashes where we were told to putthe ashes .. ( just a box )

Dont think enough of tim left for any kind of proper burial , but do think what left of tim was given to funeral home for proper cremation ....
I feel police recovered more then what we think as they took a long while to hand over remains to family...

If put in the terminator , there wouldnt have been much of him left , but even a half hour in there at full temp , way more damage then we could imagine , very grusome remains ....

we wont know untill trial , but i think when we learn the damage we wont be prepared..

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I mean it's much more important to wish that Tim suffered before his death not too heavy and too long.
Wether his remains were then either treated by the perpetrators is important only from judicial reasons. And I hope we will find out for sure.
The more sadistic the crime the higher the penalty should be, MOO.

 

[Archangel7]

I mean it's much more important to wish that Tim suffered before his death not too heavy and too long.
Wether his remains were then either treated by the perpetrators is important only from judicial reasons. And I hope we will find out for sure.
The more sadistic the crime the higher the penalty should be, MOO.

Here are some statistics on the chance of penalty. They are fairly old(1995) I believe.

For every five individual's originally charged with first- degree murder, only one is convicted of this homicide offense (others have the charge reduced to second-degree murder or manslaughter).10 Of those convicted of homicide in adult court, 45% receive life sentences, slightly more than one-third receive from two to 10 years and about one in 10 receive custodial sentences of less than two years. As such, nine in 10 homicide offenders receive sentences to be served in a federal penitentiary (the remainder serve their sentences in a provincial facility). Finally, a December 31, 1994 snapshot of the federal offender population identified almost one-fifth of this population as homicide offenders (15% of this group had been convicted of first-degree murder, 55% of second degree murder and 30% of manslaughter).11

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/briefs/b12/b12e-eng.shtml

 

[SnooperDuper]

Whatever came of this? May 19th...

Police searching the farm of Dellen Millard, the 27-year-old charged with first-degree murder after the remains of Ancaster, Ont., man Tim Bosma were discovered, have found other remains on the property.

Forensic investigators are now working to determine whether the other remains are human or animal.

Police have previously said they discovered burned remains on the farm, and investigators say they are confident they belong to Bosma.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/05/19/toronto-millard-remains-discovered.html

Keep in mind this quote is from May 16th...

Despite suggestions the volume of charred material recovered exceeded what would be expected from a man of Mr. Bosma’s size, there is no evidence of additional victims, police said.

“The report of further bodies is totally untrue at this time,” Staff-Sgt. Kavanagh told the National Post.

It is not known if the remains might be from farm animals from the large rural property in Ayr, west of Hamilton.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/16/police-seize-large-incinerator-from-property-of-suspect-in-tim-bosmas-murder/

 

[Carli]

Whatever came of this? May 19th...

Police searching the farm of Dellen Millard, the 27-year-old charged with first-degree murder after the remains of Ancaster, Ont., man Tim Bosma were discovered, have found other remains on the property.

Forensic investigators are now working to determine whether the other remains are human or animal.

Police have previously said they discovered burned remains on the farm, and investigators say they are confident they belong to Bosma.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/05/19/toronto-millard-remains-discovered.html

Keep in mind this quote is from May 16th...

Despite suggestions the volume of charred material recovered exceeded what would be expected from a man of Mr. Bosma’s size, there is no evidence of additional victims, police said.

“The report of further bodies is totally untrue at this time,” Staff-Sgt. Kavanagh told the National Post.

It is not known if the remains might be from farm animals from the large rural property in Ayr, west of Hamilton.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/16/police-seize-large-incinerator-from-property-of-suspect-in-tim-bosmas-murder/

Thanks for posting these sources again Snooper. The elephant in the room, from my point of view, still rests in the fundamental question - have the remains of TB actually ever been found? We have phrases like "totality of the evidence" provided almost immediately following the discovery of ashes at the farm that were later qualified by an admission that it was not possible to determine the source of such a large amount of ashes without further forensic investigation (which may not yet be complete?). MOO should in no way suggest that DM together with known or unknown associates did not murder TB but, again, is only meant to question whether TB's body was found and positively identified. MOO

 

[puppyraiser]

Thanks for posting these sources again Snooper. The elephant in the room, from my point of view, still rests in the fundamental question - have the remains of TB actually ever been found? We have phrases like "totality of the evidence" provided almost immediately following the discovery of ashes at the farm that were later qualified by an admission that it was not possible to determine the source of such a large amount of ashes without further forensic investigation (which may not yet be complete?). MOO should in no way suggest that DM together with known or unknown associates did not murder TB but, again, is only meant to question whether TB's body was found and positively identified. MOO

Hard to say what exactly is meant by "totality of the evidence". Has someone been talking, or did police find some metal object belonging to Tim in amongst the ashes (like a ring, extra key chain, money clip) If an item like a ring had been found, it's unlikely (at least to me) that it would be in the ashes without still being in possession of the victim.

Going back to a question I posted the other day, would LE be able to test the ash to determine if TB's or LB's DNA was present? Can they even determine if it is human, animal or seats from the truck or a combination of all?

 

[Carli]

Hard to say what exactly is meant by "totality of the evidence". Has someone been talking, or did police find some metal object belonging to Tim in amongst the ashes (like a ring, extra key chain, money clip) If an item like a ring had been found, it's unlikely (at least to me) that it would be in the ashes without still being in possession of the victim.

Going back to a question I posted the other day, would LE be able to test the ash to determine if TB's or LB's DNA was present? Can they even determine if it is human, animal or seats from the truck or a combination of all?

Good questions, imo, pup. Threshold requirements for corpus delicti are particularly high in support of a charge of murder, imo, or at least they should be, imo. Even then, confessions and accusations are only useful when supported by material evidence, imo. Further still, the finding of unburned items in incinerator ashes, some or all of which had been the property of a particular individual would not necessarily prove any of (1) that the person was murdered (2) that the murdered person's body was disposed of in the incinerator or (3) the identity of the murderer. MOO. Again, it's hard to make much sense of the case against the accused based on the limited information we've received so far, imo. It's entirely possible they're guilty of the charges against them and perhaps more besides. However, unless or until such details are released I think your signature line is most appropriate to the circumstances, pup. MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

Good questions, imo, pup. Threshold requirements for corpus delicti are particularly high in support of a charge of murder, imo, or at least they should be, imo. Even then, confessions and accusations are only useful when supported by material evidence, imo. Further still, the finding of unburned items in incinerator ashes, some or all of which had been the property of a particular individual would not necessarily prove any of (1) that the person was murdered (2) that the murdered person's body was disposed of in the incinerator or (3) the identity of the murderer. MOO. Again, it's hard to make much sense of the case against the accused based on the limited information we've received so far, imo. It's entirely possible they're guilty of the charges against them and perhaps more besides. However, unless or until such details are released I think your signature line is most appropriate to the circumstances, pup. MOO

What has been hinted is that the murder scene was the truck. Both times from "police sources", saying "he was killed in his truck following a struggle" and the "truck [was] found with seats missing". So whatever is in the truck and trailer is going to speak a lot about this crime.

The incinerator, if used, only obfuscates the cause of death. I don't even know if incinerating someone is causing an indignity to a human body, if that's exactly what crematories do in respect, anyway.

The incinerator, if used, would effectively HIDE TB's body and cause of death. An innocent person would have nothing to hide. That is the only way using the incinerator (if in fact etc...) is relevant, it might show that the person that used it attempted to cover their prior actions i.e., they knew that they had committed a wrong and could not approach authorities about the death.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Thanks for posting these sources again Snooper. The elephant in the room, from my point of view, still rests in the fundamental question - have the remains of TB actually ever been found? We have phrases like "totality of the evidence" provided almost immediately following the discovery of ashes at the farm that were later qualified by an admission that it was not possible to determine the source of such a large amount of ashes without further forensic investigation (which may not yet be complete?). MOO should in no way suggest that DM together with known or unknown associates did not murder TB but, again, is only meant to question whether TB's body was found and positively identified. MOO

<modsnip> my question out of those quotes is: did they in fact find some additional burnt remains that turned out to be animal, showing that the incinerator was in fact used legitimately at least once?

 

[Archangel7]

Hard to say what exactly is meant by "totality of the evidence". Has someone been talking, or did police find some metal object belonging to Tim in amongst the ashes (like a ring, extra key chain, money clip) If an item like a ring had been found, it's unlikely (at least to me) that it would be in the ashes without still being in possession of the victim.

Going back to a question I posted the other day, would LE be able to test the ash to determine if TB's or LB's DNA was present? Can they even determine if it is human, animal or seats from the truck or a combination of all?

The real question is whether those "ashes" have enough of a DNA sample to test. It takes extremely small amount to test, sometimes 3 or 4 skin cells is enough(to give a size comparison of the sample).

Then of course if that was tested and found to match TB's DNA.

My guess is they found an unrecognizable TB(that covers a lot of possibilities) and quickly did an DNA ID but not a complete DNA ID until days/weeks later and eventually that was released to SB.

The larger than needed ash could be from foreign matter used for fuel or not.

JMO

 

[Eljo]

This discussion still brings me back to SB 's interview in which she states that she and TB wanted to be buried side by side in CASKETS. Jmo but I still think that unless the remains were little more than ash she would have requested a casket.

 

[Eljo]

Does anyone here know what it takes to ID a victim when they are 'unrecognizable'? Would jewelry , a belt etc be sufficient??

 

[Blomquist]

This discussion still brings me back to SB 's interview in which she states that she and TB wanted to be buried side by side in CASKETS. Jmo but I still think that unless the remains were little more than ash she would have requested a casket.

I think if someone is partially burnt already it would make sense to complete it for many reasons. I have said before that moving a charred body would mean said body will fall apart or at least partially....very difficult to gather and place in a casket JMO. Also an open casket visitation is not possible if face is charred or severely damaged (for example road traffic accident). The job of a funeral home is usually to do the whole embalming process which may not be possible with a partially burnt/decomposed body. So maybe it was advised or necessary to go the smaller box route. JMO

 

[Blomquist]

Does anyone here know what it takes to ID a victim when they are 'unrecognizable'? Would jewelry , a belt etc be sufficient??

It would certainly help to identify jewelry...but I would think that either dental records or any birth marks/defects would be the way to go. If there is any body tissue left then that could be used to get DNA. It takes a while to get results of DNA...not an overnight thing. I find the whole case somewhat mystifying and the ID process that apparently occurred is part of my mystery.... MOO

 

[Solo712]

Does anyone here know what it takes to ID a victim when they are 'unrecognizable'? Would jewelry , a belt etc be sufficient??

Normally, IMO, 'unrecognizable' would mean, 'not possible to confirm visually the identity of'. However, LE used an interesting qualifier ' totality of evidence' when they made the determination that the remains were TB's. This to me indicates that no DNA or dental positive ID was extracted from the remains at that time. I have not seen any statement that would change that since mid-May. You may be right in that some identifying artifacts may have been found nearby that have given LE the confidence to say that the burned human remains found were his to lay two charges of murder of him.

Best,
J.

 

[Eldee]

Does anyone here know what it takes to ID a victim when they are 'unrecognizable'? Would jewelry , a belt etc be sufficient??

I found this link rather interesting and may help to answer your questions.

http://thecarlsoncompany.net/postmortem.html

 

[Blomquist]

<modsnip> my question out of those quotes is: did they in fact find some additional burnt remains that turned out to be animal, showing that the incinerator was in fact used legitimately at least once?

<modsnip> I think incinerator was probably used lawfully more than once.

 

[Carli]

I found this link rather interesting and may help to answer your questions.

http://thecarlsoncompany.net/postmortem.html

Very informatative Eldee. Thanks. In particular, the summary states "Yes, cremains, human or animal, can undergo DNA extraction testing with a 50/50 chance for detection of an identifiable partial or complete DNA profile for identity "

That information, together with specific intact identifying items, ie jewellery; dental remants, etc. should serve to significantly increase the potential for positive identity, imo. I recall, very early on, there was a post
referencing possible tattoos on TB's fingers. Should they have remained intact, that would certainly meet any threshold for corpus delicti regarding identity, MOO. Not sure if I can find it.

Here: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9404617#post9404617"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9404617#post9404617[/ame] Posts 99; 100 etc. Unfortunately the referenced link to the beautiful wedding photographs seems no longer available online.

 

[Blomquist]

Very informatative Eldee. Thanks. In particular, the summary states "Yes, cremains, human or animal, can undergo DNA extraction testing with a 50/50 chance for detection of an identifiable partial or complete DNA profile for identity "

That information, together with specific intact identifying items, ie jewellery; dental remants, etc. should serve to significantly increase the potential for positive identity, imo. I recall, very early on, there was a post
referencing possible tattoos on TB's fingers. Should they have remained intact, that would certainly meet any threshold for corpus delicti regarding identity, MOO. Not sure if I can find it.

Here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9404617#post9404617 Posts 99; 100 etc. Unfortunately the referenced link to the beautiful wedding photographs seems no longer available online.

They have deleted the photos. People were saying that it was not TB who had the tattoos. But it certainly looked like him to me.JMO/IMO Wish they were still available for a positive ID by all without relying on memory of a few. The tattoos were KKSO or opposite way around. Two intials on two fingers from what I could see. MOO

 

[Eldee]

I remember LE saying we have identified the remains of TB due to the totality of the evidence. He didn't say we have positively identified TB' remains due to DNA or dental testing, but again, by the totality of the evidence. IMO it seems they could not find DNA but looked at all the evidence and concluded it must be TB. Maybe I am wrong, but a good defense attorney could certainly poke holes with totality of the evidence if DNA has not proven it was TB. JMO