The Incinerator

[Archangel7]

If the lease isn't recorded against the title of the land a new owner wouldn't know it before he bought it and the farmer would have no rights to it via the new owner. He may have recourse in a court against the original owner but if he didn't record or have his lawyer record the lease against the title he's out on the crops.

Maybe the farmer had a "pick your own crop" and they were not trespassing.

I doubt whether it's important, many crimes/bodies are discovered by people on other's property. The police don't ask if you were trespassing when you found the body and if so then state they can't come investigate because it was illegally seen by you.

http://www.farmlink.net/en/docs/accessing_land_for_farming_in_ontario_guidebook.pdf

 

[Sillybilly]

We don't really know what the pre siding judge will do ... they have a lot of leeway these days ;-)

No we don't, and that's why I said the judge will determine ... his decision will be yay or nay wrt probative vs prejudicial.

 

[Blomquist]

Whomever the contract is between are the parties involved. If someone sells a house with a tenant the tenant is given notice to get out as per contract...even if they have strawberries growing in the yard. JMO

 

[Eljo]

If I may I'd like to bring this thread back to its original subject -the incinerator. I may have missed this but has anyone speculated as to why and by whom the incinerator was moved? That puzzles me.

 

[Eljo]

I don't think this possibility has been mentioned but regarding the debate of ashes vs charred remains etc., is it not possible that tge incinerator was used but never achieved high enough temperatures or used long enough to completely cremate the body? That could explain the terminology and could also explain confusion regarding quantity of ashes if that part is indeed true. I believe I read that the temperature attained in crematoriums is higher than that of the incinerator. Also I have read that during cremations some of the bone needs to be pulverized. So, I would gather from this that some bone would likely have been discovered in the incinerator if it was used and would allow quick DNA assessment.

 

[Coldpizza]

I don't think this possibility has been mentioned but regarding the debate of ashes vs charred remains etc., is it not possible that tge incinerator was used but never achieved high enough temperatures or used long enough to completely cremate the body? That could explain the terminology and could also explain confusion regarding quantity of ashes if that part is indeed true. I believe I read that the temperature attained in crematoriums is higher than that of the incinerator. Also I have read that during cremations some of the bone needs to be pulverized. So, I would gather from this that some bone would likely have been discovered in the incinerator if it was used and would allow quick DNA assessment.

rsbm

I think that is a good possibility.

 

[ArianeEmory]

I don't think this possibility has been mentioned but regarding the debate of ashes vs charred remains etc., is it not possible that tge incinerator was used but never achieved high enough temperatures or used long enough to completely cremate the body? That could explain the terminology and could also explain confusion regarding quantity of ashes if that part is indeed true. I believe I read that the temperature attained in crematoriums is higher than that of the incinerator. Also I have read that during cremations some of the bone needs to be pulverized. So, I would gather from this that some bone would likely have been discovered in the incinerator if it was used and would allow quick DNA assessment.

We've discussed this to some extent, but it's been a while. Mostly everything you say seems to be correct based on other responses I've read when it comes up.

Also the possibility that the rumored "scorch marks" on the ground could be due to improper use/no concrete pad as recommended by manufacturer.

 

[swedie]

Could it be the "nosy" neighbour was the person renting the property from DM?

 

[Archangel7]

Whomever the contract is between are the parties involved. If someone sells a house with a tenant the tenant is given notice to get out as per contract...even if they have strawberries growing in the yard. JMO

Not talking about tenant law.

The subject was leased land and what can happen if the lease isn't tied to the title of the land as a justification/ motivation to do so.

Thanks for re enforcing my point about losing the crops on a land sale unless the lease is registered. That is and was my point and reason for leases being likely registered against the land title.

 

[Pink Panther]

rsbm

I think that is a good possibility.

Horrible...But this is what I always thought happened based on MSM reporting and SB's interview.

moo

 

[bessie]

I don't think this possibility has been mentioned but regarding the debate of ashes vs charred remains etc., is it not possible that tge incinerator was used but never achieved high enough temperatures or used long enough to completely cremate the body? That could explain the terminology and could also explain confusion regarding quantity of ashes if that part is indeed true. I believe I read that the temperature attained in crematoriums is higher than that of the incinerator. Also I have read that during cremations some of the bone needs to be pulverized. So, I would gather from this that some bone would likely have been discovered in the incinerator if it was used and would allow quick DNA assessment.

I suggested awhile back that the job was incomplete due to user error. So yes, I think it's quite possible. If the right temperature was not sustained for the required length of time, DNA ID could be made quickly. A recent example is Dylan Redwine. DNA from bone was used to make an ID within 2-3 days.

http://www.kktv.com/home/headlines/Dylan-Redwines-Brother-Reacts-To-Discovery-213437161.html

 

[swedie]

What sometimes seems obvious may not be the obvious. What I mean is, just because the incinerator was found on DM's property after DM's arrest, it may not have been on the property prior to or during the death of TB. Did DM have the incinerator in the hangar and used it for heat, burning parts from stolen vehicles or whatever else he felt he needed to get rid of? For some reason I envision TM being burned in a barrel or on the ground on DM's property. It's possible DM and MS went back to the farmland the next day and found TB was still identifiable, so did they went to the hangar and get the incinerator (in the picture the incinerator is on a type of trailer for transportation) and bring it to the property with the intention of going back late at night or the wee hours of the morning for finish the 'job'? Did something happen such as the media releasing the disappearance of TB and info about the suspect's tattoo, they got paranoid wondering if they were being watched, therefore never made it back to the farmland before DM was arrested? Was there an article which stated DM was being followed prior to his arrest. Or did DM suspect he was being followed/watched?

When was the first time the neighbour noticed the incinerator on the farmland? The incinerator could have been used in the hangar safely and under cover without anyone aware. Did they decide not to take TB back to the hangar because there may have been blood or DNA evidence they felt could be left behind in the hangar which they couldn't get rid of? Did they use the incinerator before for a person and the smell was too much? Did they dump TB's body at the farmland because there was some activity going on at the airport late that night and were paranoid of being caught? Or did they just want to get rid of TB's deceased body quickly and not take the chance of being caught driving around with him in the truck? We are only going to be privy to these answers through the trial I believe. Just random questions and opinions to consider.

Picture of DM's incinerator on trailer
http://news.ca.msn.com/ontario/brampton/tim-bosma-incinerator-found-at-farm-owned-by-millard

Info on incinerators and uses.
http://www.erosionpollution.com/small-incinerator-for-animal-waste.html

I posted a link back on another thread where AM1010 radio host was talking to a lawyer and the lawyer did say something to the effect of "he was burned in a barrel wasn't he?" and the host replied "yes". I thought even before the news broke about the incinerator, TB was burned in a barrel or while lying deceased on the ground and I just don't understand why LE is being so tight lipped about the fact as to how TB was burned. Other then sensitivity issues, why would they hold this info back? I cannot see it affecting the outcome of a trial. Maybe I am missing something. Anyone care to explain or give their opinion why this evidence is so secretive. MOO

 

[Archangel7]

What sometimes seems obvious may not be the obvious. What I mean is, just because the incinerator was found on DM's property after DM's arrest, it may not have been on the property prior to or during the death of TB. Did DM have the incinerator in the hangar and used it for heat, burning parts from stolen vehicles or whatever else he felt he needed to get rid of? For some reason I envision TM being burned in a barrel or on the ground on DM's property. It's possible DM and MS went back to the farmland the next day and found TB was still identifiable, so did they went to the hangar and get the incinerator (in the picture the incinerator is on a type of trailer for transportation) and bring it to the property with the intention of going back late at night or the wee hours of the morning for finish the 'job'? Did something happen such as the media releasing the disappearance of TB and info about the suspect's tattoo, they got paranoid wondering if they were being watched, therefore never made it back to the farmland before DM was arrested? Was there an article which stated DM was being followed prior to his arrest. Or did DM suspect he was being followed/watched?

When was the first time the neighbour noticed the incinerator on the farmland? The incinerator could have been used in the hangar safely and under cover without anyone aware. Did they decide not to take TB back to the hangar because there may have been blood or DNA evidence they felt could be left behind in the hangar which they couldn't get rid of? Did they use the incinerator before for a person and the smell was too much? Did they dump TB's body at the farmland because there was some activity going on at the airport late that night and were paranoid of being caught? Or did they just want to get rid of TB's deceased body quickly and not take the chance of being caught driving around with him in the truck? We are only going to be privy to these answers through the trial I believe. Just random questions and opinions to consider.

Picture of DM's incinerator on trailer
http://news.ca.msn.com/ontario/brampton/tim-bosma-incinerator-found-at-farm-owned-by-millard

Info on incinerators and uses.
http://www.erosionpollution.com/small-incinerator-for-animal-waste.html

I posted a link back on another thread where AM1010 radio host was talking to a lawyer and the lawyer did say something to the effect of "he was burned in a barrel wasn't he?" and the host replied "yes". I thought even before the news broke about the incinerator, TB was burned in a barrel or while lying deceased on the ground and I just don't understand why LE is being so tight lipped about the fact as to how TB was burned. Other then sensitivity issues, why would they hold this info back? I cannot see it affecting the outcome of a trial. Maybe I am missing something. Anyone care to explain or give their opinion why this evidence is so secretive. MOO

There isn't usually a lot about the finer details of an investigation put out to the public anyway plus I guess the threat of criminal charges for anyone else that puts out info has a lid on it.

I find it amateurish to have a complete publication ban. Hard to be transparent and trusted justice system with a cloak of secrecy over everything. Anyone that is smart enough to be a juror should be smart enough to disregard the BS in some MSM reports. Not that hard to weigh whether the Crown made its case or didn't. moo

 

[Blomquist]

Any contract falls under contract 'law' IMO

 

[swedie]

In my post 332 I used the word for TB as identifiable by which I mean that his body still existed although he was burned beyond recognition.

'Burned beyond recognition'
Bosma's body was found “burned beyond recognition,” Hamilton police said. That adds some challenges to the investigation, Bryan noted.

“A lot of people burn either vehicles or they burn a body to try and get rid of evidence,” he said. “Fire scenes are very often employed to try and destroy evidence such as DNA.”

Police usually identify a body in one of three ways — through dental records, fingerprints or DNA. Fire makes finding a cause of death more difficult, but not impossible, he said.

“It really depends on how much the body was burned,” Bryan said. “I've seen bodies burned to the point that just a skeleton is there … But I've also seen fires where you might not be able to recognize the person, but there's still lots of evidence left there.

“It really depends. Burned beyond recognition is a very open-ended statement.”
http://www.cbc.ca/hamilton/news/story/2013/05/16/hamilton-tim-bosma-case-analyzed.html

AND
Bryan said the mystery surrounding the case is fuelling the public's interest. Investigators have not yet disclosed where Bosma was killed, how he died, an exact time of death or a motive.

“It's because the investigators — and god bless 'em, it's what they have to do — are keeping things close to the vest,” Bryan said. “There's still a few people out there that are unidentified in this and we don't know how close they are to catching up to these people.”

 

[swedie]

My post 332 I asked when the neighbour saw the incinerator on the property. Found the answer. May 10, 2013. It is stated below the picture of the incinerator.

JMO but to me the white tank looks pretty clean as does the rest of the incinerator. I am assuming it hadn't been there long and kept somewhere out of the elements. (No bird droppings, leaf debris). Kept in the hangar... Why would anyone want or need an incinerator unless you were a farmer with animals, a medical facility who needed to destroy wastes ect. Was it used for nefarious reasons? I assume so. Best way to get rid of evidence of any sort IMO. Has anyone come across any pictures taken in the hangar where the incinerator is visible?

-destroying vehicle parts
-stolen property
-other victims :O

Where would one start to sleuth out other missing persons from the past year (besides LB) since the incinerator was purchased? Other reports of stolen vehicles within that area? Makes me wonder if this wasn't their first evil doing.

http://www.cbc.ca/hamilton/news/story/2013/05/15/hamilton-bosma-timeline.html

 

[SnooperDuper]

I guess 'burned beyond recognition' is ambiguous:
- burned so that the remains are not recognizable as TB?
- burned so that the remains are not recognizable as a body?

Just because LE has always referred to 'remains' rather than a 'body', I have always felt that the second statement applied. Really, we don't know.

 

[swedie]

Kinda OT but I like "nosy" neighbours. I wouldn't necessarily classify them as "nosy", but more so observant. IMO we need observant neighbours IMO. These types of people have helped to in many criminal cases. It's too bad there wasn't more of these neighbours in cases such as Jaycee D, and the three abducted, young ladies from Cleveland, Ohio. IMO if you've got nothing to hide, who cares. Couple of examples of observant neighbours: One of our neighbours saw someone going through the neighbour's car across the street, late one night and called the police. Turns out the police caught the perp down the street in someone else's vehicle. My in-laws who lived in the country had their home broken into twice during broad daylight, while they were at work. After the first incident they got an alarm system. The type which sets off a loud siren situated on their roof. The second incident set off the alarm and their neighbour was outside, heard it and rushed over in his vehicle, getting there just in time to see the perps leaving in a full sized white van. He was able to get their licence plate number, make of vehicle and the perps were caught.

If you don't want neighbours gawking in your windows, close your curtains. JMO.

 

[swedie]

I guess 'burned beyond recognition' is ambiguous:
- burned so that the remains are not recognizable as TB?
- burned so that the remains are not recognizable as a body?

Just because LE has always referred to 'remains' rather than a 'body', I have always felt that the second statement applied. Really, we don't know.

Good point SD but I have seen numerous reports which state TB's body, and some reports state his remains. When I read remains I take it when someone dies and their body is found/discovered, LE classify them as remains no matter what method they died from. It's what remains of the person after death. Hope that make sense. And JMO.

Last week, Toronto Police obtained a search warrant and were digging at the Ayr farm property owned by Millard. Earlier this month, Hamilton police located Bosma’s body on the farm “burned beyond recognition.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...de_update_on_missing_woman_laura_babcock.html

Police say Bosma’s body was found burned “beyond recognition” at a location in the Kitchener-Waterloo region.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...spect-to-be-charged-with-first-degree-murder/

Days before the body of Tim Bosma was discovered, Hamilton police speculated that he may have been murdered in a so-called thrill kill, a source has told Torstar News Service.

Also according to the source, police said after Bosma’s body was found that they believed he was killed in his truck following a struggle. “He did not die in the fire,” the source said. “He didn’t burn alive.”

Kavanagh told a news conference on Tuesday that Bosma’s body was found burned “beyond recognition” at an undisclosed location in Waterloo.

http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/676237/tim-bosma-was-likely-killed-in-his-truck-source/

 

[swedie]

From the information we have gleaned thus far, none of it has provided us with information as to how TB died, if the incinerator was used or not, or how LE were able to determine/identify it was TB's remains/body. It is MOO there must have been something obvious at the scene to ID Tim, as it didn't take long for LE to release TB's ID. Tim was ID'ed on the same day he was found. It is JMO SB was handed a small box as she decided to have TB cremated being as she could not have the type of service Tim and her had spoken of in the past and also because of the condition he was found in.

Human remains provide direct evidence of human existence and scientific study can yield information on aspects of their lifestyle including diet, disease, age at death and injuries suffered during their lifetime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Human_remains_(archaeological)

May 14: Bosma's body is found during a police search of Kitchener, Ont., farmland owned by Millard. The body is said to have been burned beyond recognition, but is later confirmed to belong to the missing father.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...ng-suspect-dellen-millard-real-194444078.html

Hamilton Police Chief Glenn De Caire delivered the grisly news of Bosma's death Tuesday morning.

"We are convinced by the totality of the evidence that these are the remains of Tim Bosma," De Caire said. "The evidence indicates that the remains were burned."

http://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/2013/05/14/police-update-tim-bosma-case

And the fact that the incinerator wasn't reported on until a couple days later make me believe it was not involved. JMO but if the incinerator is suppose to be a safe method of disposing of animals, I wouldn't think it would burn the ground under it.

Police have confirmed that an incinerator was found at the North Dumfries farm property belonging to Dellen Millard, but say they’re not sure whether the incinerator is connected to the death of Tim Bosma.

At the farm, two conspicuous police tents remain in place. A man who works on the property says the tents are covering areas which had burn marks.

Read more: http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/inciner...cused-in-bosma-murder-1.1284332#ixzz2Y1PvigWa

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/inciner...elonging-to-accused-in-bosma-murder-1.1284332