The Incinerator

[SnooperDuper]

Good point SD but I have seen numerous reports which state TB's body, and some reports state his remains. When I read remains I take it when someone dies and their body is found/discovered, LE classify them as remains no matter what method they died from. It's what remains of the person after death. Hope that make sense. And JMO.

Last week, Toronto Police obtained a search warrant and were digging at the Ayr farm property owned by Millard. Earlier this month, Hamilton police located Bosma’s body on the farm “burned beyond recognition.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...de_update_on_missing_woman_laura_babcock.html

Police say Bosma’s body was found burned “beyond recognition” at a location in the Kitchener-Waterloo region.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...spect-to-be-charged-with-first-degree-murder/

Days before the body of Tim Bosma was discovered, Hamilton police speculated that he may have been murdered in a so-called thrill kill, a source has told Torstar News Service.

Also according to the source, police said after Bosma’s body was found that they believed he was killed in his truck following a struggle. “He did not die in the fire,” the source said. “He didn’t burn alive.”

Kavanagh told a news conference on Tuesday that Bosma’s body was found burned “beyond recognition” at an undisclosed location in Waterloo.

http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/676237/tim-bosma-was-likely-killed-in-his-truck-source/

Le hasve consistently referred to remains though in their official statements; the word 'body' is the press' interpretation

 

[SnooperDuper]

From the information we have gleaned thus far, none of it has provided us with information as to how TB died, if the incinerator was used or not, or how LE were able to determine/identify it was TB's remains/body. It is MOO there must have been something obvious at the scene to ID Tim, as it didn't take long for LE to release TB's ID. Tim was ID'ed on the same day he was found. It is JMO SB was handed a small box as she decided to have TB cremated being as she could not have the type of service Tim and her had spoken of in the past and also because of the condition he was found in.

Human remains provide direct evidence of human existence and scientific study can yield information on aspects of their lifestyle including diet, disease, age at death and injuries suffered during their lifetime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Human_remains_(archaeological)

May 14: Bosma's body is found during a police search of Kitchener, Ont., farmland owned by Millard. The body is said to have been burned beyond recognition, but is later confirmed to belong to the missing father.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...ng-suspect-dellen-millard-real-194444078.html

Hamilton Police Chief Glenn De Caire delivered the grisly news of Bosma's death Tuesday morning.

"We are convinced by the totality of the evidence that these are the remains of Tim Bosma," De Caire said. "The evidence indicates that the remains were burned."

http://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/2013/05/14/police-update-tim-bosma-case

And the fact that the incinerator wasn't reported on until a couple days later make me believe it was not involved. JMO but if the incinerator is suppose to be a safe method of disposing of animals, I wouldn't think it would burn the ground under it.

Police have confirmed that an incinerator was found at the North Dumfries farm property belonging to Dellen Millard, but say they’re not sure whether the incinerator is connected to the death of Tim Bosma.

At the farm, two conspicuous police tents remain in place. A man who works on the property says the tents are covering areas which had burn marks.

Read more: http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/inciner...cused-in-bosma-murder-1.1284332#ixzz2Y1PvigWa

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/inciner...elonging-to-accused-in-bosma-murder-1.1284332

LE was on the farm on the same day that DM was arrested and the neighbour took the photo of the incinerator (Friday May 10) so they were aware of the incinerator then. The internet and press tried to get more information out of LE but LE did not confirm even the existence of the incinerator until the 16th despite the photo evidence.

Just because LE chose not to release information in the initial days of the investigation does not mean they were ignorant of the incinerator. In fact, quite the opposite: the neighbour spoke with LE the same Friday and no doubt LE jumped to investigate the device.

It boggles the mind how anyone would own a purpose built device for destroying human remains and not use it. Why have it then? DM had no legitimate use for a device designed to burn high moisture remains. This was not a device that was used for heat or incinerating scrap. I think it was purpose bought to execute 'the perfect crime', making someone disappear into thin air.

If LE is unsure if the incinerator was used or not, that suggests that TB's remains were not found inside of it. The device has a hatch at the bottom for emptying it. The scorch marks near the incinerator could be the remains that were emptied from the device. Given LE was working with sifters on the site, they were looking for something extremely fine like incinerated ash and bone, IMO

 

[Archangel7]

LE was on the farm on the same day that DM was arrested and the neighbour took the photo of the incinerator (Friday May 10) so they were aware of the incinerator then. The internet and press tried to get more information out of LE but LE did not confirm even the existence of the incinerator until the 16th despite the photo evidence.

Just because LE chose not to release information in the initial days of the investigation does not mean they were ignorant of the incinerator. In fact, quite the opposite: the neighbour spoke with LE the same Friday and no doubt LE jumped to investigate the device.

It boggles the mind how anyone would own a purpose built device for destroying human remains and not use it. Why have it then? DM had no legitimate use for a device designed to burn high moisture remains. This was not a device that was used for heat or incinerating scrap. I think it was purpose bought to execute 'the perfect crime', making someone disappear into thin air.

If LE is unsure if the incinerator was used or not, that suggests that TB's remains were not found inside of it. The device has a hatch at the bottom for emptying it. The scorch marks near the incinerator could be the remains that were emptied from the device. Given LE was working with sifters on the site, they were looking for something extremely fine like incinerated ash and bone, IMO

Yes. The internal refractory would keep the steel skin relatively cool to prevent igniting the trailer, grass, etc.

Maybe it was used to destroy personal effects in the truck etc, or worse.
Or due to dimensional issues, both the ground and the incinerator were used.
The truck seats went somewhere too.
moo

 

[SnooperDuper]

Yes. The internal refractory would keep the steel skin relatively cool to prevent igniting the trailer, grass, etc.

Maybe it was used to destroy personal effects in the truck etc, or worse.
Or due to dimensional issues, both the ground and the incinerator was used.
The truck seats went somewhere too.
moo

Keep in mind that DM had three full days to operate this machine on the privacy of his own land, hidden by the woods. The Friday he was arrested he was being followed by police until he was arrested in the west end of TO...so Friday is out.

But something drew the neighbours to investigate a location on the edge of the woods, outside of line of sight from the farm next door. Smell? Noise? Lights travelling back to the woods? Perhaps there was more activity at DM's farm on Thursday night, and that piqued the neighbours curiosity and provoked them to investigate the next morning.

We can't assume DM wrapped up everything on the farm in an hour Monday night and then went on the rest of the week to sit on his hands and wait to be picked up. Likely, covering the tracks of his crime took several days.

Such a pointless crime: I hope May 10, 2013 will be the last day DM ever walked this earth as a free man.

 

[Snoofo]

Such a pointless crime: I hope May 10, 2013 will be the last day DM ever walked this earth as a free man.

I hope so too, if he is the murderer.

 

[Archangel7]

Keep in mind that DM had three full days to operate this machine on the privacy of his own land, hidden by the woods. The Friday he was arrested he was being followed by police until he was arrested in the west end of TO...so Friday is out.

But something drew the neighbours to investigate a location on the edge of the woods, outside of line of sight from the farm next door. Smell? Noise? Lights travelling back to the woods? Perhaps there was more activity at DM's farm on Thursday night, and that piqued the neighbours curiosity and provoked them to investigate the next morning.

We can't assume DM wrapped up everything on the farm in an hour Monday night and then went on the rest of the week to sit on his hands and wait to be picked up. Likely, covering the tracks of his crime took several days.

Such a pointless crime: I hope May 10, 2013 will be the last day DM ever walked this earth as a free man.

A senseless and unnecessary tragedy.

Just from past experiences with industrial burners.....

For efficient burner operation, frequently some form of forced draft, from a blower, is needed/used.
The pictures don't show much however I remember 120v electrical being required which usually indicates a blower for the burner.

These things would cause the unit to be noisy and more so if some form of portable electric generator was used at the time to supply that 120V power.

Anyway, with the activity and noise, it could certainly draw neighborly attention.
moo

 

[Snoofo]

A senseless and unnecessary tragedy.

Just from past experiences with industrial burners.....

For efficient burner operation, frequently some form of forced draft, from a blower, is needed/used.
The pictures don't show much however I remember 120v electrical being required which usually indicates a blower for the burner.

These things would cause the unit to be noisy and more so if some form of portable electric generator was used at the time to supply that 120V power.

Anyway, with the activity and noise, it could certainly draw neighborly attention.
moo

I wonder if it did draw attention. ..in that someone may have reported the date/time of noise and activity heard? Now THAT would be useful information!

I ask, if a local did report this after the fact, but LE found it did not align with their story and timeline for MS and/or DM, would that information have to be included in the disclosure?

 

[Archangel7]

I wonder if it did draw attention. ..in that someone may have reported the date/time of noise and activity heard? Now THAT would be useful information!

I ask, if a local did report this after the fact, but LE found it did not align with their story and timeline for MS and/or DM, would that information have to be included in the disclosure?

The short answer is yes. IMO
It is called exculpatory evidence. The prosecutor isn't bound to search for it, but ALL the evidence he and the "State" has, must be disclosed.

I am assuming it is true in Canada also, as a Democratic society.

 

[Alethea Dice]

The short answer is yes. IMO
It is called exculpatory evidence. The prosecutor isn't bound to search for it, but ALL the evidence he and the "State" has, must be disclosed.

I am assuming it is true in Canada also, as a Democratic society.

Yes, it is the same in Canada. I had posted this link and info earlier.

30. What is disclosure? Does the defence have to disclose its case to the Crown?
The Criminal Code obliges the Crown to disclose their case to the defence, as the accused has a right to obtain ‘discovery’ of the prosecution’s case against him/her. The Supreme Court of Canada has ruled that the Crown is under a duty to disclose all the material it proposes to use at trial and, in particular, all evidence that may assist the accused in mounting his or her defence even if the Crown does not propose to place such evidence before the court.” The Supreme Court also ruled that “there is no reciprocal obligation on the accused to assist the prosecution.” Thus, the Crown must always disclose its case. The defence is not required to disclose except where they plan to use expert evidence or alibis.

http://crcvc.ca/docs/Navigating-the-Canadian-CJS.pdf

 

[SnooperDuper]

Ok I finally found this quote I have been looking for about the neighbour:

A woman answered the front door of the house on a well-groomed property on a hill overlooking the police investigation.

Her dog barked at her side.

Yes, she knew what was going on at the bottom of the hill.

No, she did not care to comment.

The rural Roseville property is shrouded by dense forest on either side of the area police appear to be searching.

http://www.therecord.com/sports-story/3242980-bosma-found-dead-in-region/

If DM was making any noise at night with the incinerator, driving up to the woods, etc. well there is a dog next door that would hear it. If the dog was barking through the night, that may have provoked the neighbour to go check out the source of the noise in the night.

 

[Archangel7]

Ok I finally found this quote I have been looking for about the neighbour:

A woman answered the front door of the house on a well-groomed property on a hill overlooking the police investigation.

Her dog barked at her side.

Yes, she knew what was going on at the bottom of the hill.

No, she did not care to comment.

The rural Roseville property is shrouded by dense forest on either side of the area police appear to be searching.

http://www.therecord.com/sports-story/3242980-bosma-found-dead-in-region/

If DM was making any noise at night with the incinerator, driving up to the woods, etc. well there is a dog next door that would hear it. If the dog was barking through the night, that may have provoked the neighbour to go check out the source of the noise in the night.

bbm

And it would certainly be reasonable to expect them to check in the morning or later, after activities ceased. IMO

 

[Eljo]

LE was on the farm on the same day that DM was arrested and the neighbour took the photo of the incinerator (Friday May 10) so they were aware of the incinerator then. The internet and press tried to get more information out of LE but LE did not confirm even the existence of the incinerator until the 16th despite the photo evidence.

Just because LE chose not to release information in the initial days of the investigation does not mean they were ignorant of the incinerator. In fact, quite the opposite: the neighbour spoke with LE the same Friday and no doubt LE jumped to investigate the device.

It boggles the mind how anyone would own a purpose built device for destroying human remains and not use it. Why have it then? DM had no legitimate use for a device designed to burn high moisture remains. This was not a device that was used for heat or incinerating scrap. I think it was purpose bought to execute 'the perfect crime', making someone disappear into thin air.

If LE is unsure if the incinerator was used or not, that suggests that TB's remains were not found inside of it. The device has a hatch at the bottom for emptying it. The scorch marks near the incinerator could be the remains that were emptied from the device. Given LE was working with sifters on the site, they were looking for something extremely fine like incinerated ash and bone, IMO

Agree with pretty much everything you've said. One thing I'd like to know from those of you who have been around this site for awhile and followed other cases. Would it be uncommon for LE to say they're unsure about something to later find out that they were aware? Specifically wondering about not being sure if the incinerator was used or not. Could that just be a way of diverting public attention until trial??

 

[Archangel7]

Agree with pretty much everything you've said. One thing I'd like to know from those of you who have been around this site for awhile and followed other cases. Would it be uncommon for LE to say they're unsure about something to later find out that they were aware? Specifically wondering about not being sure if the incinerator was used or not. Could that just be a way of diverting public attention until trial??

I haven't been around that long on WS, but allow me to propose this...

In LE, it is never good to lie to the public via TV, newspapers etc.
It always comes back to haunt you either in court or public trust and cooperation. The public will forgive a mistake or a "we don't know," but not a lie.

It is much better to "no comment" or say "the proper place for that question is in court." There are of course cultural differences in LE in North America obviously, so things can be different even across jurisdictions.

IMO it is a very troubling and slippery slope when a free and democratic society is lied to by the ones sworn to serve and protect.

Having said that, it isn't against the law to tell an absolute lie as in the example of a LE undercover agent denying being a cop to a suspect, drug dealer, etc.
moo

 

[Eljo]

I haven't been around that long on WS, but allow me to propose this...

In LE, it is never good to lie to the public via TV, newspapers etc.
It always comes back to haunt you either in court or public trust and cooperation. The public will forgive a mistake or a "we don't know," but not a lie.

It is much better to "no comment" or say "the proper place for that question is in court." There are of course cultural differences in LE in North America obviously, so things can be different even across jurisdictions.

IMO it is a very troubling and slippery slope when a free and democratic society is lied to by the ones sworn to serve and protect.

Having said that, it isn't against the law to tell an absolute lie as in the example of a LE undercover agent denying being a cop to a suspect, drug dealer, etc.
moo

I wasn't suggesting they lied but rather may have expressed uncertainty intentionally.

 

[swedie]

Keep in mind that DM had three full days to operate this machine on the privacy of his own land, hidden by the woods. The Friday he was arrested he was being followed by police until he was arrested in the west end of TO...so Friday is out.

But something drew the neighbours to investigate a location on the edge of the woods, outside of line of sight from the farm next door. Smell? Noise? Lights travelling back to the woods? Perhaps there was more activity at DM's farm on Thursday night, and that piqued the neighbours curiosity and provoked them to investigate the next morning.

We can't assume DM wrapped up everything on the farm in an hour Monday night and then went on the rest of the week to sit on his hands and wait to be picked up. Likely, covering the tracks of his crime took several days.

Such a pointless crime: I hope May 10, 2013 will be the last day DM ever walked this earth as a free man.

BBM above I absolutely agree, if he is guilty. IMO I believe he is. If DM had enemies or owed money to anyone and they framed him, that information would have come out by now by DM himself and the real perps would be sitting in jail.

For all we know, it could have been the observant neighbour who called in tips to LE which led to the arrest of DM. This neighbour may have met DM at one time or another on the property in the past year since he purchased it. He could have noticed the tattoo during an encounter. After the news of TB's disappearance, and the description given by the guy who also took suspects for a test drive the day before, the neighbour may have recalled DM having a tattoo. May 10th he went to DM's property looking around out of suspicion and found the incinerator and other evidence.

IIRC LE obtained search warrants on the 11th and 12th to search DM's property according to the video. As I mentioned in one of my above posts and posted the definition, I would think generally speaking LE will refer to a deceased person's body as remains. If DM was guilty, he may not have went back to the farmland because he knew or was paranoid he was being followed or watched. All JMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qPVdl21Qrio

 

[swedie]

Was there something in the MSM shortly after DM's arrest where it was stated DM and friends sometimes hung out on the farmland property? A picnic table was there? Anyone recall that being out there? :waitasec:

 

[SnooperDuper]

Was there something in the MSM shortly after DM's arrest where it was stated DM and friends sometimes hung out on the farmland property? A picnic table was there? Anyone recall that being out there? :waitasec:

The previous owner said:

“It seems a desecration of the land,” said Mrs. Snider. “We had a lot of good times there. Where the police tent is set up was our picnic area.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/17/dellen-millard-suspect-in-tim-bosmas-death-was-always-a-little-different-classmate-says/

 

[Archangel7]

I wasn't suggesting they lied but rather may have expressed uncertainty intentionally.

I didn't take your post that way anyway. My apologies if it appeared that way.

I was only presenting the concept of addressing the public media truthfully at a presser, for example or simply refusing to comment on the question publicly.

We get quite off track here sometimes with presented info that is ambiguous and uncertain and so will the public. Ideally you'd like the public to be on the ball with good LE info. Doing that fosters good tips. IMO

 

[Archangel7]

The previous owner said:

“It seems a desecration of the land,” said Mrs. Snider. “We had a lot of good times there. Where the police tent is set up was our picnic area.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/17/dellen-millard-suspect-in-tim-bosmas-death-was-always-a-little-different-classmate-says/

Pretty sorry of whomever has done this, you know it has traumatized those folk. They are probably doing what if's.

 

[CanuckSleuth]

There was reference to DM and his friends seen at the house in Etobicoke on the Wednesday. Also the same night the trailer holding TB's truck arrived at the home of MB.
Moo since I'm too tired to search for the articles to link.