The Incinerator

[swedie]

The only picture I saw of a Bobcat in a building was in Manitoba, where the owner of the picture was working at the time. I haven't seen one in the hangar.

The excavating of the swampy area of the farm was being done in March, according to the neighbour who took the pictures. Maybe that's why it was "hidden" in the swampy area by what appears to be a corn field - because that's where they were excavating.

https://twitter.com/trevorjdunn/media/grid

The temperatures in March ranged from highs of 26.8 C to lows of -12.9 C. The water in the swamp wasn't frozen.

http://www.theweathernetwork.com/weather/historical-weather/canada/ontario/ancaster

JMO

BBM Could you provide a link please and TIA.

Oh I guess we were viewing different pictures then. I am speaking of the black, white and red Bobcat, the same one taken away on a flatbed truck from DM's farmland. The neighbour also took a picture of it. You were looking at the big yellow backhoe machine so HTH. Was that yellow one carted away also, I don't recall. TIA.

I did mention winter but at the end of my post wrote December but who knows when the red, black and white Bobcat was brought out to the farmland. Obviously the neighbour knew it was there in March as he took pictures. It could have been sitting hidden in the bush prior to March. Looking closer at the picture, it appears the Bobcat is in the field...Maybe the location where LE were digging during their search in May? IMO the ground is still hard to work in winter months and most people wait until at least the snow is gone from the ground, but that is just my opinion and understanding.

https://twitter.com/trevorjdunn/status/334447222827675648/photo/1

Pictures of Bobcat being taken from DM's property on flatbed truck.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=Bobc...Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D209826;640;491

 

[Arnie M]

(snip) ..... Alethea ....I do remember seeing those pics and noticing(i think I even mentioned it then)that the engine is being worked on/pulled.
Was it a contractor doing it or was it DM & friends(with a yellow rental trackhoe?)

Is there any wetlands permitting needed? Around here we can't even harm the dandelions, thanks to the current regime, I'm told. Should it be any different there on the environment? Just trying to determine how odd excavating in wetlands would actually be?

Archangel7

The spot where the (broken down) excavator sat is what would be called a swamp , pothole , "low spot'' or "dugout" in country vernacular

It is not unusual to dig in those areas .... either to improve drainage to the swamp ... or away from the swamp ... to make surrounding farmland more productive .... that would be important from a farmers perspective .... less important to DM

Unless he (DM) was trying to create a water supply for his (intended) home .... in that case he may have been excavating a "dugout" .... these are excavated 10-20 feet deep , usually in a natural low lying area (swamp) ... rainwater and snow melt is retained there year round ... a plastic waterpipe is then trenched in to the home ... and it is an excellent water supply (soft water)(rain water)

To negate any possibility of the water going "swampy" again (algae) a low cost windmill can also be used to constantly pump compressed air into the reservoir and the bubbling effect (oxygen) will further purify the water and also help prevent it from freezing in winter.

From the backhoe operators perspective it would be considered a "small side job" ... a fill-in for his off season ... and often that is end of summer - beginning of winter ... which fits with the pictures showing snow on the ground. It can actually be an advantage to do it after the ground starts to freeze .... less swamp muck around the perimeter... and all round best conditions for digging in a swampy area.

Typically these jobs are done by local low budget operators and it is common to repair engine breakdowns right on site ... evidenced by the plywood hoarding and windbreaks assembled around the machine. When they break down you cannot call a tow truck or even load it onto a deck ... they are on tracks and cannot be rolled around. They bring all the tools to the location and "dress warm" to do the repair. This is fairly common.

For those reasons I feel the digging equipment is most likely there for legitimate and understandable purposes.

I feel it is highly unlikely such a large piece of excavation equipment would be employed for disposing of small items requiring burial

AM

 

[Arnie M]

Well thats a twisting of words if ever I have seen it.... it is feasible that people on the peripheries of this case may be involved...itgoes without saying imo.... No-one is sleuthing the neighbours here...just pointing out any anomalies.... such as ignoring LE advice... trespassing at a very opportune moment, and snapping a pic possibly before the farm was ever identified as a relevant crime scene. Not to mention (but I will) that they had been on the property PRIOR to when this all went down...... we have no idea why....but many here have suggested that a property without a fence is open to all at any time according to the rules of trespass... (not sure why its ok to roam across someone elses property in the middle of nowhere (remote) to take a look at something that may or may not be there). I have never dreamed of taking a walk through property belonging to another just to view what may or may not be there....let alone go back for a snapshot..... JMO

<modsnip>

Farmers and rural folks are the most respectful people in Canada when it comes to trespass and private property. But when you are living in a rural setting , know all your neighbors , rent land from your neighbors , rent land to your neighbors , hunt with your neighbors , it is very common to enter , walk through , drive through , hunt on neighbor property.

It is an understood "community" norm .... and in cases where folks do not want hunting or ATV's on their land it is always respected and understood and honored.

The majority of the time it is never seen as trespass to enter someones (farmland) property .... it can be quite common , the actual yardsite and home is a different matter ... a neighbor visitor would go directly to the door and knock ... if no one is home he would never go snooping around or take pictures.

It is a rural culture and you have to live it to understand it.

<modsnip> The neighbors on Roseville Road are completely normal. <mod snip> Thanks and best wishes.

AM

 

[Arnie M]

sbm

Illogical.

Reconciling the "selfies," DNA, prints, hair, alibi, etc. with justification to be there, the timeline of the crime, how it was done, yada, yada would either point to you if you were involved or not, thus excluding you. See, that's the wonderful thing about evidence, it isn't prejudicial(by definition) or emotional........and tells whom is and isn't involved.

Thank you for your clarity and all your educational posts Archangel7 ,

<modsnip>

 

[Snoofo]

Arnie your post #882 was very informative. Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the matter of digging in and around the swamp.

To add to the information provided by AletheaD on conservation authorities, properties in North Dumfries would be regulated, if necessary, by the Grand River Conservation Authority. Unless I'm getting DM's farm property limits wrong, it doesnt appear to fall into a regulated area requiring a permit for construction. Those looking for something fun to do (not really) can view the map on the grca website grandriver.ca - planning & regulations -map your property. (Sorry, I "agreed" not to share my map from the site).

An "official" confirmation as to the watershed area limits and your property, requirements for permits or not, etc. would have to come from the conservation authority though, after payment of a fee for the inquiry and submitting a survey/plan.

 

[Alethea Dice]

BBM Could you provide a link please and TIA.

Oh I guess we were viewing different pictures then. I am speaking of the black, white and red Bobcat, the same one taken away on a flatbed truck from DM's farmland. The neighbour also took a picture of it. You were looking at the big yellow backhoe machine so HTH. Was that yellow one carted away also, I don't recall. TIA.

I did mention winter but at the end of my post wrote December but who knows when the red, black and white Bobcat was brought out to the farmland. Obviously the neighbour knew it was there in March as he took pictures. It could have been sitting hidden in the bush prior to March. Looking closer at the picture, it appears the Bobcat is in the field...Maybe the location where LE were digging during their search in May? IMO the ground is still hard to work in winter months and most people wait until at least the snow is gone from the ground, but that is just my opinion and understanding.

https://twitter.com/trevorjdunn/status/334447222827675648/photo/1

Pictures of Bobcat being taken from DM's property on flatbed truck.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=Bobc...Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D209826;640;491

I'm not sure what you're asking here. The yellow backhoe picture does show the water wasn't frozen, but I'm looking at the red, white and black Bobcat. The one being towed by LE, and the one in the neighbour's picture, looks the same as the one in the picture in the building in Manitoba. I don't know if the backhoe was also towed away and have found nothing to say if it was.

I believe Arnie has already answered your question about excavating in the winter.

HTH

 

[swanna]

Archangel7

The spot where the (broken down) excavator sat is what would be called a swamp , pothole , "low spot'' or "dugout" in country vernacular

It is not unusual to dig in those areas .... either to improve drainage to the swamp ... or away from the swamp ... to make surrounding farmland more productive .... that would be important from a farmers perspective .... less important to DM

Unless he (DM) was trying to create a water supply for his (intended) home .... in that case he may have been excavating a "dugout" .... these are excavated 10-20 feet deep , usually in a natural low lying area (swamp) ... rainwater and snow melt is retained there year round ... a plastic waterpipe is then trenched in to the home ... and it is an excellent water supply (soft water)(rain water)

To negate any possibility of the water going "swampy" again (algae) a low cost windmill can also be used to constantly pump compressed air into the reservoir and the bubbling effect (oxygen) will further purify the water and also help prevent it from freezing in winter.

From the backhoe operators perspective it would be considered a "small side job" ... a fill-in for his off season ... and often that is end of summer - beginning of winter ... which fits with the pictures showing snow on the ground. It can actually be an advantage to do it after the ground starts to freeze .... less swamp muck around the perimeter... and all round best conditions for digging in a swampy area.

Typically these jobs are done by local low budget operators and it is common to repair engine breakdowns right on site ... evidenced by the plywood hoarding and windbreaks assembled around the machine. When they break down you cannot call a tow truck or even load it onto a deck ... they are on tracks and cannot be rolled around. They bring all the tools to the location and "dress warm" to do the repair. This is fairly common.

For those reasons I feel the digging equipment is most likely there for legitimate and understandable purposes.

I feel it is highly unlikely such a large piece of excavation equipment would be employed for disposing of small items requiring burial

AM

:goodpost:Thanks Arnie....seeing as my father had his own business for many years with heavy equipment he worked many jobs when the ground was still frozen. Sometimes the spring is so wet and/or ground so soft that it is hard to get into a job site.

He also was glad when it was a winter with less snow because then he could get back to work with the equipment sooner (no work = no money). :moo:

Forgot to mention that my Dad's first name is also Arnie....lol

 

[Arnie M]

A quick question ... the Incinerator was purchased and delivered July 2012 .... LB was last heard from July 2012 .... is that correct ?

I expect that "timeline" has been discussed and I probably missed it

thanks

 

[robynhood]

..seems correct to the best of my knowledge >>>to Arnie....robynhood

 

[cansleuther]

A quick question ... the Incinerator was purchased and delivered July 2012 .... LB was last heard from July 2012 .... is that correct ?

DM also travelled throughout Europe with his family in the summer of 2012. Most of the photos of the trip have been removed from FB but it appears that he was in Croatia in June and Greece in August, so it is possible (but not confirmed) he was out of the country for the entire summer.

 

[Archangel7]

Arnie, re: post 884..you're very welcome.

And thank you sincerely also for the following post of yours, included here below.......... as it confirms my thoughts on the possibility it was an unrelated "innocent" event.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnie M View Post
Archangel7

The spot where the (broken down) excavator sat is what would be called a swamp , pothole , "low spot'' or "dugout" in country vernacular

It is not unusual to dig in those areas .... either to improve drainage to the swamp ... or away from the swamp ... to make surrounding farmland more productive .... that would be important from a farmers perspective .... less important to DM

Unless he (DM) was trying to create a water supply for his (intended) home .... in that case he may have been excavating a "dugout" .... these are excavated 10-20 feet deep , usually in a natural low lying area (swamp) ... rainwater and snow melt is retained there year round ... a plastic waterpipe is then trenched in to the home ... and it is an excellent water supply (soft water)(rain water)

To negate any possibility of the water going "swampy" again (algae) a low cost windmill can also be used to constantly pump compressed air into the reservoir and the bubbling effect (oxygen) will further purify the water and also help prevent it from freezing in winter.

From the backhoe operators perspective it would be considered a "small side job" ... a fill-in for his off season ... and often that is end of summer - beginning of winter ... which fits with the pictures showing snow on the ground. It can actually be an advantage to do it after the ground starts to freeze .... less swamp muck around the perimeter... and all round best conditions for digging in a swampy area.

Typically these jobs are done by local low budget operators and it is common to repair engine breakdowns right on site ... evidenced by the plywood hoarding and windbreaks assembled around the machine. When they break down you cannot call a tow truck or even load it onto a deck ... they are on tracks and cannot be rolled around. They bring all the tools to the location and "dress warm" to do the repair. This is fairly common.

For those reasons I feel the digging equipment is most likely there for legitimate and understandable purposes.

I feel it is highly unlikely such a large piece of excavation equipment would be employed for disposing of small items requiring burial

AM

 

[Blomquist]

<modsnip>

Farmers and rural folks are the most respectful people in Canada when it comes to trespass and private property. But when you are living in a rural setting , know all your neighbors , rent land from your neighbors , rent land to your neighbors , hunt with your neighbors , it is very common to enter , walk through , drive through , hunt on neighbor property.

It is an understood "community" norm .... and in cases where folks do not want hunting or ATV's on their land it is always respected and understood and honored.

The majority of the time it is never seen as trespass to enter someones (farmland) property .... it can be quite common , the actual yardsite and home is a different matter ... a neighbor visitor would go directly to the door and knock ... if no one is home he would never go snooping around or take pictures.

It is a rural culture and you have to live it to understand it.

<modsnip> The neighbors on Roseville Road are completely normal.<mod snip> Thanks and best wishes.

AM

<modsnip>
I have very close family who live in the country who hunt etc etc... and I KNOW that many neighbours get extremely irate when people hunt on their land without permission.Also... I know for a fact that not ALL country folk enjoy their property being trampled over....<modsnip> jmo

 

[Arnie M]

swanna .... I can assure you your dad is a cool guy with a name like Arnie .... tell him I said that .... I have done many things in life and operated lots of equipment ... including earth moving equipment and backhoes .... for some reason I love digging dirt !!!!! I have also repaired construction equipment outside in the winter at -30* and I can assure you I did not love that !!!!! May I also assure you I have never dug holes and buried anything for nefarious reasons best wishes. A.M.

Thank you robynhood and cansleuther .... it would change some of my per-conceived notions if DM was away during the summer of 2012 .

Althea Dice et al ... to me the Bobcat looks pretty ancient .... probably still runs but they are useless for digging .... mostly used for moving loose dirt or spreading gravel or used in barns for clean outs or clearing snow etc. ... It is quite possibly old "hangar equipment" used for clearing snow around airport buildings etc ... just a guess

Several times you have mentioned seeing a Bobcat in a building in Manitoba .... do you think it was the same machine or just something similar ? ... do you recall which area of Manitoba ? I am there on occasion.

Other trivia .... one picture of the DM Bobcat showed a big chunk of frozen dirt stuck to the side and track (wintertime) and it appeared to have been recently "lifted out" of the muck (not driven out) ... my guess it could have been part of the backhoe digging operation that sat for a while in muck in the swamp area. It is also my guess that the wintertime Bobcat picture was taken by one of the sleuthing neighbors ... does anyone know ?

Regardless ... LE would probably take it away to a sheltered building to check it over thoroughly ... regardless of who owned it .... and yes , possibly it was stolen.... plenty of construction equipment gets stolen ... but I rather doubt it ... (too old and little value)

Thanks to all
AM

 

[fran]

Attention Please!

Hey folks. This is a holiday weekend and most moderators are enjoying the last long weekend of summer. I haven't been moderating on this thread, but I'm all you got for the moment.

Knock of the personal comments and uncalled for harsh words. It is AGAINST TOS and you've been warned.

tia
fran

 

[Sillybilly]

<modsnip>
Farmers and rural folks are the most respectful people in Canada when it comes to trespass and private property. But when you are living in a rural setting , know all your neighbors , rent land from your neighbors , rent land to your neighbors , hunt with your neighbors , it is very common to enter , walk through , drive through , hunt on neighbor property.

It is an understood "community" norm .... and in cases where folks do not want hunting or ATV's on their land it is always respected and understood and honored.

The majority of the time it is never seen as trespass to enter someones (farmland) property .... it can be quite common , the actual yardsite and home is a different matter ... a neighbor visitor would go directly to the door and knock ... if no one is home he would never go snooping around or take pictures.

It is a rural culture and you have to live it to understand it.

<modnsip> The neighbors on Roseville Road are completely normal. <mod snip> Thanks and best wishes.

AM

ITA Arnie. My family were settlers in Ontario, and for almost 150 years, our family home was in a very rural setting. Although I worked in the city for many years, my home was also remote acreage a couple of hours north of Toronto. I had snowmobilers cut across my property, cottagers stroll through in the summer, hunters occasionally came by to ask permission (which I wouldn't give because I loved the deer), but it was never an issue, and I sure as shoot don't know any property owner who ever considered those folks to be trespassers. Had things been rowdy or certain people were constantly violating privacy or whatnot, we could stand our ground, but I don't ever recall it being necessary for our family or the many, many rural families who had lived there for generations.

Generally we were all gentile, amicable property owners who had no issues with folks who arrived on our land.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Althea Dice et al ... to me the Bobcat looks pretty ancient .... probably still runs but they are useless for digging .... mostly used for moving loose dirt or spreading gravel or used in barns for clean outs or clearing snow etc. ... It is quite possibly old "hangar equipment" used for clearing snow around airport buildings etc ... just a guess

Several times you have mentioned seeing a Bobcat in a building in Manitoba .... do you think it was the same machine or just something similar ? ... do you recall which area of Manitoba ? I am there on occasion.

No, I don't think it is the same Bobcat at all. It was a rental used for the job there. I mentioned it twice, but only because I wondered if there was a possibility that Swedie had thought the building in Manitoba was the hangar. I was just trying to clarify that I was indeed looking at the same machine (the Bobcat) that she was, and not the backhoe. There seemed to be some confusion.

HTH

 

[skatergirl]

Hope this helps

Mr. Lerner said he met with Mr. Millard in August

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-with-babcocks-disappearance/article12332413/

Doesn't say specific date, just August

 

[Alethea Dice]

They must have met sometime at the end of July or early August.

Mr. Lerner said he met with Mr. Millard in August

He said he confronted Millard on July 27, 2012, with Babcock&#8217;s phone records.

 

[swedie]

ITA Arnie. My family were settlers in Ontario, and for almost 150 years, our family home was in a very rural setting. Although I worked in the city for many years, my home was also remote acreage a couple of hours north of Toronto. I had snowmobilers cut across my property, cottagers stroll through in the summer, hunters occasionally came by to ask permission (which I wouldn't give because I loved the deer), but it was never an issue, and I sure as shoot don't know any property owner who ever considered those folks to be trespassers. Had things been rowdy or certain people were constantly violating privacy or whatnot, we could stand our ground, but I don't ever recall it being necessary for our family or the many, many rural families who had lived there for generations.

Generally we were all gentile, amicable property owners who had no issues with folks who arrived on our land.

Agreed SB. My DH's side of the family is mostly made up of farmers with oodles of farmland and they are very amicable and would not object to the odd person on their land with good/logical intentions. For those who do not appreciate or want trespassers, it is well known they will post NO TRESPASSING OR HUNTING signs near the entrances of their property. You know those bring neon orange/red and black signs?! I cannot say as I have seen one on any tree or post to the entrance of DM's property which is apparently the main entrance. I see bouquets of flowers/a makeshift memorial for TB, but no trespassing sign.

Again, who's to say DM did not welcome his neighbour onto his property, very well could be he was renting his land to that neighbour or "worker" who snapped the photos. Could be DM asked the neighbour to keep an eye on the work being done back in the swamp to make sure they were doing their job, not slacking off and billing DM for excessive hours. e.i., neighbour took pictures for DM to show broken down equipment therefore no work was being done. MOO.

 

[swedie]

Archangel7

The spot where the (broken down) excavator sat is what would be called a swamp , pothole , "low spot'' or "dugout" in country vernacular

It is not unusual to dig in those areas .... either to improve drainage to the swamp ... or away from the swamp ... to make surrounding farmland more productive .... that would be important from a farmers perspective .... less important to DM

Unless he (DM) was trying to create a water supply for his (intended) home .... in that case he may have been excavating a "dugout" .... these are excavated 10-20 feet deep , usually in a natural low lying area (swamp) ... rainwater and snow melt is retained there year round ... a plastic waterpipe is then trenched in to the home ... and it is an excellent water supply (soft water)(rain water)

To negate any possibility of the water going "swampy" again (algae) a low cost windmill can also be used to constantly pump compressed air into the reservoir and the bubbling effect (oxygen) will further purify the water and also help prevent it from freezing in winter.

From the backhoe operators perspective it would be considered a "small side job" ... a fill-in for his off season ... and often that is end of summer - beginning of winter ... which fits with the pictures showing snow on the ground. It can actually be an advantage to do it after the ground starts to freeze .... less swamp muck around the perimeter... and all round best conditions for digging in a swampy area.

Typically these jobs are done by local low budget operators and it is common to repair engine breakdowns right on site ... evidenced by the plywood hoarding and windbreaks assembled around the machine. When they break down you cannot call a tow truck or even load it onto a deck ... they are on tracks and cannot be rolled around. They bring all the tools to the location and "dress warm" to do the repair. This is fairly common.

For those reasons I feel the digging equipment is most likely there for legitimate and understandable purposes.

I feel it is highly unlikely such a large piece of excavation equipment would be employed for disposing of small items requiring burial

AM

Very informative and interesting post(s) Arnie. Thanks you for filling me in on why someone would chose to work farmland grounds in the winter months.

I guess farming and general construction are two different things. I was thinking more along the lines of construction/building I guess. :goldstar: