The Incinerator

[swedie]

Excellent analysis. I think it's very clear what model it is now (I've tended not to get involved in the 'which model is it' debates, but I think this pretty much sums it up). Doesn't this also mean the model cost more like $15,000 than $6,000?

I've seen the red marks on the tire, chain, etc that you mention, but they look too bright/bordering on magenta hues to be blood, which would have surely oxidized browner (unless the neighbor took photos sooner than we know?). It looks like red spray paint to me.

I could be wrong AE but I am thinking the incinerator itself was $6000 and then the remaining $9000 was for the trailer, propane tank and transportation? :moo:

 

[ArianeEmory]

I could be wrong AE but I am thinking the incinerator itself was $6000 and then the remaining $9000 was for the trailer, propane tank and transportation? :moo:

Could be. I am admittedly parroting numbers I've seen elsewhere in the thread. However, I did think $6000 was for the smaller model.

 

[Snoofo]

OT :yesss: The coward. Unless someone murdered him... he is where he belongs; hell. MOO

Ariel Castro: Convicted Cleveland kidnapper/rapist found dead in cell

http://www.19actionnews.com/story/23331636/convicted-cleveland-kidnapper-hangs-himself

Funny you should mention. I don't always agree with the politics and opinions of comedian Dennis Miller, but years ago i heard his advice to child molesters, being this: I don't know what horrible events from your own past brought you to this point in life, but if you have an uncontrollable need to rape a child, do everyone a favour and just kill yourself instead. Of course this advice is to be taken before the sexual and other abuses occur. Castro probably killed himself because he can't rape young girls anymore.

 

[Arnie M]

I've seen the red marks on the tire, chain, etc that you mention, but they look too bright/bordering on magenta hues to be blood, which would have surely oxidized browner (unless the neighbor took photos sooner than we know?). It looks like red spray paint to me.

Thanks AE ... I agree the red hue on the tire looks a bit too bright to be blood ... could be a photo quality issue too .... all things considered it is actually a pretty good quality picture seeing as it was taken with a cellphone.

Mostly I wanted to point out the "red on the chains" are actually "load binders" used to clamp down items .... they attach to the chain and then "pull it tight" with a lever action .... see picture below ..

AM

 

[ArianeEmory]

Thanks AE ... I agree the red hue on the tire looks a bit too bright to be blood ... could be a photo quality issue too .... all things considered it is actually a pretty good quality picture seeing as it was taken with a cellphone.

Mostly I wanted to point out the "red on the chains" are actually "load binders" used to clamp down items .... they attach to the chain and then "pull it tight" with a lever action .... see picture below ..

AM

Ah, I was wondering. It was such an extreme contrast and/or random thing for someone to spray paint.

 

[swanna]

Yes , I would think so too .... it will be interesting when all the info comes out during trial .... we will all get to see how correct we were (or not)

As far as other arrests ... no third suspect picked up yet ... there was one LE officer who said there may not be a third (possibly one of the two was dropped off to follow with the Blue SUV) .... However in the first test drive both went along , DM drove, owner as front passenger , other person (MS ??) in rear seat .

I feel it is highly unlikely a lone test-driver could "subdue" JB en-route to Brampton ... and if 2nd person followed and met at Brampton it would probably require an outdoor scuffle to subdue the victim ... hard to say . If there is a third ... it could change everything ... one of the three would try to claim bystander status and spill their guts on the other two .... that is about the only way the whole story will come out ... unless full confessions are forthcoming ... which I doubt (good lawyers)

Good Post but just wanted to clarify was it meant to read "TB en-route to Brantford".

 

[Arnie M]

Good Post but just wanted to clarify was it meant to read "TB en-route to Brantford".

Thanks for pointing that out ... I cannot claim it was a typo when I wrote JB ... the error comes from deep in the recesses of my memory where thoughts of JonBenet linger

Some days my brain acts kinda' fried ... and no incinerators were involved in the commission of the crime .... !!!!!!!!!!

best wishes
AM

 

[Arnie M]

Excellent analysis. I think it's very clear what model it is now (I've tended not to get involved in the 'which model is it' debates, but I think this pretty much sums it up). .

AE .... I started out the same .... either size unit could do the job so it really should not matter ......

However , there is another aspect that could be important .... if the Incinerator was intended for wonderful purposes like pet cremation or services to pet shelters .... then the smaller SN250 would absolutely be the model to buy.

To me , the larger SN500 model indicates less wonderful purposes

AM

 

[swedie]

There was never an article that stated remains had been found in it, of any sort

SD, other then this article suggesting there was a volume of charred material found, may I add, more than what would be expected from a man TB's size. Kav is stating no other bodies found which could suggest whatever/whoever was burnt in the incinerator was reduced to nothing but ashes, his response of "no evidence of additional victims; no body as was with Tim's just ashes. Ashes from other sources: farm animals?! We know there were no farm animals so it does not seem plausible in MHO. Kav was making this statement based on what was found at that time, before forensic testing had been done.

If we are to derive anything from the numerous reports and our own logical thinking/common sense, it appears the purpose of the incinerator was purchased for nefarious reasons, to dispose of the remnants of criminal activity carried out by DM and whoever else he was doing crimes with. It seems logical the incinerator was used that night for the reason being; they would not have an open fire to draw any attention to the crime scene from say some passerby or neighbour, which very likely would have happened and the murderers knew it.

I believe they either ran out of propane, or got spooked and left the scene before making sure their evil deed was complete, or the incinerator malfunctioned. Personally I don't think they stayed on the property long enough to see their intended results were accomplished. They figured TB was hidden within the incinerator which satisfied them for the time being and until the heat was off, they would avoid returning to the farmland. We know the following day LE had put out a missing persons report for TB, therefore DM and MS were laying low and did not want to chance going back to the scene of the crime too soon. Dropping the trailer off at MB's house was the only place they believe wouldn't raise any questions. As opposed to leaving it in the hangar where DM knew it was only a matter of time before the hangar was searched. To leave it on some random property would only bring attention to property owners leading them to call LE. Leaving it at MS's mother's house would definitely tie him into the crime. Once LE had it in their possession, testing would be done and his DNA would be found within TB's truck but they were trying to avoid obvious detection from the get go. Could it be DM on occasion had left the trailer at his mother's house prior to this therefore he felt it would not seem out of place or raise suspicion from her neighbours? Maybe he had stopped by on occasion with trailer in tow? What seemed to arouse their suspicion was the fact DM was arrested and also the way the trailer was parked right against the garage door. ALL JMHO.

Despite suggestions the volume of charred material recovered exceeded what would be expected from a man of Mr. Bosma’s size, there is no evidence of additional victims, police said.

“The report of further bodies is totally untrue at this time,” Staff-Sgt. Kavanagh told the National Post.

It is not known if the remains might be from farm animals from the large rural property in Ayr, west of Hamilton.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...rom-property-of-suspect-in-tim-bosmas-murder/

 

[cansleuther]

... farm animals?! We know there were no farm animals so it does not seem plausible in MHO.

It was a hog farm before DM purchased it, so it is certainly possible there were animal remains buried on the property that were unearthed during the searches.

The Sniders raised hogs on the hilly farm that has a swampy section and a forested area.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/28/fearing-possible-second-case-toronto-police-homicide-unit-searches-tim-bosma-suspects-farm/

 

[Juballee]

SD, other then this article suggesting there was a volume of charred material found, may I add, more than what would be expected from a man TB's size. Kav is stating no other bodies found which could suggest whatever/whoever was burnt in the incinerator was reduced to nothing but ashes, his response of "no evidence of additional victims; no body as was with Tim's just ashes. Ashes from other sources: farm animals?! We know there were no farm animals so it does not seem plausible in MHO. Kav was making this statement based on what was found at that time, before forensic testing had been done.

It was suggested there might be more charred material, and the lead detective denied that there was evidence of that. To me that is the end of that story.

If we are to derive anything from the numerous reports and our own logical thinking/common sense, it appears the purpose of the incinerator was purchased for nefarious reasons, to dispose of the remnants of criminal activity carried out by DM and whoever else he was doing crimes with. It seems logical the incinerator was used that night for the reason being; they would not have an open fire to draw any attention to the crime scene from say some passerby or neighbour, which very likely would have happened and the murderers knew it.

If they knew that they could be seen by passerbys, why not do it somewhere more hidden, like the hanger or the barn, it was portable after all. Did the killers think that they had more privacy than they really did perhaps? Would it be because they weren't as familiar with the property as the owner would be, or perhaps didn't have keys to get into the barn?

I believe they either ran out of propane, or got spooked and left the scene before making sure their evil deed was complete, or the incinerator malfunctioned. Personally I don't think they stayed on the property long enough to see their intended results were accomplished. They figured TB was hidden within the incinerator which satisfied them for the time being and until the heat was off, they would avoid returning to the farmland. We know the following day LE had put out a missing persons report for TB, therefore DM and MS were laying low and did not want to chance going back to the scene of the crime too soon.

If they had actually used it previously for nefarious reasons or even for large animals, they would have known that even used properly it would still leave teeth and bone fragments. So how hard would it have been when they were picking up the truck and trailer to grab the evidence and bring it along with them to MB's house? I still think that it is suspicious that evidence was found in 2 locations relating to DM, none relating to MS.

Dropping the trailer off at MB's house was the only place they believe wouldn't raise any questions. As opposed to leaving it in the hangar where DM knew it was only a matter of time before the hangar was searched. To leave it on some random property would only bring attention to property owners leading them to call LE. Leaving it at MS's mother's house would definitely tie him into the crime.

If DM thought the hanger was going to be searched, why would he leave it full of stolen vehicles? He had 4 days of not being a suspect to empty out anything incriminating in his life. That seems suspicious to me. If leaving it at MS's mothers house would have made him look guilty, wouldn't they think the same thing about leaving it at DM's mother's house? Unless DM wasn't there to get a say in where things were being left.

Once LE had it in their possession, testing would be done and his DNA would be found within TB's truck but they were trying to avoid obvious detection from the get go. Could it be DM on occasion had left the trailer at his mother's house prior to this therefore he felt it would not seem out of place or raise suspicion from her neighbours? Maybe he had stopped by on occasion with trailer in tow? What seemed to arouse their suspicion was the fact DM was arrested and also the way the trailer was parked right against the garage door. ALL JMHO.

I believe one of the neighbours said that they had never seen the trailer before, and that they hadn't seen him there in 10 years, if I recall correctly.

 

[Sillybilly]

Hey Jub ... can you fix your ^^ quotes please. All quotes start with the word "quote" in square brackets, but end with "/quote" in square brackets ... note the backslash in the last bracketed word.

Thanks !!

 

[Juballee]

Hey Jub ... can you fix your ^^ quotes please. All quotes start with the word "quote" in square brackets, but end with "/quote" in square brackets ... note the backslash in the last bracketed word.

Thanks !!

That worked, thank you!

 

[SnooperDuper]

If they knew that they could be seen by passerbys, why not do it somewhere more hidden, like the hanger or the barn, it was portable after all. Did the killers think that they had more privacy than they really did perhaps? Would it be because they weren't as familiar with the property as the owner would be, or perhaps didn't have keys to get into the barn?



If they had actually used it previously for nefarious reasons or even for large animals, they would have known that even used properly it would still leave teeth and bone fragments. So how hard would it have been when they were picking up the truck and trailer to grab the evidence and bring it along with them to MB's house? I still think that it is suspicious that evidence was found in 2 locations relating to DM, none relating to MS.



If DM thought the hanger was going to be searched, why would he leave it full of stolen vehicles? He had 4 days of not being a suspect to empty out anything incriminating in his life. That seems suspicious to me. If leaving it at MS's mothers house would have made him look guilty, wouldn't they think the same thing about leaving it at DM's mother's house? Unless DM wasn't there to get a say in where things were being left.

<rsbm>

Keep in mind that it was dark, anyplace would be more hidden. I actually think the fact that the incinerator was out by the picnic area in the trees implies that whoever put it there was familiar with that place and familiar enough with the terrain to operate in the dark. I doubt an old worn down barn like that was even locked. From one angle at least you can see old straw spilling out of it and if that incinerator normally scorched the ground, well it would light up that barn full of straw like Burning Man. Inside the barn is not an option.

I don't think the perps would bundle together all the evidence - a man's stolen truck and his ashes - and hide them together. You would want to hide them separately so if one were found it would not be immediately linked to the other. As it is, there are so many crime scenes it will be a pain for LE to explain how they are all linked in court, but necessary. The incinerator may have never had a test run.

Where would he put all this stuff, his garage in Mississauga? Rent a storage locker? He would have to find yet another location to hide from LE.

 

[Juballee]

<rsbm>

Keep in mind that it was dark, anyplace would be more hidden. I actually think the fact that the incinerator was out by the picnic area in the trees implies that whoever put it there was familiar with that place and familiar enough with the terrain to operate in the dark. I doubt an old worn down barn like that was even locked. From one angle at least you can see old straw spilling out of it and if that incinerator normally scorched the ground, well it would light up that barn full of straw like Burning Man. Inside the barn is not an option.

I don't think the perps would bundle together all the evidence - a man's stolen truck and his ashes - and hide them together. You would want to hide them separately so if one were found it would not be immediately linked to the other. As it is, there are so many crime scenes it will be a pain for LE to explain how they are all linked in court, but necessary. The incinerator may have never had a test run.

Where would he put all this stuff, his garage in Mississauga? Rent a storage locker? He would have to find yet another location to hide from LE.

What the picnic area actually says to me, seeing from the photos how close it was to the neighbours, is the opposite. I would think that whoever put the incinerator there obviously didn't know how close it was to the neighbours, and perhaps because they only saw it at night or had perhaps only ever picnicked there, they assumed it was the most isolated country spot that they knew of and must therefore be safe. I think someone more familiar with the area may have ventured a little deeper into the cover of the woods or acreage.

Someone familiar with the incinerator would have known how to use it, probably even watched the video on it, that shows that the ground outside is cool enough to touch, not that I advocate firing one up in a barn, but they could have hidden the truck there in a trailer full of hay easier than transporting it, in my opinion.

And I still think that separating the evidence does not make sense, it just increases the chances of getting caught. And I think putting any hot vehicles from the hanger into a storage locker sounds like a fantastic idea; simple, cheap and effective. Or they could have put the stuff at MS's house. Or at suspect #3's house, that, apparently is a great hiding place, as it still hasn't even been found yet, in my opinion. But then, as you say, that is just another place he has to worry about LE looking...So why separate the truck from the farm? That still does not make sense to me, unless someone wanted to make sure DM looked as guilty as possible.

 

[robynhood]

wow I cannot understand ...the statement :" the end of story".......IMO the story has ONLY JUST BEGUN.....!

I think we shall see this story unfold...IMO...CRYSTAL CLEAR...court pre TRIAL marked on MY CALENDER>>>>Sept.12. 2013!

....Interesting how ONLY DM Defense is here...very interesting...MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!...robynhood....

 

[SnooperDuper]

What the picnic area actually says to me, seeing from the photos how close it was to the neighbours, is the opposite. I would think that whoever put the incinerator there obviously didn't know how close it was to the neighbours, and perhaps because they only saw it at night or had perhaps only ever picnicked there, they assumed it was the most isolated country spot that they knew of and must therefore be safe. I think someone more familiar with the area may have ventured a little deeper into the cover of the woods or acreage.

I think the picnic area is where the neighbours took a photo of the incinerator and the ground was scorched, and it was later moved (because there were references to where it was originally, etc.) LE set up two tents at the farm: one by the picnic area and one further back that seems to have been set up smack dab in the center of the lot vs. the property line. So somebody was doing something pretty deep into the lot...the center, innermost part of it.

Someone familiar with the incinerator would have known how to use it, probably even watched the video on it, that shows that the ground outside is cool enough to touch, not that I advocate firing one up in a barn, but they could have hidden the truck there in a trailer full of hay easier than transporting it, in my opinion.

Neighbours reported the barn falling apart since DM bought the property, so perhaps there were enough missing planks to give a casual observer the chance to see something in there. Perhaps DM would not be assured that someone at the hanger would not go in the trailer. I really doubt he told his buddies that he had this extremely hot truck on his hands. This is just not the sort of news you share. DM had to put the truck and the trailer somewhere, the barn was out, the hangar was out, and MB's driveway was the least out of place place to park that trailer...???

And I still think that separating the evidence does not make sense, it just increases the chances of getting caught.

How about, if you dispose of evidence in multiple places there is a higher chance of one piece being found. However if you dispose of evidence together, you're more likely to have a case/charges against you if that one pile is found. One piece of evidence does not make a case, and if you make it as hard as possible to find all the pieces and put them together...

And I think putting any hot vehicles from the hanger into a storage locker sounds like a fantastic idea; simple, cheap and effective. Or they could have put the stuff at MS's house. Or at suspect #3's house, that, apparently is a great hiding place, as it still hasn't even been found yet, in my opinion. But then, as you say, that is just another place he has to worry about LE looking...So why separate the truck from the farm? That still does not make sense to me, unless someone wanted to make sure DM looked as guilty as possible.

I think you would have to put the whole truck and trailer in the storage locker because you would want the truck under wraps in public. There definitely are security cameras at public storage. That may not have been cheap or convenient to arrange.

MS (and #3, if applicable) always have a right to say DM, I don't want you or your truck problem at my home. And DM doesn't want it at his home either...or the hangar where there are too many people...or any place with cameras...I guess he came up with mom's?

 

[Arnie M]

I think all they do Sept 12th is set a date for a judicial pretrial.

We will probably have to wait a long time before any evidence is made public

Oh the agony !!!!!!!

 

[Snoofo]

wow I cannot understand ...the statement :" the end of story".......IMO the story has ONLY JUST BEGUN.....!

I think we shall see this story unfold...IMO...CRYSTAL CLEAR...court pre TRIAL marked on MY CALENDER>>>>Sept.12. 2013!

....Interesting how ONLY DM Defense is here...very interesting...MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!...robynhood....

Hi RH :seeya:
Excuse me but, I'm confused by your post. What "end of story" don't you understand? Did you see this phrase somewhere? Can you share?

Also, don't get too excited about September 12 as it is not the pre-trial, from what I have learned here on WS, Sept 12 they will set a date for pre-trial. I know, another delay. Boo.

And lastly, your third paragraph. "Very interesting how ONLY DM defence is here...very interesting". What are you talking about? Where is "here"? Here in Court? On WS? In Hamilton? Please clarify, if you will.

Your post is mysterious, like there is a message to be understood by some but not all. Is that intended?

 

[swedie]

SD, other then this article suggesting there was a volume of charred material found, may I add, more than what would be expected from a man TB's size. Kav is stating no other bodies found which could suggest whatever/whoever was burnt in the incinerator was reduced to nothing but ashes, his response of "no evidence of additional victims; no body as was with Tim's just ashes. Ashes from other sources: farm animals?! We know there were no farm animals so it does not seem plausible in MHO. Kav was making this statement based on what was found at that time, before forensic testing had been done.

It was suggested there might be more charred material, and the lead detective denied that there was evidence of that. To me that is the end of that story.



If they knew that they could be seen by passerbys, why not do it somewhere more hidden, like the hanger or the barn, it was portable after all. Did the killers think that they had more privacy than they really did perhaps? Would it be because they weren't as familiar with the property as the owner would be, or perhaps didn't have keys to get into the barn?



If they had actually used it previously for nefarious reasons or even for large animals, they would have known that even used properly it would still leave teeth and bone fragments. So how hard would it have been when they were picking up the truck and trailer to grab the evidence and bring it along with them to MB's house? I still think that it is suspicious that evidence was found in 2 locations relating to DM, none relating to MS.



If DM thought the hanger was going to be searched, why would he leave it full of stolen vehicles? He had 4 days of not being a suspect to empty out anything incriminating in his life. That seems suspicious to me. If leaving it at MS's mothers house would have made him look guilty, wouldn't they think the same thing about leaving it at DM's mother's house? Unless DM wasn't there to get a say in where things were being left.



I believe one of the neighbours said that they had never seen the trailer before, and that they hadn't seen him there in 10 years, if I recall correctly.

Your quoting function is a mess but will try and sort through it to answer.

I don't agree that's the end of the story. Forensic testing will tell what the other charred material was. Kav is only stating at that particular time no body; the most obvious.

They didn't do it in the barn because I think DM was intelligent enough to realize an old barn like that could be a potentially huge fire hazard and mighty quick like if there was straw or wood on the ground. One spark could ruin all their plans of hiding evidence and they could have been caught red handed. I doubt the barn was locked. Look at the pictures where there is access to gain entry if someone really wanted to. Note the large sliding doors. Seems they were not locked as LE were able to open them probably for light and easy access. Maybe they were already open. Many windows also, which appear to be open.

Why risk moving the incinerator when they believed they had privacy right there where the incinerator had probably sat all along. Say they had carried out other nefarious crimes out their on other occasions and no one seemed to be the wiser. Or maybe they had visited the property many times having wiener roasts and a few beers at all hours of the night and no one bothered them. No one may have bothered them then, so they felt they were safe May 6th.

When I mentioned passerbys, I spoke of an open fire as opposed to using the incinerator. Passerbys would take notice and may be more concerned. Especially if they were regular travelers of that road and had never seen activity or fires there before. It could have enticed them to call LE, HTH.

The perps were probably not concerned with teeth or bone; as long as no body remained. Maybe it had been used often for anything and everything they could get their hands on. Again, why take the risk of transporting anything if not necessary. Evidence tied to DM because DM was involved and was the one with the private farmland, hangar and a mother who had a different last name, in a different town and they never thought anyone would make the connection while they figured out what to do next with TB's truck. I have a sense MB was away during that delivery and was suppose to be away for some days if not weeks.

THE HEAT WAS ON! Both perps may have been scoped out by LE a day or so after the fact, but LE did not want to rush in and arrest without some sort of solid evidence. DM and MS could have sensed they were being followed/watched. Even if LE were not onto them early on, I bet DM and MS had heightened anxiety and were avoiding returning anywhere near where they had dumped evidence.

No evidence relating to MD YET, is what you should suggest IMHO. LE may have a mountain of evidence related to MS now.

Clear out the hangar of stole vehicles, parts and the like?! How may I ask? Where would they put it all? The trailer which could have helped them now contained TB's truck. So they leave the truck in the hangar while using the trailer to dispose of stole property, LE shows up and there's TB's truck sitting in plan view?! Don't forget, there were many other people on the airport property who would witness vehicles being hauled away. MHO there was too much to deal with and DM took his chances of leaving them put. If anything, haul away the HB parts and trailer and dispose of them. They are the only factual evidence of stolen vehicles we are certain of at this time.

They didn't have four days. TB left late on May 6th, so that gave them 7th, 8th and 9th and DM was arrested early on the 10th IIRC. I would imagine the perps had other things in those few days to take care of, such as DM seeing his lawyer to close the deal, signing papers for his new condo, . And seeing as it's been said MS tended to his sick mother, maybe she was in need of some TLC during those days. Not everyone has everyday free to do as they please or get rid of evidence.

Bottom line about this whole case is, which I feel gives people the doubt about DM's involvement is, his assumed/speculated wealth; if we remove the speculation and assumption, what is left? DM is just a guy capable of committing murder like others have. For whatever reason they did decide to murder TB remains to be told. We may never find out the true answer:seeya: from the horses' mouths, but I believe the evidence will point directly the two suspects. ALL my answers and opinions to your assumptions. :moo: