The Pontiac - "Revisted" #1

[cecybeans]

Well, I guess if we want to be truly accurate we can say that CA and GA had access to the car from the time they picked it up until both left for work, then when CA got back until she was able to locate KC and return home - if that's from about 2:30 until 6 or 7, then that is at least an hour between them, given the other things happening during that time.

While KC was away until 2 am touring the neighborhood, I imagine LE was with the Anthonys part of the time, but I don't know how long they stayed at the house after the original responding officers took their statements. At any rate, even if they were there the entire time until KC got back, that is from 2 am until 8 am, or six hours, in which the entire family could have had access to the car.

While KC was at Universal the next day (when CA was frantically calling YM), I imagine the family would have had access as well, unless LE stayed with them while KC was being interviewed.

Since the GA picked up the car and drove it without reporting it to LE, and CA admitted to already removing items from the car before calling 911 and before LE arrived, LE could assume it had already been compromised, there really no point to impound it immediately unless they felt it would be further compromised. I guess that could be a regret at this point, but also the fact that KC had not driven the car in two weeks and the fact that both her parents had fiddled with the interior already, LE knew they weren't getting a piece of evidence in pristine condition. Since they did not initially think the crime happened anywhere near the car, that also makes me think they may have believed the "it's just garbage" explanation that the Anthonys most certainly gave when asked. I know that best-case scenario would have been to impound the car immediately - it still was a piece of evidence that had been tampered with already, imo.

 

[notthatsmart]

Does anyone really believe that SA will introduce this car as evidence in light of the fact that all their test came up inconclusive.

Evidence garage: inconclusive
Body farm: inconclusive
Enthomology: inconclusive
FBI hair in the trunk: inconclusive
YM: inconclusive (considering he got on the stand and said decomposition instead of human decomposition)
Cadaver dogs: I'm not sure. Is there a report out there on their false positives?
Have I missed anything? I mean why would SA set themselves up for all this cross examination on the Pontiac if all the test came back inconclusive?
All in my opinion only. thanks

 

[Tulessa]

Does anyone really believe that SA will introduce this car as evidence in light of the fact that all their test came up inconclusive.

Evidence garage: inconclusive
Body farm: inconclusive
Enthomology: inconclusive
FBI hair in the trunk: inconclusive
YM: inconclusive (considering he got on the stand and said decomposition instead of human decomposition)
Cadaver dogs: I'm not sure. Is there a report out there on their false positives?
Have I missed anything? I mean why would SA set themselves up for all this cross examination on the Pontiac if all the test came back inconclusive?

Have you seriously read all of the released documents?:waitasec:

Oh and I like your siggy.


But the whole truth is sitting in jail and will not talk.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Have you seriously read all of the released documents?:waitasec:

Oh and I like your siggy.


But the whole truth is sitting in jail and will not talk.

I have read all the docs, and I understand how it could be interpreted that everything listed was inconclusive. I think it can also be interpreted that these things listed could be valuable evidence. As for the prosecution using it, they will have to decide if they think their experts can convince a jury that it is indeed evidence, and that the defense’s experts can not cast reasonable doubt on this evidence. If the prosecution feels the defense experts can cast too much reasonable doubt on this evidence, they will most likely choose not to pursue it. The white trash bag being in or near a dumpster contaminates that piece of evidence and any evidence found within it, imo. The fact that the Pontiac itself was compromised either by innocence or by design by GA and CA also poses a problem for the prosecution. If you add these two problems to the fact that KC herself had from the time she removed Caylee from the trunk (if Caylee was ever in the trunk), to do any cleaning or removing decomp that she desired, well, quite frankly, the trunk of the Pontiac may not be the strong evidence that the media would have us all believe. JMO as always.

 

[Harmony 2]

Does anyone really believe that SA will introduce this car as evidence in light of the fact that all their test came up inconclusive.

Evidence garage: inconclusive
Body farm: inconclusive
Enthomology: inconclusive
FBI hair in the trunk: inconclusive
YM: inconclusive (considering he got on the stand and said decomposition instead of human decomposition)
Cadaver dogs: I'm not sure. Is there a report out there on their false positives?
Have I missed anything? I mean why would SA set themselves up for all this cross examination on the Pontiac if all the test came back inconclusive?
All in my opinion only. thanks

I am not sure what evidence garage you are referring to. You also need to be more specific about which evidence from the Body Farm, entomology results and death band on hair you think are inconclusive. How are they inconclusive? :waitasec:

 

[JBean]

Well, I guess if we want to be truly accurate we can say that CA and GA had access to the car from the time they picked it up until both left for work, then when CA got back until she was able to locate KC and return home - if that's from about 2:30 until 6 or 7, then that is at least an hour between them, given the other things happening during that time.

While KC was away until 2 am touring the neighborhood, I imagine LE was with the Anthonys part of the time, but I don't know how long they stayed at the house after the original responding officers took their statements. At any rate, even if they were there the entire time until KC got back, that is from 2 am until 8 am, or six hours, in which the entire family could have had access to the car.

While KC was at Universal the next day (when CA was frantically calling YM), I imagine the family would have had access as well, unless LE stayed with them while KC was being interviewed.

Since the GA picked up the car and drove it without reporting it to LE, and CA admitted to already removing items from the car before calling 911 and before LE arrived, LE could assume it had already been compromised, there really no point to impound it immediately unless they felt it would be further compromised. I guess that could be a regret at this point, but also the fact that KC had not driven the car in two weeks and the fact that both her parents had fiddled with the interior already, LE knew they weren't getting a piece of evidence in pristine condition. Since they did not initially think the crime happened anywhere near the car, that also makes me think they may have believed the "it's just garbage" explanation that the Anthonys most certainly gave when asked. I know that best-case scenario would have been to impound the car immediately - it still was a piece of evidence that had been tampered with already, imo.

I was thinking today that it is interesting that even the tow yard did not call the police . Didn't GA tell them about Caylee missing and didn't they discuss the decomp odor when GA and CA picked up the car?
Surprising Birch didn't react.
The most important thing to me is that both GA and CA told LE immediately about the odor and both compared it to that of a dead body. Further, responding investigators also confirmed they smelled it and that would be enough for me regardless of what anyone's story was.

Dead body smell usually mean dead body. No reason to wait for anything,imo. To me, letting that car go unattended for any length of time at all is the same as not taping off a murder scene. Maybe the evidence is compromised but ya still gotta preserve what is left.

 

[LambChop]

I think Mr. Birch had seconds thoughts and that is why he made a beeline down to retrieve the trash bag from the dumpster in his PJ's. Want to think after going to bed he went over what happened that day and felt he did smell decomp in the car and maybe he better go get the bag and then call LE. If he had found the bag, he would have called it in. Who races in the middle of the night to retrieve a bag in your PJ's?? JMO

 

[LambChop]

I have read all the docs, and I understand how it could be interpreted that everything listed was inconclusive. I think it can also be interpreted that these things listed could be valuable evidence. As for the prosecution using it, they will have to decide if they think their experts can convince a jury that it is indeed evidence, and that the defense’s experts can not cast reasonable doubt on this evidence. If the prosecution feels the defense experts can cast too much reasonable doubt on this evidence, they will most likely choose not to pursue it. The white trash bag being in or near a dumpster contaminates that piece of evidence and any evidence found within it, imo. The fact that the Pontiac itself was compromised either by innocence or by design by GA and CA also poses a problem for the prosecution. If you add these two problems to the fact that KC herself had from the time she removed Caylee from the trunk (if Caylee was ever in the trunk), to do any cleaning or removing decomp that she desired, well, quite frankly, the trunk of the Pontiac may not be the strong evidence that the media would have us all believe. JMO as always.

It would only take a visit to the car for the jury to decide for themselves what the car smells like. They will NEVER get that smell out of the car, ever!!!! By the date of the trial I bet it will still smell. Wonder how many jurors will be asked if they have ever smelled human decomposition?

 

[RR0004]

Not to add fuel to the fire...and slightly OT...we also wondered why they didn't have the dogs in the house.

 

[LambChop]

Not to add fuel to the fire...and slightly OT...we also wondered why they didn't have the dogs in the house.

Just a guess but maybe because GA said the last time he saw Caylee was when she left with KC. KC never returned home with Caylee. LE probably took GA's word as the truth since he was ex-LE he would probably remember when he last saw her. JMO

 

[RR0004]

Just a guess but maybe because GA said the last time he saw Caylee was when she left with KC. KC never returned home with Caylee. LE probably took GA's word as the truth since he was ex-LE he would probably remember when he last saw her. JMO

...but he also knew Casey had been back to the house. They knew stuff was missing. Cindy knew that Casey had been there...it's even in the State's depo. Would bringing them back to the house post discovery have been too late?

(Ok...no more OT...promise)

 

[cecybeans]

Even if the Pontiac doesn't produce pristine inculpatory evidence that proves a crime was committed beyond a shadow of a doubt, it still has value as a piece of circumstantial evidence. If it is highly likely according to scientific results (which are often termed "inconclusive" even if the odds are overwhelming) that there was decomp in the car and that is supported by both human perception and cadaver dogs, I'd say the chance of a jury thinking there was a human body in the trunk, even though it's not a CSI's fantasy - which would include the presence of the actual body itself as well as other evidence, - it will still hold. The term beyond a reasonable doubt is the operative term, and I'd think that given the fact three independent types of sources corroborate and identify the odor as human decomp would satisfy a jury.

Nothing recovered in the trash bag was so compromised that it would be unusable (it's not like fingerprints were necessary or that something that could have been inculpatory is degraded), in fact what is not present in the trash bag would tend to support the supposition as well.

 

[JBean]

I think Mr. Birch had seconds thoughts and that is why he made a beeline down to retrieve the trash bag from the dumpster in his PJ's. Want to think after going to bed he went over what happened that day and felt he did smell decomp in the car and maybe he better go get the bag and then call LE. If he had found the bag, he would have called it in. Who races in the middle of the night to retrieve a bag in your PJ's?? JMO

But that wasn''t until after he watched the news IIRC.

What I mean is, if we are finding fault with GA and CA not calling the authorities when they smelled the decomp, then we have to recall that Birch didn't call the cops when he smelled decomp either.To take it a step further, he recognized exactly what it was and said so.

In reality I wouldn't expect any of them to actually call until they perhaps got more information which is precisiely what happened. They both found out more and they both called. CA and GA both reported on the 15th what they had uncovered and Birch contacted authorities also.

I don't think most people would jump to the conclusion that someone actually was dead in the car and call LE .We have hindsight, none of them did. So it is easy to say we would have called based on the smell. But Mr. Birch is a perfect example of a regular joe with nothing to hide and no stake in the whole thing and he did not call LE and report a car with the smell of a human decomposing.

 

[LambChop]

But that wasn''t until after he watched the news IIRC.

What I mean is, if we are finding fault with GA and CA not calling the authorities when they smelled the decomp, then we have to recall that Birch didn't call the cops when he smelled decomp either.To take it a step further, he recognized exactly what it was and said so.

In reality I wouldn't expect any of them to actually call until they perhaps got more information which is precisiely what happened. They both found out more and they both called. CA and GA both reported on the 15th what they had uncovered and Birch contacted authorities also.

I don't think most people would jump to the conclusion that someone actually was dead in the car and call LE .We have hindsight, none of them did. So it is easy to say we would have called based on the smell. But Mr. Birch is a perfect example of a regular joe with nothing to hide and no stake in the whole thing and he did not call LE and report a car with the smell of a human decomposing.

Maybe Mr. Birch just did not want to get involved. Look at the person who called DCF asking if CA had to have a daycare license to babysit after the 48 Hours program. BC claims the A's may sue for harassment. This is why people just do not want to get involved today.

 

[notthatsmart]

I am not sure what evidence garage you are referring to. You also need to be more specific about which evidence from the Body Farm, entomology results and death band on hair you think are inconclusive. How are they inconclusive? :waitasec:

Way back body farm dump. The evidence garages findings were right before the body farm findings.
The death band: Fbi email says I can not confirm this hair is from a human decomposing body.
Entomology: Can not confirm is from human decomposition.

 

[notthatsmart]

It would only take a visit to the car for the jury to decide for themselves what the car smells like. They will NEVER get that smell out of the car, ever!!!! By the date of the trial I bet it will still smell. Wonder how many jurors will be asked if they have ever smelled human decomposition?

Of only it were that simple. We would not need a trial. Fact is that it is not that simple. The smell is up for interpretation.

 

[notthatsmart]

Mr Birch says he did not lose any sleep over it. He didn't even think about it until he saw it on the news. When he did call. He was calling to report the trash bag. So even at that point, he thought it was trash.

 

[Just Jayla]

Mr Birch says he did not lose any sleep over it. He didn't even think about it until he saw it on the news. When he did call. He was calling to report the trash bag. So even at that point, he thought it was trash.

Do you mean he thought the smell was trash, or the bag itself was just trash, not a body? Both, I guess...

He was not very firm one way or the other-At one point, as you stated above, he says he was over it. On the other hand, he compared it directly to the suicide car, and he went into length about that car and how they had to air it out. He says KC's was not as bad, but still pretty bad (in direct comparison to the suicide smell). The state will have to grill him on this, get him to articulate the difference between the suicide car and the trash that he must frequently smell in people's 100+ degree cars/the dumpster.
SB also tells a lot about GA's comments-That George was giving him a complete background on the KC saga, though SB was a complete stranger-And that GA seemed to be worried about what could be in the trunk.

Simon's story won't differ much from GA's original story, it never was that different-If they still match at trial is the mystery!

 

[LambChop]

Of only it were that simple. We would not need a trial. Fact is that it is not that simple. The smell is up for interpretation.

Only someone who has never smelled decomp would make that statement. It is the MOST unforgetable smell you could ever smell in your life. GA said it, CA said it, LE said it. There are just some things that you cannot mistake and anyone who has ever smelled it will tell you that.

One other note: There's a body of a 3 year old child who did not walk to the dump site, climb into two bags and a laundry bag, put tape over a good portion of her face and then lay there until she expired. That is a fact. She had to get there somehow. Three very important witnesses who first opened the trunk all described the smell of human decomposition. Important because they all have smelled it before and they knew the minute they smelled it as per their utterances. Does not matter what they want to say now when they were initially exposed to the smell they told the truth. To my knowledge I have yet to hear of any of KC's friend, family, Mr. Kronk, etc. who have decomp in their cars. Something you could not hide for sure.

What I do not understand is there is a dead child here and there seems to be more concern over KC and the fact that everything is up for interpretation. If they all said they smelled decomposition in the truck of KC's car I would consider that very damning evidence because each and every one of those witnesses would know.

 

[whiteangora]

Way back body farm dump. The evidence garages findings were right before the body farm findings.
The death band: Fbi email says I can not confirm this hair is from a human decomposing body.
Entomology: Can not confirm is from human decomposition.

If Caylee was still missing this would be something to chew on, but Caylee is dead and she died at the hand of her mother and was stored in her mother's car.