The Rest of the Story...

[Glow]

Originally Posted by Glow

Should breastfeeding babies be physically torn out of their mothers arms with no proof that they have ever been harmed and without any charges OR legal representation?

What proof is there of that???

Well you can start here - there's plenty more.

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2008/05/30/texas-supreme-court-return-the-children/

“Try to imagine all these children from age 1 to 12 years, left in that coliseum [separated from their mothers] with only CPS and [police officers] to care for them. The only others were mothers whom CPS decided were under 18 and kept in their custody along with their children. The floor was literally slick with tears in places. A baby was left in a stroller without food and water for 24 hours and ended up in the hospital. A 4 year old boy was so terrified that he snuck away and hid and was only found after the coliseum had been emptied the next day.”
“I witnessed a young mother named Rosinith be required by CPS to board the bus back to the ranch, though her young child was in the hospital with 104 degree fever and even though the child’s physician had personally requested the mother’s presence at the hospital. This event haunts me still, and I cannot imagine such a heartless act.”
“By the second day, I was ready to run in front of the CNN cameras to shout that there was a travesty happening inside those walls….

 

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

I don't have a problem with CPS investigating cases or removing children that may be in danger. A lot more children would be alive if CPS were even more aggressive in their tactics. I applaud them for having the guts to take this bold approach. I also applaud our court system for taking the time to sort out this mess and see where the real issues are. I am glad that I live in America where everything can be looked at fairly.

I have no problem paying tax dollars to support this system. I am grateful there is a system to pull children from potential harm. I am glad there are groups that are willing to step in and take care of the children or to arrange busses or to do whatever they do. I am glad we have businesses that are able to get contracts to do this work and that who does what isn't dictated by the government. We live in a free country. Yes, I will pay my tax dollars for that.

By the way, even at $500k, digging to see if their are problems with the FLDS group is still cheaper than frivilous cases we see everyday. Today on websleuths there is the case of the teens that climbed 2 6ft fences in an amusement park, went into a danger zone and got decapitated. That is sad, but shouldn't have happened. I'm sure that incidence is going to cost consumers millions - because some kids were acting stupid. I'm sure there are lawyers, corporate meetings, travel, inspections, changes in policy, new signage, insurance premiums, etc. that 6 flags now has to pay for. The parents of that teen isn't paying for that. All of us consumers end up paying for that.

I know that my example is a complete change of topic here, but my point is that if my money already goes to cover things that were preventable and shouldn't have happened, I have no problem spending my money on something like making sure girls aren't being raped and forced into marriages.

I laughed when I first saw my wedding vows. They asked if I of my own free will am getting married. I thought that was the stupidist question and was like "duh". Now I understand why that question is asked. These girls deserve the same freedom when it comes to selecting their spouses.

Finally, I am aware that there are two sides to the story. I think both sides are being over dramatic.

 

[LinasK]

Originally Posted by Glow

Should breastfeeding babies be physically torn out of their mothers arms with no proof that they have ever been harmed and without any charges OR legal representation?



Well you can start here - there's plenty more.

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2008/05/30/texas-supreme-court-return-the-children/

“Try to imagine all these children from age 1 to 12 years, left in that coliseum [separated from their mothers] with only CPS and [police officers] to care for them. The only others were mothers whom CPS decided were under 18 and kept in their custody along with their children. The floor was literally slick with tears in places. A baby was left in a stroller without food and water for 24 hours and ended up in the hospital. A 4 year old boy was so terrified that he snuck away and hid and was only found after the coliseum had been emptied the next day.”
“I witnessed a young mother named Rosinith be required by CPS to board the bus back to the ranch, though her young child was in the hospital with 104 degree fever and even though the child’s physician had personally requested the mother’s presence at the hospital. This event haunts me still, and I cannot imagine such a heartless act.”
“By the second day, I was ready to run in front of the CNN cameras to shout that there was a travesty happening inside those walls….

Okay, I took a look at this article. I still see no proof that breast-feeding babies were "physically torn out of their mother's arms". Your statement implies that they ripped the children away while they were breast-feeding. This is simply NOT the case. The mothers were allowed to accompany their children, which is not normally allowed. They went out of their way to accomodate the FLDS mothers. Even if a breast-feeding baby had to get a bottle, I don't see that as the end of the world. In the FLDS, the kids don't even stay with their natural mothers, they have several women care for them, so why is this any different???

 

[LinasK]

I don't have a problem with CPS investigating cases or removing children that may be in danger. A lot more children would be alive if CPS were even more aggressive in their tactics. I applaud them for having the guts to take this bold approach. I also applaud our court system for taking the time to sort out this mess and see where the real issues are. I am glad that I live in America where everything can be looked at fairly.

I have no problem paying tax dollars to support this system. I am grateful there is a system to pull children from potential harm. I am glad there are groups that are willing to step in and take care of the children or to arrange busses or to do whatever they do. I am glad we have businesses that are able to get contracts to do this work and that who does what isn't dictated by the government. We live in a free country. Yes, I will pay my tax dollars for that.

Well-said!:clap::clap::clap:

 

[Glow]

Your statement implies that they ripped the children away while they were breast-feeding.

What I said was

"Should breastfeeding babies be physically torn out of their mothers arms with no proof that they have ever been harmed and without any charges OR legal representation?"


I never said that anyone took a baby WHILE it was breastfeeding.

This is the kind of exaggeration that continues to make it hard to communicate the actual facts.

The mothers were separated from the children - they werent left together. As a matter of fact that is why the Salvation Army (which is a religion) refused to be a part of it. The way it was done was so heinous that the CASA workers started filing paper work with their superiors to complain. That is whose words you were reading at that website. CASA workers. Who had been invited in to observe by CPS.

As far as a breastfeeding infant goes, to separate them from breastfeeding abruptly is highly traumatic and can even make them sick.

There was simply no reason for it.


here is the link where I got the word "peeled" from

Over 1,500 pages of e-mail correspondence between the governor’s office and CPS were recently obtained by the Dallas Morning News under state freedom of information laws. The paper reported its findings June 4, 2008. Over 130 of the e-mails pertained to a secret plan to separate mothers from their children following the raid on the YFZ community in April.
The planned separation would have taken place on April 11 by putting mothers and children aboard busses headed for a Salvation Army facility in Midlothian, not telling them the real purpose of the trip until the buses were underway. Since the Salvation Army would not permit the separation to take place at its facility, the plan was to use a secure location prior to entering the Salvation Army grounds.
the actual separation took place on April 24 at the Coliseum in San Angelo, where CPS workers and state troopers literally peeled screaming children from their grief-stricken mothers.
the actual separation took place on April 24 at the Coliseum in San Angelo, where CPS workers and state troopers literally peeled screaming children from their grief-stricken mothers.

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=48

 

[Glow]

I don't have a problem with CPS investigating cases or removing children that may be in danger.

So you would have no problem with them taking your children or your nieces and nephews even when there was no danger? Just a "maybe" of danger?

I am not at all comfortable with that. This is not kindly old aunt coming to visit. This is a government authorized group of people who work for an overburdened system who have been given and have absorbed the mentality that their powers are virtually limitless.

A lot more children would be alive if CPS were even more aggressive in their tactics.

This is the argument that is frequently stated. But taking a system that has already been found guilty of drugging the children and allowing them to be abused and murdered while "in care" and giving it more power does not seem like the solution.

CPS is PLENTY aggressive. Aggressiveness or lack of isnt their problem. The problem is that it is poorly run. The best thing we can do with a poorly run system is dismantle it and begin again, not give it more power to mishandle.

I applaud them for having the guts to take this bold approach.

Bold? I guess that is one word for it. Cruel might be another. Probably the most accurate words for it would be illegal and unconstitutional as per the Texas Supreme Court. Do you admire illegal and unconstitutional along with bold?

I also applaud our court system for taking the time to sort out this mess and see where the real issues are. I am glad that I live in America where everything can be looked at fairly.

Well I agree with you that it is a "mess" It is a "mess" that is now having to be sorted out because someone jumped the gun. Now that everything got put back to square one it can be sorted out just the same way it could have been in the beginning.

I have no problem paying tax dollars to support this system. I am grateful there is a system to pull children from potential harm. I am glad there are groups that are willing to step in and take care of the children or to arrange busses or to do whatever they do. I am glad we have businesses that are able to get contracts to do this work and that who does what isn't dictated by the government. We live in a free country. Yes, I will pay my tax dollars for that..

I dont think any of us mind tax money going to preserve and protect the welfare of children. For myself, I want the money to do some real good and not just be thrown at a system whos statistics are worse than the group they are taking the children from. As for the buses, that money went to the Baptist Church for their participation in taking children away from their parents with (according to the Supreme Court) no good reason. So that is tantamount to one religion siding with the government against another religion. Since when did religion play a managerial role in government? That is what some people are questioning.

By the way, even at $500k, digging to see if their are problems with the FLDS group is still cheaper than frivilous cases we see everyday. Today on websleuths there is the case of the teens that climbed 2 6ft fences in an amusement park, went into a danger zone and got decapitated. That is sad, but shouldn't have happened. I'm sure that incidence is going to cost consumers millions - because some kids were acting stupid. I'm sure there are lawyers, corporate meetings, travel, inspections, changes in policy, new signage, insurance premiums, etc. that 6 flags now has to pay for. The parents of that teen isn't paying for that. All of us consumers end up paying for that.

I know that my example is a complete change of topic here, but my point is that if my money already goes to cover things that were preventable and shouldn't have happened, I have no problem spending my money on something like making sure girls aren't being raped and forced into marriages..

I am totally with you on the frivolous law suits. It has reached a ridiculous level. The 6 Flags case is a good example.

As for you spending money to make sure a girl isnt raped or forced - you didnt.

The court ruled, the kids went back home, the money was still spent. All that money did was grease the wheels that started grinding back in April and traumatized a lot of innocent children until the courts stepped in and stopped it. That money didnt help even one girl to not get raped. It did probably however, teach a LOT of FLDS girls that the outside world really is the devil and go a long way towards convincing them that all the rhetoric they had been taught about us was in fact true.

Finally, I am aware that there are two sides to the story. I think both sides are being over dramatic.

I agree that both sides are being dramatic. I too have observed that.

Some people do it because they want to rouse emotion and others do it because they dont know how to present their case in in lieu of hard facts.

On the one side people throw around phrases like

"Baby raping pedophiles with their temple beds!"

on the other side there is a lot of comparing the raid to the Nazi camps and Guantanamo.

Somewhere in the middle lies the truth. And the truth is kids were housed in a stable with hay on the floor and had to bathe in a bucket.

There, no dramatic words. Just plain English. Still a dramatic story though, isnt it?

 

[faw720]

I've tried staying quiet but feel compelled to put in my 2cents worth. This comes from a Texan who has previously worked for several agencies that provided contract foster care for the state of Texas. I also have friends & relatives living in the San Angelo area. This case has distressed me greatly from the very beginning. And from the beginning it was a lose/lose situation for the children. My mother had an old saying "between the devil & the deep blue sea" & that's exactly where these poor kids are. I know from experience that foremost Texas CPS is a highly political agency. They blow hot & cold depending on what type political pressure they're getting. I know for a fact that people in the San Angelo & Eldorado area did not/do not want the FLDS in their area. I think especially since the David Koresh debacle in Waco people here are not comfortable with cult like religions. Harvey Hildebrand, state representative, did indeed start all of this & I can guarantee you that he did not have the best interest of the children in mind. CPS jumped in without any forethought or analysis of the situation. They are an agency drunkened by their own power & are accustomed to being above the law. They do employer lawyers & with just a little analysis they would have discovered that the raid they conducted was indeed illegal. After all, it only took the court of appeals & the Texas surpreme court a very short time to make the determination of the illegality of the raid conducted in the manner in which it was. I think the original intent was to chase FLDS out of the state, but now FLDS has been forbidden to leave the state without giving prior notice. So much for thinking ahead..................Knee-jerk reaction rules. Now the head of CPS has resigned effective 8/31/08. Please refer to the "link" section & the link provided by mollymalone. The situation will probably warrant an entire legislative session devoted to this matter. Frankly, I'm hoping for a house cleaning at CPS & a reorganization employing actual child care experts rather than political drones. In the meantime, the FLDS children have suffered & will continue to suffer from the trauma of this raid.

Just for the record, I am not FLDS nor do I support the notion of teens being married off to old perverted men. I do have a problem with any government that infringes on any religious rights & I do have a problem with any government agency that uses kids as political pawns. I already had a lot of respect for the Salvation Army & their programs & have even more respect for them since they refused to let CPS use their facilities for separating children from their mothers.

 

[southcitymom]

I've tried staying quiet but feel compelled to put in my 2cents worth. This comes from a Texan who has previously worked for several agencies that provided contract foster care for the state of Texas. I also have friends & relatives living in the San Angelo area. This case has distressed me greatly from the very beginning. And from the beginning it was a lose/lose situation for the children. My mother had an old saying "between the devil & the deep blue sea" & that's exactly where these poor kids are. I know from experience that foremost Texas CPS is a highly political agency. They blow hot & cold depending on what type political pressure they're getting. I know for a fact that people in the San Angelo & Eldorado area did not/do not want the FLDS in their area. I think especially since the David Koresh debacle in Waco people here are not comfortable with cult like religions. Harvey Hildebrand, state representative, did indeed start all of this & I can guarantee you that he did not have the best interest of the children in mind. CPS jumped in without any forethought or analysis of the situation. They are an agency drunkened by their own power & are accustomed to being above the law. They do employer lawyers & with just a little analysis they would have discovered that the raid they conducted was indeed illegal. After all, it only took the court of appeals & the Texas surpreme court a very short time to make the determination of the illegality of the raid conducted in the manner in which it was. I think the original intent was to chase FLDS out of the state, but now FLDS has been forbidden to leave the state without giving prior notice. So much for thinking ahead..................Knee-jerk reaction rules. Now the head of CPS has resigned effective 8/31/08. Please refer to the "link" section & the link provided by mollymalone. The situation will probably warrant an entire legislative session devoted to this matter. Frankly, I'm hoping for a house cleaning at CPS & a reorganization employing actual child care experts rather than political drones. In the meantime, the FLDS children have suffered & will continue to suffer from the trauma of this raid.

Just for the record, I am not FLDS nor do I support the notion of teens being married off to old perverted men. I do have a problem with any government that infringes on any religious rights & I do have a problem with any government agency that uses kids as political pawns. I already had a lot of respect for the Salvation Army & their programs & have even more respect for them since they refused to let CPS use their facilities for separating children from their mothers.

Thank you for this excellent post, faw. I appreciate some of your personal insight.

If any good can come from this mess, it will be real changes in both organizations (FLDS and CPS). I remain angry that Texas's political witch-hunt was carried out (illegally, no less) on the backs of the very children it is supposed to protect.

This entire story holds a number of examples of absolute power corrupting absolutely. Thank God for our Courts, but even they cannot undo the damage that was done to children and families.

I am grateful to Glow for having the courage to rationally consider the rest of the story. The conversation needs to keep going, and we need to continue to look more closely at what really happened here. Right-minded people should be more than a little concerned about every aspect of this very harmful raid.

 

[Truly]

I've tried staying quiet but feel compelled to put in my 2cents worth. This comes from a Texan who has previously worked for several agencies that provided contract foster care for the state of Texas. I also have friends & relatives living in the San Angelo area. This case has distressed me greatly from the very beginning. And from the beginning it was a lose/lose situation for the children. My mother had an old saying "between the devil & the deep blue sea" & that's exactly where these poor kids are. I know from experience that foremost Texas CPS is a highly political agency. They blow hot & cold depending on what type political pressure they're getting. I know for a fact that people in the San Angelo & Eldorado area did not/do not want the FLDS in their area. I think especially since the David Koresh debacle in Waco people here are not comfortable with cult like religions. Harvey Hildebrand, state representative, did indeed start all of this & I can guarantee you that he did not have the best interest of the children in mind. CPS jumped in without any forethought or analysis of the situation. They are an agency drunkened by their own power & are accustomed to being above the law. They do employer lawyers & with just a little analysis they would have discovered that the raid they conducted was indeed illegal. After all, it only took the court of appeals & the Texas surpreme court a very short time to make the determination of the illegality of the raid conducted in the manner in which it was. I think the original intent was to chase FLDS out of the state, but now FLDS has been forbidden to leave the state without giving prior notice. So much for thinking ahead..................Knee-jerk reaction rules. Now the head of CPS has resigned effective 8/31/08. Please refer to the "link" section & the link provided by mollymalone. The situation will probably warrant an entire legislative session devoted to this matter. Frankly, I'm hoping for a house cleaning at CPS & a reorganization employing actual child care experts rather than political drones. In the meantime, the FLDS children have suffered & will continue to suffer from the trauma of this raid.

Just for the record, I am not FLDS nor do I support the notion of teens being married off to old perverted men. I do have a problem with any government that infringes on any religious rights & I do have a problem with any government agency that uses kids as political pawns. I already had a lot of respect for the Salvation Army & their programs & have even more respect for them since they refused to let CPS use their facilities for separating children from their mothers.

Great post faw. I don't blame Texas for not wanting the mormon mafia to move into their state. They have proven notoriously difficult to corral and prosecute in neighboring states. The men don't stand and defend their 'church'. They ditch the funny-undies and their flock, grab a half-million dollars from the community trust and their father's favorite 'child-bride', hop into a pair of shorts and a red sports car and head to Vegas. Why would Texas tolerate cowardly criminals who sexually assault children?

The FLDS children have sufferred mightily at the hands of their fathers. What about that? Why focus on the short-term emergency response by Texas, CPS, churches who donated busses, people who donated food and blankets...etc? I trust that everybody involved in this high-profile situation took the utmost care to ensure that the children were safe and sound for the brief time they were in their care.

What about the abuse by the FLDS? If Texas is the deep blue sea, then the male leaders of the FLDS are surely the devil. I would love to hear your views on the one aspect of the sexual abuse of children by the FLDS. It is the sole issue which matters in this case. I have noticed that the people who yell to the high heavens about CPS, and hair, and clothes, (and now stables, for pity's sake!) flat out refuse to even so much as cast a sidelong glance at the real issue here. If children are being abused by older male relatives in their own homes, it is not enough to merely say 'tut-tut, that's terrible', and allow the abuse to continue. Someone needs to step in on behalf of the children and put a stop to it. That someone in this case is The State of Texas. And I applaud their efforts.

It is one thing to passively not support the notion, but most of us here actively oppose the practice of forcing young teens to have sex with perverted old men. Just because some old pervert says that God told him it was ok to have sex with a child does not give him the right to rape her and then claim 'freedom of religion'. What about her freedom?

 

[southcitymom]

....It is one thing to passively not support the notion, but most of us here actively oppose the practice of forcing young teens to have sex with perverted old men. Just because some old pervert says that God told him it was ok to have sex with a child does not give him the right to rape her and then claim 'freedom of religion'. What about her freedom?

They may be here, but I have never run across anyone at WS who does not believe it is wrong for adults to have sex with children. Everyone I have met here wants adults who have sex with children to be charged, tried and punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Whether we call that belief "not supporting the notion" or "actively opposing the practice" or however else different people communicate that idea, we are all on the same side of the issue. Posters who take issue with the way Texas and the CPS handled this matter have repeatedly condemned adult-child sex within the FLDS. To intimate otherwise seems disingenuous.

In this situation - even if, for the sake of argument, we are willing to put aside all the other very real issues besides the issue of child molestation and pretend that those issues don't exist or matter, we are still left with the cold hard reality that you cannot properly prosecute a child molester if you run roughshod over the law in your charge towards "justice." Discussing what was wrong and what went wrong allows us to change those things in the future and gives us a better shot at really helping children who are being harmed.

So, like it or not, "our" opposition is indeed active even if it does not look or sound like "yours".

 

[faw720]

I would love to hear your views on the one aspect of the sexual abuse of children by the FLDS. It is the sole issue which matters in this case.

It is one thing to passively not support the notion, but most of us here actively oppose the practice of forcing young teens to have sex with perverted old men. Just because some old pervert says that God told him it was ok to have sex with a child does not give him the right to rape her and then claim 'freedom of religion'. What about her freedom?

I think sexual abuse practiced by FLDS or ANYONE ELSE is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!! What can I do about it?????? I honestly wish I could come up with an answer. Having worked for 16 years for foster care facilities I can tell you with certainty that the FLDS is only the tip of the iceberg. Most of us "normal" people can't even begin the imagine the horrors that perverts commit on children. If anyone is interested in examples I can provide those too. I've often wished that 60 Minutes or some other investigative journalism program would do a series of reports informing the public of the critical problem of not only sexual abuse but physical abuse as well.

In the instance of the FLDS I think that if CPS was actually concerned about sexual abuse they could have removed only the pre-teen & teenage girls & started their investigation from that point. If they had done that many of the children could have been spared the trauma of the raid & subsequent separation from their mothers. Of course, that is just my opinion & that along with 50 cents will buy you a cup of coffee.

Maybe, just maybe, after this situation FLDS will re-think some of their practices??????? I don't know but we can always hope. The intent of my original post was to point out that the children have been victimized by not only the FLDS but the state as well.

If anyone here can tell me how I can more "actively" oppose child abuse I'm open to suggestions.

 

[Glow]

There are two people of interest still circling this story. One is Hilderbran the state Representative who made it his goal to force the FLDS out of Texas. His way of doing this was to raise the legal age of marital consent from 14 to 16, bear down on homeschooling and "cousin" marriages . He wrote a Bill designed to target those three things but his fellow Texans objected. Turns out the liked their home schooling and the right to marry a second cousin (which many states allow) if they chose. So Hilderbran re wrote his Bill still including the age of consent change from 14 to 16 and it passed. This was all back 3 years ago, shortly after the YFZ ranch was getting started. Fast forward to today, the Rangers and CPS used that legal age that Hilderbran got made into law, to raid the ranch. The end result is the FLDS have been told by the court that they are forbidden to leave the state of Texas. What have they done? Well, the FLDS have asked for voters registration forms. 300 or so of them by some accounts. The irony is that this was one of Hidlebrans expressed fears concerning this group. That they would move in and form a large voting block and try to "control things". Now due to Hilderbrans maneuvering that might be precisely what happens. I bet the everyday mainstream people living in Schleicher county wish that Hilderbran would have just stayed in his own county over 100 miles away and kept his opinions to himself.


Here is a link to that story

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/content/mobile/1,5620,700231012,00.html?printView=true


The second person of interest whose name keeps popping up all over the papers that are still covering this story, is that of Natalie Malonis. She is the court appointed guardian ad litum for one very important young lady. That lady is Teresa Jeffs. Jeffs was taken in the raid with the other children and she was the last one released and that was with restricions. She is also the last of the young women who were accused of being pregnant that werent. This is the girl that I posted the picture of climbing a tree in front of the court house a few days back.

She got on the outs with her lawyer (Malonis) back when Malonis was making a lot of statements about her which were blatantly untrue. Statements such as "I believe she has given birth and given her child to another woman" Those kind of statements. ABOUT HER OWN CLIENT. To solve the issue Teresa underwent what most have been a highly embarrassing exam. The results? Hymen intact. Still a virgin. No elusive "missing child" Apology from her lawyer? Also missing. So what does this girl do when her lawyer comes to visit her? Well she did what a lot of girls her age do. She clammed up. She refused to look at or speak to her "lawyer." What did her lawyer do? Well if you believe Teresa, and there were only the two of them in the room, she threatened that if Teresa did not talk to her it could lead to her mother being held in cotempt and her younger brothers and sisters being put back into foster care.



Great plan Malonis! Obviously Malonis believes the PR spin we were all initially fed about these girls and women. That they are meek and docile creatures who cant think or act on their own. Well this girl can. With few options and being only 16 she did the only thing she could think of. She brought public attention to her case by writing the Judge. Here is the e-mail her lawyer wrote to her after she found out she had written to Judge Walther:

"Writing that letter to the Judge was about the most foolish thing you could have done. The Judge is now convinced that you are not able to make good decisions for yourself, and she is convinced also that your mother is not able to make proper decisions for you either Teresa, the Judge wants to take you back in custody and what's worse is that these poor choices may end up with your siblings back in custody if the Judge and CPS think your mother is not able to reign you in. The judge would probably not allow me to withdraw right now even if I requested it because the Judge sees me as the only person who is looking out for what is in your legal interests."

At no point that I can find in print does Malonis show any remorse for the slanderous statements she has made about her own client. When her statements are proven to be untrue she merrily just throws law enforcement or CPS under the bus instead.

Here is an example from Brooke Adams column:

"Now the rest of the story: Not true. I spoke to Natalie today and she said it is now clear the girl has never been pregnant, never had a child. She said the initial suspicion had come from law enforcement, but was erroneous."

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2008/06/that-one-girl-she-does-not-have-child.htm

and here-

"Already, Natalie has revealed all kinds of things about Teresa in courtroom statements or filings, from suspicions the teenager had a child (wrong) to an alleged spiritual marriage (unclear) to having had sexual relations (denied) and the girl's scheduled appearance before the grand jury meeting in Schleicher County this week.
So much for grand jury secrecy.

Natalie says her source for most of this information about Teresa is CPS and law enforcement"

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2008/06/it-takes-long-time-to-get-to-san-angelo.htm


One last note - Judge Barbara Walther ruled on the restraining order Malonis requested controlling who Teresa can talk to - extending it for 90 days.

 

[Glow]

If you are undecided about whether the hearing in front of the Judge back in April was a fair one and if you want to read and decide if Judge Walther sounds like a fair judge with no opinion, just waiting to be informed, so she can make her ruling.....

go here

http://iperceive.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/schleicher204-18-08.pdf

and make up your own mind.

 

[southcitymom]

If you are undecided about whether the hearing in front of the Judge back in April was a fair one and if you want to read and decide if Judge Walther sounds like a fair judge with no opinion, just waiting to be informed, so she can make her ruling.....

go here

http://iperceive.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/schleicher204-18-08.pdf

and make up your own mind.

Oh my! If you keep posting 300+ page interesting transcrips, I am not gong to get a thing done today. Off to read....

 

[Glow]

LOL!

I dont know how to copy/paste info from a pdf document or I would have brought some of the "highlights" here. I was taking notes but at about page 40 I just got exasperated with the whole way the hearing went down. There is more news breaking about that anyhow and it is very confusing to follow so I dont know if I will get back to the "Walthering" of the FLDS moms and kids for a while. If you find anything compelling please post it?

I hope you dont get fired for "not" working :blowkiss:

 

[southcitymom]

LOL!

I dont know how to copy/paste info from a pdf document or I would have brought some of the "highlights" here. I was taking notes but at about page 40 I just got exasperated with the whole way the hearing went down. There is more news breaking about that anyhow and it is very confusing to follow so I dont know if I will get back to the "Walthering" of the FLDS moms and kids for a while. If you find anything compelling please post it?

I hope you dont get fired for "not" working :blowkiss:

I'm bogged down too and don't know if I will make it through but I will post anything interesting I find.

I'd have to fire myself for not working!! Luckily, I have a great boss!:blowkiss:

 

[thefragile7393]

They went out of their way to accomodate the FLDS mothers. Even if a breast-feeding baby had to get a bottle, I don't see that as the end of the world. In the FLDS, the kids don't even stay with their natural mothers, they have several women care for them, so why is this any different???

Wow. Just....wow. Sorry, I had to comment on this. It dosn't matter WHO the real mom is, but there was a central mother figure, or several, and to be torn away from ALL of them? And perhaps you would have liked to have met my son when he was younger, who WOULD NOT FOR ANYTHING take a bottle of anything. Many bf'ed babies are like this. As others have pointed out, yes this would be very traumatizing for a child who uses a breast for food AND comfort and it would feel like the end of the world for that child. Very very callous thinking.

 

[LinasK]

Wow. Just....wow. Sorry, I had to comment on this. It dosn't matter WHO the real mom is, but there was a central mother figure, or several, and to be torn away from ALL of them? And perhaps you would have liked to have met my son when he was younger, who WOULD NOT FOR ANYTHING take a bottle of anything. Many bf'ed babies are like this. As others have pointed out, yes this would be very traumatizing for a child who uses a breast for food AND comfort and it would feel like the end of the world for that child. Very very callous thinking.

Sorry, if there are several substitute "mothers", not the person breast-feeding, I have great difficulty believing a baby gets attached to all of them. I also don't believe that CPS tore breast-feeding babies away, this is all FLDS propaganda, and F.Y.I. I breast-fed my daughter for 9 months and supplemented with one bottle a day and it didn't harm her.

It seems you would prefer to leave an at-risk baby with her abuser, just so that she could be breast-fed.

 

[Glow]

Perhaps hearing it from a lawyer who has no need to perjure herself will help.

This is NOT FLDS propaganda. It is a fact.


CPS separated all children older than one year from their parents, causing untold stress for everyone involved and in particular for breastfeeding children who were suddenly and involuntarily weaned; breastfeeding mothers forced to pump breast milk many times a day, and worry exponentially more.

“Amanda and I both had clients who were breastfeeding,” said Balovich, who represents 7 of the mothers, “yet in one case [for example] my client was only seeing her daughter for only an hour a week.”

In another case, Chisolm learned from one of the ad litem attorneys that a breastfeeding baby just separated from its mother (one of her clients) would not feed from the surrogate, something that could quickly turn into a life-or-death crisis. Further, Chisolm and the mother were unsure where the baby was. When the baby was finally located, the CPS caseworker, says Balovich, refused to allow the baby to nurse with or see its mother, instead merely retrieving bottled breastmilk from the child’s mom to bring back to the child.


http://www.bigbendgazette.com/blog/_archives/2008/7/1/3771392.html

 

[LinasK]

Perhaps hearing it from a lawyer who has no need to perjure herself will help.

This is NOT FLDS propaganda. It is a fact.


CPS separated all children older than one year from their parents, causing untold stress for everyone involved and in particular for breastfeeding children who were suddenly and involuntarily weaned; breastfeeding mothers forced to pump breast milk many times a day, and worry exponentially more.

“Amanda and I both had clients who were breastfeeding,” said Balovich, who represents 7 of the mothers, “yet in one case [for example] my client was only seeing her daughter for only an hour a week.”

In another case, Chisolm learned from one of the ad litem attorneys that a breastfeeding baby just separated from its mother (one of her clients) would not feed from the surrogate, something that could quickly turn into a life-or-death crisis. Further, Chisolm and the mother were unsure where the baby was. When the baby was finally located, the CPS caseworker, says Balovich, refused to allow the baby to nurse with or see its mother, instead merely retrieving bottled breastmilk from the child’s mom to bring back to the child.


http://www.bigbendgazette.com/blog/_archives/2008/7/1/3771392.html

The child still got breast-milk, not formula, which now by the way contains DHA, and nobody was "forced" to pump. Furthermore, the benefits of breast-feeding beyond one year are questionable.