The Rest of the Story...

Its encouraging to see that word is getting out and that this topic is staying on peoples minds. These are the stories that people are reading and e-mailing to others. One reason may be that the AP has finally quit publishing the rhetoric from CPS and started publishing the facts. Three of the top ten spots.


Ten most e-mailed stories from gosanangelo.com:

1. RICK SMITH: Elmer Kelton statue project begins
2. CPS, judge threatened American foundation
3. Coleman 'a unique individual'
4. RICK SMITH: "She gave me my life back."
5. All-West Texas Baseball capsules
6. RICK SMITH: Huge reunion brings family together
7. San Angelo schools name new campus leaders
8. CPS actions damaged children
9. ASU programs thinking bigger
10. Sect case grand jury finishes for the day without issuing indictments
 
Constitutionality of Texas Change in Marriage Age – Prior to the FLDS establishing YFZ the State of Texas issued over 800 legal marriage licenses per year for girls under the age of 16 to marry and often to men twice their age.



http://crustylogic.blogspot.com/

doesn't matter....that was PRIOR to new law...

My grandmother married at 14 back in her day but now it's ILLEGAL just as it's ILLEGAL in Texas now....so I don't see your point.:rolleyes:
 
My point is laws come and go. They change with the politics and social mores of the times. If we are going to look at the morality of a law, then we have to look at it from both sides and apply things equally.

For example, lets take the laws that apply to drinking. In one state you may find an open container law and also a higher legal blood alcohol limit. In a neighboring state a driver is not allowed even have an open beer in their hand AND the legal limit is lower. So is anyone breaking the law if they follow the law of that state? No they are not. But drive 5 miles over the state line and do the same thing and god forbid have a car wreck while doing it and now you are in serious trouble. Neither one of those states is really addressing the moral issue of what role alcohol and driving play when you mix the two.

The law in the state of Texas was changed because of one man. He was a man with an agenda. State Rep. Harvey Hilderbran. In his own words he said

"I wanted to make it unappealing to them," Hilderbran said. "I hoped they wouldn't stay."

He wanted to amend Texas' marriage laws to protect minors and prevent polygamy, bigamy and interfamily marriage. But the people of Texas (not the FLDS) complained the bill would prevent THEM from marrying their second cousins!

Hilderbran successfully attached the marriage amendments to a Child Protective Services bill that also contained certain family law matters and was less controversial. (The bill received no opposition in committee and passed the House with about 85 percent of the vote.) His amendment raised the minimum marriage age from 14 to 16 and made violation of the law a first-degree felony. It also reaffirmed the state's prohibition of bigamy and polygamy and made clear that ceremonies performed in place of legal marriage would not be exempted.



This was in 2005. No one changed the law because of concern for children. The law was changed because Hilderbran didn't want this particular group around.

So many people have said "good for Texas for changing that law!"

ok

so prior to 2005 would we say Texas was "bad"?

and if you flip that particular thought coin over, does that mean now that the YFZ leadership has sworn to raise the age to 16 that they are also "good", like Texas?
 
My point is laws come and go. They change with the politics and social mores of the times. If we are going to look at the morality of a law, then we have to look at it from both sides and apply things equally.

For example, lets take the laws that apply to drinking. In one state you may find an open container law and also a higher legal blood alcohol limit. In a neighboring state a driver is not allowed even have an open beer in their hand AND the legal limit is lower. So is anyone breaking the law if they follow the law of that state? No they are not. But drive 5 miles over the state line and do the same thing and god forbid have a car wreak while doing it and now you are in serious trouble. Neither one of those states is really addressing the moral issue of what role alcohol and driving play when you mix the two.

The law in the state of Texas was changed because of one man. He was a man with an agenda. State Rep. Harvey Hilderbran. In his own words he said
"I wanted to make it unappealing to them," Hilderbran said. "I hoped they wouldn't stay."

He wanted to amend Texas' marriage laws to protect minors and prevent polygamy, bigamy and interfamily marriage. But the people of Texas (not the FLDS) complained the bill would prevent THEM from marrying their second cousins!

Hilderbran successfully attached the marriage amendments to a Child Protective Services bill that also contained certain family law matters and was less controversial. (The bill received no opposition in committee and passed the House with about 85 percent of the vote.) His amendment raised the minimum marriage age from 14 to 16 and made violation of the law a first-degree felony. It also reaffirmed the state's prohibition of bigamy and polygamy and made clear that ceremonies performed in place of legal marriage would not be exempted.



This was in 2005. No one changed the law because of concern for children. The law was changed because Hilderbran didn't want this particular group around.

So many people have said "good for Texas for changing that law!"

ok

so prior to 2005 would we say Texas was "bad"?

and if you flip that particular thought coin over, does that mean now that the YFZ leadership has sworn to raise the age to 16 that they are also "good", like Texas?

Excellent post. The law is a living, breathing, changing thing - it is very important for us to look at what changes in us to change them and the "whys" surrounding the shifts.

I predict that - in answer to the last question regarding flipping the coin and calling YFZ "good" now, many folks will just say "I don't believe they are really going to abide by that." For those who have discounted as "bad" everything about the YFZ (without looking at the grey all over the place), the case is closed and they are completely bad forever.
 
A couple of days ago I posted about the HOPE organization and their efforts to help the "lost boys". I was impressed by their neutrality and their focus on helping not judging. The article also mentioned two powerful groups who are voices for polygamy that are NOT connected with FLDS. Principle Voices and the Centennial Park Action Committee. Principal voices is headed up by two women, one of which is Mary Batchelor. She gave a speech in April where she addressed the situation occurring in Texas. Mary defines herself as an "Independent Fundamentalist Mormon". She is NOT FLDS as she mentions in her speech below. This is a transcript of her speech from back in April.


blogspot.com/2008/04/mary-batchelors-introductory-comments.html


* Some of you requested a copy of Mary's introductory remarks at Monday's rally at the City and County Building. They are transcribed below.

RALLY IN SUPPORT OF FLDS WOMEN AND CHILDREN AFTER TEXAS RAID
April 14, 2008
(Introduction by Mary Batchelor, Director of Principle Voices)


To begin, we want to explain who we are and what we are doing. I'm Mary Batchelor; I'm the director of Principle Voices. Our organization is a non-profit organization that is dedicated to building bridges between the Fundamentalist Mormon culture and members outside of that culture including representatives of government agencies, non-government agencies, service providers and the average citizen. We have been actively involved in the Utah and Arizona Attorney Generals’ Safety Net. We feel we have accomplished a great deal of good with the Safety Net. Over the last several years, we have actively worked to bring representatives of the Fundamentalist Mormon Culture from several different groups that practice polygamy to become involved in the Safety net and participate openly with government officers as well as service providers.

Our great disappointment is that we never were able to encourage the FLDS people to come forward.

Our hearts go out to the women and children of that community. As you can imagine, many of the people of the Fundamentalist Mormon culture have parents and grandparents who were involved in the 1953 raid. The raid in Texas was deeply personal and felt very eerily similar to what their families had experienced. It’s been a shock-wave of a great deal of pain and emotional grief. We cannot explain the depth of that grief for these people.

That in no way justifies if there is abuse in that community, or if there are problems, or if the allegations that come out of that community are true, they must be investigated, and we recognize that. We are not here to justify anything or to condemn anyone.

You cannot strip a culture of value system, or a foundational belief from a human being and not expect that it will cause identity crisis and internal trauma. These children do have a cultural identity, they have a religious belief that is very similar to Mormonism and the LDS belief system.
Heidi is going to talk at greater length about the things that we have collected, but what we have here is just the beginning. We have more offers coming in. We know that we are going to continue to receive more donations for these people. The exciting thing about this is that it has a dual purpose for us. This was created in response to an outpouring of phone calls, people who have called me, even men in tears, both from inside and outside our cultures who wanted to do something. They asked me, “Can you get this money and these things to them if we get them to you?”
One of the things that we did was to collect letters from women and children from our communities to let them share their feelings with the women and children of the FLDS and help them know that they are not alone, that this foreign place that they are in is not full of hatred and antagonism, that there are people outside that do love them, and we want to applaud people from all over this country, from their churches, from everywhere, who have brought donations to those shelters and poured out their hearts for those kids and their mothers.

The second part of the dual purpose of this, we learned it second hand, we learned it vicariously, we didn't realize this was going to be a benefit that came out of this process... It was personally therapeutic for us to be able to do this, write these letters and work on this activity. It has helped us to work through our own emotions about the raids of the forties and fifties, and the experiences that we still feel, and we still carry the wounds around with us even generations later.


A post script to this speech is that the FLDS leadership met with these two groups recently. A formerly unheard of thing.
 
Glow, I am a big fan of wholesome food, and country living, and all of the other good things you mention. There are plenty of people in America who value a simple country life. That is not the issue here. Nobody is trying to take that away.

The one thing that is most disturbing about the FLDS is that they have imprisoned their young daughters for generations and forced them to submit to sex with older male relatives. Can you please give us your opinion of this one aspect of this case. Thank you.

And to piggyback onto your post, NOONE has forced the FLDS children to eat "crappy" food as Glow stated. There are plenty of healthy alternatives ranging from buying them organic food at markets like Whole Foods chain- which I know for a fact exists in the state of Texas, to doing their own gardening. Noone has forced them to eat meat, or nachos with CheeseWhiz!
 
I asked this question earlier, but I wanted to post it again. So many seem to feel these girls are being denied an education. I was wondering about the educational level of all of us posting here. We are free and mainstream and can get as much education as we want. So how much did you get? How about your moms? Your daughters? Your sisters? Your friends?

F.Y.I. I have a Master's Degree and went back for a certificate in another field for 4 years. My sister also has her Master's Degree. My mother was only able to obtain her high school diploma. My daughter will be in 2nd grade and we emphasize getting a college education all the time! I also have many college educated friends.
 
And to piggyback onto your post, NOONE has forced the FLDS children to eat "crappy" food as Glow stated. There are plenty of healthy alternatives ranging from buying them organic food at markets like Whole Foods chain- which I know for a fact exists in the state of Texas, to doing their own gardening. Noone has forced them to eat meat, or nachos with CheeseWhiz!


Glow never stated that.
 
Should breastfeeding babies be physically torn out of their mothers arms with no proof that they have ever been harmed and without any charges OR legal representation? What proof is there of that???

Also the women. I have seen these women made fun of because of how they dress. How they wear their hair. Even how they speak. How sad. How sad that we mainstream women who claim such great pride in our liberated views and the empowerment of women have reduced ourselves to trashing these women on such petty things. What about our own horrendous beehive hairdo's of the 60's? What about some of the clothes that went along with those hairdo's? Think Go- Go boots and fishnet stockings for example. Big difference. Those women chose those styles.We really have room to criticize their clothes? What does that have to do with anything??? As far as how they speak it is completely moronic to criticize them. Any people in a closed community begin to talk alike. That is not unique to them. Have you ever noticed the entire Kennedy family? From Ted to Maria. They all have the same jawline the same mannarisms the same accent and the same inflection. The FLDS are not alone in that.

The reason their hair and style of clothing is analyzed is because it is regimented, dictated- think Stepford Wives, and designed to be oppressive. Not because it's the color, style, or hair style we're commenting on! I have no problem with long hair or braids, if the women are given a choice, but they are not. They are told this is the only hair style. They can't get it cut or wear it short if they choose.


And lastly this case is about religion. Everybody gets a little scared to mention that but it is still true. These people practice and believe some things that are putting them at odds with the laws of the state they live in. Naturally SOMETHING is going to have to be decided. This age old and global clash of religion VS government is in part, why we even have a country called America.
Not when their "religion" is an excuse for child abuse. You wouldn't let them get away with murder in the name of religion, neither should abuse be excused.
 
Montana,

Im sorry that this thread bothers you that much. I have thought at times what would I do if I was on the opposing side of my own argument.

If I hated the FLDS and wanted the truth to come out.

My answer to myself was that I would dig and find the links that would support what CPS did. I would disprove their unkindness to the innocent children they took into custody.

I would disprove the cloudy questions about the constitutionality of their actions.

I would find ONE thing other than the under aged marriage to bury these people with. I think I would begin with

their financial operations (highly suspect)

the reputations of their "leaders" (ditto)

and the problem of the "lost boys" (that one really bothers me personally)

Umm, Glow if you check this forum's archives we already have threads on the FLDS on all of those very topics, and yes they have lied much including the reason they purchased the property in Texas- claimed it was going to be for corporate hunting parties.
 
Glow never stated that.

Do I need to search back through this thread to find your posts? I know you stated it at least twice in those exact words. I may be late to this thread, for the very reasons other posters have stated- your obvious bias against CPS and towards believing anything that comes out from the FLDS propagandists- but I am not stupid.
 
Glow never stated that.


You are right Linask. I did state that. Here is the post # 132.

As to whether the food was "crappy" I guess it would really boil down to ones perspective.

If these people were strict vegans and the children had been forced to eat hamburgers maybe that would have bothered people more. As it was, they got fed sugar and white flour and processed foods which upset their stomachs. That is the way "we" eat - but it wasnt the way "they" were used to eating. I havent seen one place where the women complained about their own stomachs getting upset, just about the effect it was having on their children. Im sure being held in a stable formally used to hold horses and where there was still hay on the floor - which the women had to clean up themselves) and having to bathe the children in a bucket didnt help the children any either. When children are thrown off their routine it is like tapping the first domino in a row of dominos....
 
F.Y.I. I have a Master's Degree and went back for a certificate in another field for 4 years. My sister also has her Master's Degree. My mother was only able to obtain her high school diploma. My daughter will be in 2nd grade and we emphasize getting a college education all the time! I also have many college educated friends.



That is wonderful that you have that LinasK. You have done really well and deserve commendation for all of the hard work that took on your part.

As for myself, I really dont care about the educational level of any poster on here. I go by the content of the post when I read it. I have met people with a 6th grade education that I consider highly intellectual as well as highly educated people who are lacking in other areas. Spelling, punctuation, sentence structure and so on are not really important to me either. Does the content of the post reveal a keen and open mind? That is what I ask myself when I read a post. But that is just me, other people have other things they look for in a post. We are all different.

I only brought that up because it had been said over and over that these women are bring denied a higher education. I thought it would be interesting to do a self analysis of us mainstream women. The fact is most of mainstream America - women that is - didnt begin to really avail themselves of all the educational opportunities available to them until the last decade.

We already know that part of the culture of the FLDS is to live BEHIND the times. So it would fit then, that they would be at least as far behind as mainstream women were a decade ago. The more it becomes possible to get degrees via the Internet that might change. I suspect that it is contact with "us" and our college campus environment that they dont want their young people exposed to much more so than the actual knowledge from books.
 
Interesting points to ponder if a person believes strongly in the seperation of church and state.


quote

"Texans should be questioning why a religious organization is put in a supervisory position over state, county and city personnel under any circumstances."

On April 5, two days after the police assault on the YFZ ranch, the state of Texas contacted San Antonio-based Baptist Child & Family Services (BCFS)requesting that BCFS oversee the operations at the San Angelo concentration camps. BCFS chief executive Kevin Dinnin was appointed to command the operation. According to the Associated Baptist Press, BCFS was involved in logistics and security operations as well. Some of the duties bragged about in the ABP article:

* During the three weeks the children and mothers were housed in San Angelo before a court ordered the children placed in child-care facilities across the state, approximately 1,000 state, county, and city personnel and volunteers worked under BCFS supervision.

http://texaslastfrontier.com/prairi...5/19/texas-baptists-provided-command-aamp-con
 
The Salvation Army took quite a different stand on this matter than the Baptists did.


quote
"In this context, a real humanitarian organization, the Salvation Army, refused to allow the FLDS mothers and children to be separated on their property when CPS asked. BCFS seems to have had no scruples about going for those CPS $$$ even at the cost of tearing children out of weeping mothers’ arms. And don’t tell me that “this was all a humanitarian operation.” That does not wash."

http://iperceive.net/texas-cps-100k-club-members-bcfs-janel-voss/#more-514
 
What are you saying Glow? That no one working with the children after the raid should be paid?
 
Why would I say that? That would be unreasonable. People should get paid when they work.

What I am "saying" is that it is highly interesting to see that the Baptist Organization mentioned above was overseeing the government instead of the other way around. Apparently on a state county and local level.

Remember we are not talking about people just going to work and getting a paycheck. We are talking about government contracts that run in EXCESS of $100,000.00.

That is $100,000.00 worth of taxpayers money going into the hands of a religion. I am using a conservative estimate too. One place I read placed that number at $527,236.00. There was no proof offered so I dont want to use that estimate. I like to stick with things that can be proven. Regardless the point is made that this is big business.
 
Yes, it is big business and many states use private agencies when foster care is needed. It doesn't mean the people working for the agencies are not caring or that the individual employees of these agencies make huge salaries.
 
Youre right. Only a precious few are making the really big bucks. I cant wait to see if the "Voss" lady (who is one of those making the really big bucks) is related to Angie Voss.

Maybe? Maybe not?
 

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