The Rest of the Story...

[SewingDeb]

Glow, also wondering why you find anything other than underage marriages. Isn't that enough? Especially when the young girl is not in love and would never choose that particular man to be married to.

 

[Glow]

Glow, my parents were college graduates. My oldest daughter graduated from college this year, my middle daughter is in college and my youngest daughter just graduated high school and will go to college in the fall.

I don't know about everyone else but I imagine they believe in education as well. Why are you so intent on comparing mainstream society with FLDS?

I'm not so much trying to compare as I am trying to eliminate the negatives. Thank for responding by the way...you are the only one who has. I would think that talking about education would be bring a bigger response than it has, given all the criticism.

 

[Pepper]

I agree with you Jolynna. I think everyone agrees with the things you have outlined above.

One of the things I havent felt I could give an opinion on is the "lost boys" I am still reading the various statements on that and trying to discern where the truth lies.

Again, if you would read Carolyn Jessop's book or view Laurie Allen's documentary you would have your answer. I loaned the book to a friend, so I don't have it back yet, but she talks about a wealthy dentist in Salt Lake City who took her family in for awhile. This dentist has a foundation for the benefit of the Lost Boys and gives them food and housing (a half-way house of sorts) until they can get it together. Many have turned to male prostitution and drugs. In Laurie Allen's documentary there are several who are interviewed. Dr. Phil also had a show on them and two were interviewed. I don't know why you think this isn't factual. There is plenty of evidence.

 

[Glow]

Hi Pepper,

When you have time go back and read my link about the "dentist."

 

[Pepper]

Good grief I am actually qouting my own post - I was too lazy to retype :doh:


A lot of concern has been expressed over the education that the young women get in the FLDS. I was wanting to pose the same question again. Logically, if we are going to fault these women for not getting a good education, then we on the outside are availing ourselves of that I assume. I would really like to hear whatanyone thinks on that topic.

Again, you are missing the point! NO ONE IS FAULTING THE WOMEN FOR NOT GETTING A GOOD EDUCATION. We are faulting the FLDS MALE LEADERSHIP for not allowing women a public education that includes high school and college IF THEY CHOOSE TO GO TO COLLEGE.

AND NONE OF THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT WE ARE COLLEGE EDUCATED! Some of us are and some are not. So what's your point?
:bang:

 

[SewingDeb]

Amen Pepper! No one is faulting the FLDS women for their lack of higher education. That is certainly not their fault.

 

[SewingDeb]

And, I might add, those outside the FLDS compound at least have a chance to continue our education (and not just in school).

 

[Glow]

Again, if you would read Carolyn Jessop's book or view Laurie Allen's documentary you would have your answer. I loaned the book to a friend, so I don't have it back yet, but she talks about a wealthy dentist in Salt Lake City who took her family in for awhile. This dentist has a foundation for the benefit of the Lost Boys and gives them food and housing (a half-way house of sorts) until they can get it together. Many have turned to male prostitution and drugs. In Laurie Allen's documentary there are several who are interviewed. Dr. Phil also had a show on them and two were interviewed. I don't know why you think this isn't factual. There is plenty of evidence.

I posted above, please go back and read my links about this "wealthy dentist"

thanks Pepper.

 

[Glow]

Again, you are missing the point! NO ONE IS FAULTING THE WOMEN FOR NOT GETTING A GOOD EDUCATION. We are faulting the FLDS MALE LEADERSHIP for not allowing women a public education that includes high school and college IF THEY CHOOSE TO GO TO COLLEGE.

AND NONE OF THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT WE ARE COLLEGE EDUCATED! Some of us are and some are not. So what's your point?
:bang:

My point is that most mainstream women do not avail themselves of the opportunity to go to college either. How many women among us have a college education? In one of the FLDS towns 1/3 of the paramedics are FLDS women. That requires going to college. Also, the Amish dont stress a higher education for their girls either and no one decry's that. No one is saying "what about their right to chose" That is only said about the FLDS.

For American women in general, the idea of going to college is just beginning to grow. Just in the last decade. We all know that the FLDS are trying to live a lifestyle that goes back 100 years or more. Their educational system is consistant with the rest of their lifestyle.

A generation ago, it was expected that most middle-class boys would go on to college after high school and land high-paying, white-collar jobs after that. Women were presumed to be headed for a life of homemaking or low-paid administrative or service labor.


sound like the FLDS? It isnt. This is an article about mainstream American women

http://education-portal.com/article...en_Go_to_College_in_Ever-Greater_Numbers.html

There have been some interesting studies done that show a correlation between women taking on administrative positions formally held by men and increased rates of disease. Diseases formally seen as more "men's" diseases. Heart disease for one. It appears that the more women move up the career ladder, the more the stress begins to get to them physically. We will have to wait and see if those correlations prove correct, but in the meantime why encourage other cultures within us to do something that we dont know is actually "better" in the long run. We dont know at this point if highly educating our daughters and pushing them out into corporate America to use those degrees is the course to a life time of health and happiness.

Until we know that we have something better to offer, why criticize?

 

[Pepper]

I posted above, please go back and read my links about this "wealthy dentist"

thanks Pepper.

I did and I think your sources are biased.

First of all FLDS people lie. That is a given. That is how they were taught, and it's a part of their belief system. You simply cannot trust an FLDS person to tell the truth.

Secondly even former FLDS can't always be believed. Some are "former" because the leadership decided the person wasn't worthy. But that doesn't automatically mean that the ex-communicated person renounced the belief, only that the leadership renounced that person. And just because a person either voluntarily chooses to leave FLDS or if that person is kicked to the curb by FLDS elders does not mean that the former FLDS will renounce the religion. They may continue to defend it, because to deny it would mean that they would have to admit to themselves and others that it was a "false" religion and they were duped. That's hard for the egos of many people, especially men. I've read alot on the subject, and I've seen former FLDS (especially men) continue to defend the beliefs of the religion and the propaganda of the leaders.

 

[SewingDeb]

Glow,

Do you think it is better for women not to be highly educated? With the divorce rate in this country, I want my daughters to have careers and never have to depend on a husband who will be there one day and maybe gone the next.

As soon as my oldest daughter graduated this year, she was given a position on first shift with twice the pay at the firm she works for. Financial security is important.

Sure there is stress in any job but having a job with lower pay and maybe several children to take care of and questionable child support...isn't that stressful too?

 

[SewingDeb]

Glow, you said:

Amish dont stress a higher education for their girls either and no one decry's that. No one is saying "what about their right to chose" That is only said about the FLDS.

That's because this thread is about the FLDS and not the Amish. To my knowlege the Amish are not forcing marriage on very young girls so scrutiny is not on them.

 

[SewingDeb]

Pepper, some choose to believe only the FLDS not withstanding all the books and interviews with former FLDS members. I guess we can't get past that on this thread.

 

[Pepper]

Glow, you said:

Amish dont stress a higher education for their girls either and no one decry's that. No one is saying "what about their right to chose" That is only said about the FLDS.

That's because this thread is about the FLDS and not the Amish. To my knowlege the Amish are not forcing marriage on very young girls so scrutiny is not on them.

FWIW I have written plenty on the Amish, child abuse (physical and sexual), and their lack of independent higher education for both sexes right here on Websleuths. There are some similarities between the two groups, but the Amish do not force marriage on underage girls, do not practice polygamy, and allow their young freedom of choice, both in their selection of a spouse, but also in their decision to remain in the religion. But SewingDeb is right. This discussion is about the FLDS.

 

[Glow]

FWIW I have written plenty on the Amish, child abuse (physical and sexual), and their lack of independent higher education for both sexes right here on Websleuths. There are some similarities between the two groups, but the Amish do not force marriage on underage girls, do not practice polygamy, and allow their young freedom of choice, both in their selection of a spouse, but also in their decision to remain in the religion. But SewingDeb is right. This discussion is about the FLDS.

Yes, the discussion is about the FLDS. I merely mentioned the Amish as a point of reference. In the same vein, a few pages back I mentioned another group, the Catholics and how just 50 years ago a girls duty was to grow up and marry a nice Catholic guy and produce as many children as possible....

again, just a point of reference.


I didnt know that you had written about the Amish Pepper. Im sorry that I missed that as I would have loved to hear your thoughts. Was that back when the shootings took place?

 

[Glow]

Glow,

Do you think it is better for women not to be highly educated? With the divorce rate in this country, I want my daughters to have careers and never have to depend on a husband who will be there one day and maybe gone the next.

As soon as my oldest daughter graduated this year, she was given a position on first shift with twice the pay at the firm she works for. Financial security is important.

Sure there is stress in any job but having a job with lower pay and maybe several children to take care of and questionable child support...isn't that stressful too?

I think that we agree 100% SewingDeb. I was relentless in getting my daughter to do just what you said for the very same reason. She did end up divorced and was able to open her own business - thanks to going to school.

My point about women and careers was more of an observation on an anthropological level. If we zoom out and look at the very big picture, I am not sure that we as women are "better off" then we were 50 years ago, or even 100. The right to vote was definitely a biggie but other than that? Divorce rates are soaring, spousal abuse, child abuse you name it. Kids are all in institutionalized settings during the day instead of home with relatives.
The number of prescriptions written for anti anxiety medications keeps going up and up and many people (especially women ) feel over worked, stressed and exhausted.

I am not so sure that the presumption that life is "better" now is correct. Especially not in terms of our health and emotions. It is different but is it better? That is what we wont know until more time has passed. I would not want to encourage a woman that has no mortgage, time to garden, extremely low rate of divorce and young children to give that up for the rat race of modern America. Why?

I just dont feel that we have all the answers as to the best way to live. Maybe our way is doing more damage to the family unit (the basic building block of society) than we know at this time.

 

[Glow]

Pepper, some choose to believe only the FLDS not withstanding all the books and interviews with former FLDS members. I guess we can't get past that on this thread.

Hi SewingDeb, I saw that this post was directed to Pepper but if by the word some you meant me I just wanted to say that the man I quoted on the lost boys is FORMER FLDS. He is not FLDS anymore.

 

[Glow]

I did and I think your sources are biased.

I agree. All sources are biased. That is why we have to look at each thing from every angle.

My original statement on the lost boys was I DO NOT believe the FLDS on this topic.

My reason was that simple math seems to indicate to me that clustering females with one male would lead to too many extra single males.

That seems like common sense to me. I now need to test my personal feelings against the facts that are out there in order to see if my personal opinion lines up with reality. If it does, fine.

If it does not then I need to adjust my opinion to fit the facts.

That is what I am attempting to do and I am bringing what I find here so that others may do the same for themselves if they would like.

 

[Glow]

I have been reading a lot pro/con on the "lost boys". One thing overall is apparent. These young men dont have some of the coping skills that mainstream boys have. They are the kind of life skills that wouldn't have been necessary within the FDLS environment.

I know that even in mainstream American churches, the teen years can be hard with boys. That is when you see the big plunge in membership. And that is even though most churches tolerate the piercing the tattoos and turn a blind eye to engaging in sex and drinking. It is a dont ask dont tell policy and the churches CERTAINLY dont excommunicate for this. There are always girls who grow away from the church in this age group, but the number of boys seems higher.

The FLDS do practice excommunication or shunning of erring members AND they have a standard that would be almost impossible to live up to if you are a young person, especially a young man.

I really liked reading about Elaine Tyler. She runs the HOPE organization.

quote
"She has become known as the woman you go to if you need a place to stay, some clothes, diapers for your kids or money to keep your power from getting shut off at the end of the month. Her group has provided help for dozens of women, children and the so-called "Lost Boys" who have either fled or been kicked out of the polygamous communities of Hildale and Colorado City."

(interesting that they said the so called Lost Boys)


Some of them make DO have a rebel spirit apparently as she has helped them with legal run ins with the law...

quote
"For the ones who get in trouble with the law, Tyler has persuaded the Washington County attorney to ask judges to enroll them in life skills classes and Job Corps instead of sentencing them to jail.
"I'm totally receptive to this idea," Washington County Attorney Brock Belnap said last month. "I'd like to see them gain the sort of skills that can help them succeed with jobs, education and in their personal lives."

What I most liked about this woman and her group is what she has been able to accomplish with her non judgmental attitude.

A powerful polygamist group, Principle Voices praises HOPES efforts. As well another polygamist group, The Centennial Park Action Committee.

The coordinator of the Utah Attorney General's Safety Net Committee also praises her. This group was created to build bridges and deal with abuse within polygamous communities.

Here is what I mean by her non judgmental attitude,

quote
"We are not anti-polygamy at all. We are not going to debate the pros and cons of polygamy. We just help the people in that community because we feel like it's been underserved," she said. "I don't care if they practice polygamy or not, that's their decision. I don't think they've been treated well, and I think that's wrong."

So shes got the state and polygamist as well as non polygamist groups all supporting her. And shes getting things done.

I am impressed.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20060528/ai_n16434994/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

 

[SewingDeb]

I am impressed too. I have to say that, for myself, polygamy is not the issue and never was. I don't care if consenting ADULTS enter into polygamous marriages. That is their choice. In the FLDS, it is very different and that is the crux of the problem they are facing now.