The Rest of the Story...

[Glow]

Another look at how mainstream society is doing with its teen pregnancy issues....

Dallas Morning News—June 7, 2008

Now 16, Catherine is one of 142 students from Arlington's 2,693-student Sam Houston High School who are either new or expecting parents. More than half are Hispanic. And nearly a third of the Arlington Independent School District's 451 teen parents come from this school….

The latest figures from the CDC show that in 2005, some 80,050 teenagers ages 15 to 19 were pregnant in Texas – 39 percent of whom were Hispanic. Texas is No. 2 in the nation in the rate of teen pregnancy in that age group, with 61.4 births per 1,000 in 2005, second only to the District of Columbia, which had 63.4 births per 1,000, according to the CDC.

 

[Pepper]

How does this relate to the FLDS?

 

[Glow]

How does this relate to the FLDS?

A lot of people are very off put and rightfully so, by the idea of any young woman having her choices limited or her body not being under her own control.

I think these are basic moral rights and I dont know anyone who doesn't believe and support this ideal.

Having said that, I also am forced to recognize that reality can fall far short of the ideal. What then? Well in the case of mainstream society we just enable the forces that are creating the statistics.

As a mainstream society we are unable or unwilling to address the issue in any kind of a focused way that actually accomplishes anything. We live with that quite comfortably every day.

However, when small group of people are found that "might" (turns out they didnt) have some pregnant teens, that justifies a raid with tanks and CPS and the taking of over 400 children from their homes.

In the aftermath people (mostly feminists) wail and bemoan the "fate" of these poor choice less girls wish they could have been held (against their choice) by a system with a horrific record of abuse. If not that, then at the very least they wish that these poor "choice less" girls could have all of the wonderful advantages of mainstream teen aged girls....you know, the ones I mentioned in bold in the above post that you asked about.

 

[Pepper]

I think you are trying to compare apples and oranges.

Underage pregnancy is a huge problem in the US and a huge contributor toward poverty. It is worth discussion, but deserves it's own thread somewhere else.

 

[Glow]

Yes. I get the apples and oranges thing a lot. Usually when people cannot logically refute what I have just said.

I am not saying that about you Pepper :blowkiss:that statement is meant to express that I hear that a lot and why it is that I hear it. In my own opinion.

As far as starting a thread about teen pregnancy I think it would get a few indignant posts and then sink into a generalized lethargy that we see mirrored in real life.

If you want to start a thread that will draw out all kinds of bigotry and narrow minded prejudices people didn't even know they had, then start a thread about a weird little group of people that no one relates to and that has a problem that mainstream society has as well and insist that these people deserve the same rights and dignity that we allow for ourselves.

Do that? Then you will have a thread that people will reply to. Of course the reply's will consist of personal attacks, posters reminiscing of past wrongs from their own personal past, and lots of superlatives.

Nobody wants to talk about administering justice with an even hand. Nobody wants to talk about other groups that have the same issues.

Another thing nobody wants to talk about is what really bothers them about this case - and it is NOT the underaged pregnancies or we would see that outrage across the board.

 

[Rino]

I know this post has a high probability of being misquoted.

Bwhahahahahahahah....right again

 

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

However, when small group of people are found that "might" (turns out they didnt) have some pregnant teens, that justifies a raid with tanks and CPS and the taking of over 400 children from their homes.

This case is not about whether young girls are pregnant or not. The case is about whether there is a group of men controlling the women and raping the children. It is about whether the women have a choice or not in who they marry and who they have sex with. The teen pregnancy is just an indicator of the problem. Teen pregnancy is not the problem and the reason for the raid - in this situation it is an indicator of abuse.

You are mistaken if you think this is just a case is simply about girls that "might" be pregnant.

 

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

Yes. I get the apples and oranges thing a lot. Usually when people cannot logically refute what I have just said.

I am not saying that about you Pepper :blowkiss:that statement is meant to express that I hear that a lot and why it is that I hear it. In my own opinion.

As far as starting a thread about teen pregnancy I think it would get a few indignant posts and then sink into a generalized lethargy that we see mirrored in real life.

If you want to start a thread that will draw out all kinds of bigotry and narrow minded prejudices people didn't even know they had, then start a thread about a weird little group of people that no one relates to and that has a problem that mainstream society has as well and insist that these people deserve the same rights and dignity that we allow for ourselves.

Do that? Then you will have a thread that people will reply to. Of course the reply's will consist of personal attacks, posters reminiscing of past wrongs from their own personal past, and lots of superlatives.

Nobody wants to talk about administering justice with an even hand. Nobody wants to talk about other groups that have the same issues.

Another thing nobody wants to talk about is what really bothers them about this case - and it is NOT the underaged pregnancies or we would see that outrage across the board.

Wow, Glow. Did you really just say all of this? Your posts seem to have twisted as time has gone along. I agree that the system needs to be followed. We all get that. If we disagree with the system then we have to work to get it changed. There are some good and bad things with the system. Unfortunately, when it comes to CPS issues everyone gets hurt.

• I have seen posts from you that seem to support following due process. That is a fair statement
• I have seen posts from you saying that the FLDS were hurt in the "raid". That is a fair statement
• I have seen too many posts from you attacking those that suspect there are troubles within the FLDS. Those posts are beyond excessive at this point. Is it really necessary to continue to insult those that are concerned that little girls may be raped or that they are being forced to marry people they don't want to.
• We have a different point of view. You are convinced there have been no crimes committed by the FLDS. The rest of us are not so sure. Those children deserve to have someone looking out for them and watching to make sure they are protected. If we have to fight an uphill battle and build evidence slowly, then that is all that can be done.
• I see the main issue that frustrates everyone as the lack of proof. You can't prove to me that every one is innocent, any more than I can prove that people are guilty. I can however say that things are very suspicious...

 

[SewingDeb]

Excellent post RainbowsAndGumdrops.

Glow, you said: Another thing nobody wants to talk about is what really bothers them about this case - and it is NOT the underaged pregnancies or we would see that outrage across the board.

What exactly are you referring to (in one sentence, please) when you make that statement?

 

[Ciara]

I think I made it clear what bothers me about this case. I think most of the others posters did too.

 

[Glow]

Wow, Glow. Did you really just say all of this?

Hi Rainbow,

Hey! Question... is it ok for me to say:


Wow back and who made you the thread police?




Or would that be an example of me attacking?

Lets break your thoughts down as to your accuracy...

There are some good and bad things with the system. Unfortunately, when it comes to CPS issues everyone gets hurt.

If that statement is not a very cavalier approach to a serious problem - then it should be equally applicable when it is reversed.

so lets see if it is.....

"There are some good and bad things about the FLDS religion. Unfortunately, when it comes to FLDS issues everyone gets hurt. "

see? When you do that its all "gasp"... and "how awful".... a thing to say!

I feel exactly the same way when you post that "unfortunately everyone gets hurt by CPS."

That is unacceptable. CPS has set itself up as the entity to protect children from abuse. They are the LAST ones who should be guilty of it themselves. People who have the attitude of we must tolerate some "bad" to achieve some "good" need to change that attitude to one of "We expect accountability from you CPS!" The former attitude is one reason this intolerably low level of performance it isn't changing faster.

• I have seen posts from you that seem to support following due process. That is a fair statement
• I have seen posts from you saying that the FLDS were hurt in the "raid". That is a fair statement

• 
  
  and your credentials by which you are the ultimate judge of what is fair and unfair are what exactly?
  
  I have learned on this forum that right before I am about to get told what I am really doing wrong that some posters like to throw me a little complimentary bone so, - bone thrown - bone received, now lets get to what you really want to say to me...
  
  
  

  [*]I have seen too many posts from you attacking those that suspect there are troubles within the FLDS. Those posts are beyond excessive at this point.

  
  With that very one sided (and factually lacking) statement you pretty much blew all your credibility as an objective poster in my eyes. That is really a shame too because I can tell that you are very bright and know how to think and I think this thread - heck this whole forum needs more people like you! I was looking forward to posting with you regardless of which side of this topic you feel you are on. I thought maybe you would be the one to really have a conversation with. Maybe we can still drop the judgement and just post together. I'm willing if you are.
  
  I personally dont feel attacked by posts (even though I can read :crazy On this thread - here is how I look at it - people are just putting out what they feel is their highest and finest that they personally have to offer. Who am I to insist that they reach higher? I have really tried to make a concerted effort to do that not only with each post but also with each poster. There are two exceptions, one would be posts that are repetitive. Even then I will go back and repeat if the poster seems sincere.....or new to the thread.
  
  
  

  Is it really necessary to continue to insult those that are concerned that little girls may be raped or that they are being forced to marry people they don't want to.]

  
  more of the same....see above.....moving on....
  
  

  [*]We have a different point of view.

  
  I see that as a positive thing, good conversations can be had by people who hold differing viewpoints. Lots to learn from people who see things differently.
  
  

  You are convinced there have been no crimes committed by the FLDS.

  
  This is just one more example of the things you are saying in this post that lack accuracy and is in fact, completely false.
  
  
  
  

  The rest of us are not so sure.

  
  Us? I thought this was an open thread on an open forum. You have an "us"?
  
  Would that be in an "us and them" type of way?
  
  As a Freudian slip this statement is very interesting. As a way of entering into an ongoing conversation however, wouldn't you say it seems just a tad bit adversarial? Why do we need to be adversaries while we discuss this case?
  
  

  Those children deserve to have someone looking out for them and watching to make sure they are protected. If we have to fight an uphill battle and build evidence slowly, then that is all that can be done.

  
  THis is a great statement and I agree with you 100%. If that had been done in the first place, before the raid, it would have been wonderful.
  
  
  

  [*]I see the main issue that frustrates everyone as the lack of proof. You can't prove to me that every one is innocent, any more than I can prove that people are guilty. I can however say that things are very suspicious...

I think there is an additional reason why some get frustrated. When anyone of us are put in a situation where we have to take out and dust off our long held and treasured views of things, it makes people tense. Who was it that said that they were convinced that "none of us ever really let go of our prejudices - we merely rearrange them"? I cant remember who that was...no matter, it has a bit of truth in it.

People come here for all sorts of reasons. Some are from Texas. Some like/dislike CPS. Heck some probably just like drama!

The thing is, it all adds to what we call an open discussion. I will look forward to talking with you more in the future, hopefully. I say hopefully, because I have paid you the honor of being very, very blunt and honest with you in this post. That offends most people, I hope it doesnt you.

 

[Pepper]

I think the horse died many posts ago, and there is really nothing more to discuss until there is some real news on the FLDS court cases. No one's mind is going to be changed by more speculative dialog until there is something NEW to be discussed. So until then, you won't be seeing me post on this thread.

 

[Glow]

Bwhahahahahahahah....right again

Hi Rino,

I just got sent this in a PM - seemed applicable...



The Zen of Sarcasm

1. Do not walk behind me, for I may not lead. Do not walk ahead of me, for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me either. Just pretty much leave me alone.

2. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a broken fan belt and leaky tire.

3. It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it.

4. Don't be irreplaceable. If you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted.

5. Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else.

6. Never test the depth of the water with both feet.

7. If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of car payments.

8. Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

9. If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is probably not for you.

10. Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.

11. If you lend someone $20 and never see that person again, it was probably a wise investment.

12. If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.

13. Some days you're the bug; some days you're the windshield.

14. Everyone seems normal until you get to know them.

15. The quickest way to double your money is to fold it in half and put it back in your pocket.

16. A closed mouth gathers no foot.

17. Duct tape is like 'The Force'. It has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together.

18. There are two theories to arguing with women. Neither one works.

19. Generally speaking, you aren't lear ning much when your lips are moving.

20. Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

 

[Glow]

I think the horse died many posts ago, and there is really nothing more to discuss until there is some real news on the FLDS court cases. No one's mind is going to be changed by more speculative dialog until there is something NEW to be discussed. So until then, you won't be seeing me post on this thread.

I am surprised to hear you say that Pepper. I view it from a different angle. What happened in April was an epoch event. The first of its kind. We still dont know all of the "behind the scenes" that went on - but every day more details are coming out.

We do know that the government raided and took 460 people based on a phone call.

We do know they waited over 3 days before going in after the supposedly "desperate" phone call.

We know that there is now dispersion being cast on the Supreme Court Justice who dissented from the majority's decision.

We know that the head of CPS has stepped down

We know a grand jury is going to reconvene in less than 2 weeks and we have no idea what indictments if any will be handed down OR on what grounds.

We know that even while we sit here discussing this case that lawyers are gearing up to fight the most massive Constitutional case that we have seen thus far in our life time. It appears that the FLDS have strong proof that Amendments I and IV were violated at the very least. And this case will probably be richoting thru the halls of colleges and universities for years to come.

MOST importantly we are seeing the fate of children decided. If they are going to be abused - who should the abuser be? Should it be their family or should it be a government entity?

Big questions. Lots of issues at stake.

I shake my head that anyone could think this case is dead. This is the lull before the storm hits.

 

[SewingDeb]

Glow, I don't think that's the horse Pepper is referring to in her post.

 

[Glow]

You may be right. It might be another innuendo, they seem to abound on this thread. I chose to take her at face value and view her post as factual. I could very well be wrong.

 

[Glow]

What is Texas CPS up to?

Texas Child Protective Services is conducting interviews with FLDS mothers and some attorneys say their clients are being told the questioning is a prelude to closing out some cases. And perhaps zeroing in on others.

What do investigators want to know? They are asking, of course, about specific allegations in each case -- broken bones, for instance.

They also are going through this uniform list of questions:

1. Who is currently living in your house? (names and ages)

2. Who lived in your building/house at the ranch? (names and ages)

3. How do you discipline your children?

4. How old to you think a child needs to be care for a younger child? Do other children in the family have responsibility for potty training or discipline?

5. What adjustment issues have you experienced since your children have been home? Have there been any specific behavior problems that have been difficult to deal with? How have you dealt with these?

6. What is your position on underage marriage? Do you think it is appropriate?


http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2008/07/what-is-texas-cps-up-to.htm

 

[Glow]

Note - Mary Batchelor and Heidi Foster are NOT FLDS members.


Mary Batchelor & Heidi Foster Visit YFZ Ranch

Hi everyone, we had a great visit to the YFZ Ranch. I, for one, was very impressed. I will be sharing some feelings about the experience soon. One thing I did notice, as Amanda Chisolm says in the article I posted below, these FLDS families are not zombies or drones or without personality. We were welcomed with smiles and hugs. Their personalities were not smothered, some exhibit a great deal of spunk, some have hearty senses of humor. One thing we saw everywhere we went: grace and genuine kindness. These people are genuine.

I’ll be blogging more about it later. I will say this: it is a very different experience to meet these people in person, and see the ranch in person…and hear directly from them what they went through, and what they think.

http://principlevoices.org/

 

[Rino]

I still got to be honest Glow. Their being genuine is debateable.

 

[LinasK]

Yes. I get the apples and oranges thing a lot. Usually when people cannot logically refute what I have just said.

I am not saying that about you Pepper :blowkiss:that statement is meant to express that I hear that a lot and why it is that I hear it. In my own opinion.

As far as starting a thread about teen pregnancy I think it would get a few indignant posts and then sink into a generalized lethargy that we see mirrored in real life.

If you want to start a thread that will draw out all kinds of bigotry and narrow minded prejudices people didn't even know they had, then start a thread about a weird little group of people that no one relates to and that has a problem that mainstream society has as well and insist that these people deserve the same rights and dignity that we allow for ourselves.

Do that? Then you will have a thread that people will reply to. Of course the reply's will consist of personal attacks, posters reminiscing of past wrongs from their own personal past, and lots of superlatives.

Nobody wants to talk about administering justice with an even hand. Nobody wants to talk about other groups that have the same issues.

Another thing nobody wants to talk about is what really bothers them about this case - and it is NOT the underaged pregnancies or we would see that outrage across the board.

Wrong Glow! It's not illogical. It's not even the same discussion, we are outraged by teen pregnancies. The difference is that they made the choice, they were not forced to have children by the FLDS. The FLDS girls are victims of rape and incest! Their choice was taken away from them, they weren't given the choice to mature before breeding with old men in pre-arranged forced marriages. That's why our outrage is greater than with just normal teen pregnancies. I do believe 18 and 19 year-olds are still too young to be mothers, even 20-year-olds don't often make good mothers because they lack sense and usually an education.