The Rest of the Story...

[Ciara]

I am fairly new to posting on this board Glow and even Websleuths itself, however, I have followed this case from the beginning and had followed this thread too. I have read online about Polygamy and FLDS and Mormons and the Amish and similar groups for a long long time. I find it all very interesting.
There is actually a guy although I cannnot recall his name who has a forum about the Amish, he is ex amish and he uses it to reveal stories about life within the Amish including the abuses etc.
I do enjoy reading all the stuff you post too Glow even though I may not always agree with your views on the subject. You are far more articulate with what you want to say about it than I am. I just like sticking my two cents in:crazy::crazy::crazy:

 

[Ciara]

Cut through all of Glow's smoke and mirrors, all the deception, distraction, and the sleight of hand, and we are left with the pure hatred of women which spits forth in terms such as 'the feminist Kool-aid'.

Glow knows that there are several of us on these threads who have been violently raped when we were children. His only response has been to repeatedly mock and heap insults upon what we have endured. Those of us who have survived such brutality have emerged with a profound empathy for other child victims, and a deep, abiding disgust for those who trivalize the trauma that anyone who has been sexually assaulted experiences.

He doesn't like it when we use the word PEDOPHILE? That figures.:sick:

I thought Glow was female
I'm sorry about what happened to you Truly. That also happened to my mother in front of my brother so I understand the rage for that, and because of other experiences I am truly passionate about Child abuse:blowkiss:

 

[SewingDeb]

Ok everybody. Has Glow convinced you that there were no underage marriages or pregnancies on the compound and that there was no need for CPS to intervene?

Has Glow convinced you that because a young girl's body changes at puberty she is emotionally and physically ready to marry and give birth?

Has Glow convinced you that the FLDS live just like we all did 100 years ago? What about forced marriages? Did that happen 100 years ago? Did reassigning wives and children to different men happen 100 years ago in this country?

Should we step aside and let FLDS continue these practices? If not, what is the best way to handle this legally?

Should a religion be allowed to break the laws of the land?

 

[Native New Yorker]

Glow has convinced me of absolutely nothing, except to avoid this topic .....

 

[Ciara]

Ok everybody. Has Glow convinced you that there were no underage marriages or pregnancies on the compound and that there was no need for CPS to intervene? No

Has Glow convinced you that because a young girl's body changes at puberty she is emotionally and physically ready to marry and give birth? No

Has Glow convinced you that the FLDS live just like we all did 100 years ago? What about forced marriages? Did that happen 100 years ago? Did reassigning wives and children to different men happen 100 years ago in this country?No

Should we step aside and let FLDS continue these practices? If not, what is the best way to handle this legally? I just dont know the answer to this one

Should a religion be allowed to break the laws of the land?

No

This whole subject is so complicated all round.

 

[Ciara]

hmmm...first time I ever tried to do that with the coloured writing and I didnt do a very good job of it lol

 

[SewingDeb]

You did fine Ciara. My answers to my own questions are the same as yours. For all the posting, I'm not sure Glow changed many opinions.

 

[Pepper]

I am fairly new to posting on this board Glow and even Websleuths itself, however, I have followed this case from the beginning and had followed this thread too. I have read online about Polygamy and FLDS and Mormons and the Amish and similar groups for a long long time. I find it all very interesting.
There is actually a guy although I cannnot recall his name who has a forum about the Amish, he is ex amish and he uses it to reveal stories about life within the Amish including the abuses etc.
I do enjoy reading all the stuff you post too Glow even though I may not always agree with your views on the subject. You are far more articulate with what you want to say about it than I am. I just like sticking my two cents in:crazy::crazy::crazy:

David Yoder, "Amish Deception." The site is www.amishabuse.com

 

[SewingDeb]

Pepper, I just went to your Amish link and found this petition. If you substitute FLDS for Amish it is very fitting:

Amish Children's Equal Rights Petition
We the people are demanding that all Amish children should be given an equal opportunity to have the same rights as all non-Amish children in the United States .

*Amish children should be given the same protection by social services that any non-Amish child has in the United States.

*Amish children should be given the same equal opportunity to the best education as all other non-Amish children are given here in the United States.

*Amish children should have an Equal Protection rights of child labor laws same as all non-Amish children do.

 

[Ciara]

David Yoder, "Amish Deception." The site is www.amishabuse.com

Pepper Thankyou!!!! Thats the site! I wouldnt mind but I have it bookmarked so dont know why I didnt just check it:doh:
I have read most of the threads on that site too.

I also read the Sisterwives site which has some interesting stuff although its pro-polygamy based.

Thanks Pepper:blowkiss:

 

[Ciara]

Pepper, I just went to your Amish link and found this petition. If you substitute FLDS for Amish it is very fitting:

Amish Children's Equal Rights Petition
We the people are demanding that all Amish children should be given an equal opportunity to have the same rights as all non-Amish children in the United States .

*Amish children should be given the same protection by social services that any non-Amish child has in the United States.

*Amish children should be given the same equal opportunity to the best education as all other non-Amish children are given here in the United States.

*Amish children should have an Equal Protection rights of child labor laws same as all non-Amish children do.

I have to say I agree with you Deb and with this petition. Its amazing when you read those sites, how much leeway these people are often allowed compared to people not in groups like them when it comes to crimes and stuff.

 

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

I have read the Amish deception site. I believe that decentors from any group (religious, jobs, social groups) etc have stories to tell. Some are worse than others. I think that it would be amazing to find any group free of the abuse. I am sure it happens within the amish community, and perhaps is overlooked as not being a big deal. We see that problem all over the world.

I am not going to blame a group of people for someone elses abuse unless:

• The group empowers the abuse by supporting it or saying it isn't a big deal
• The abuse is organized by the group or leadership
• The group tries to protect abusers instead of making it clear the abuse is unacceptable.

I think the Amish are guilty of the first and 3rd billet. I cannot support that and think that the guilty people should be punished. Still, I do not find that as repulsive as the abuse being organized by a the group or leadership. Don't get me started on how I feel about organized sex rings or worse, organized child sex rings...

 

[Ciara]

I totally agree with your above post Rainbow:clap:

 

[Rino]

If you are referring to the women of FLDS, in what way do you feel they are not genuine?

Yes. Simple as I can put it they are not living in a world that provides them choices. You can beat a puppy and he will still love you. You can tell a baby he is the ugliest and most rotten kid with a smile and he will respond with love, wanting to please. These woman live in ignorance,imo. While ignorance is bliss I don't believe it is genuine.

And, yes, now I get it! I knew there had to be a reason for the "what is reality"? types of posts......

I wish that this forum had an option that is on another forum I post on...you can just press a button that says " Ignore this poster's posts" and voila, they do not appear on your screen. It is just wonderful for hijacked threads, and then the real discussion can go on.

It does.

Though being rude seems your preference .

 

[Ciara]

Yes. Simple as I can put it they are not living in a world that provides them choices. You can beat a puppy and he will still love you. You can tell a baby he is the ugliest and most rotten kid with a smile and he will respond with love, wanting to please. These woman live in ignorance,imo. While ignorance is bliss I don't believe it is genuine.

I have to say I totally agree with you here too Rino. These women know no better and thats the bottom line.

 

[Pepper]

Pepper, I just went to your Amish link and found this petition. If you substitute FLDS for Amish it is very fitting:

Amish Children's Equal Rights Petition
We the people are demanding that all Amish children should be given an equal opportunity to have the same rights as all non-Amish children in the United States .

*Amish children should be given the same protection by social services that any non-Amish child has in the United States.

*Amish children should be given the same equal opportunity to the best education as all other non-Amish children are given here in the United States.

*Amish children should have an Equal Protection rights of child labor laws same as all non-Amish children do.

Thank you Deb. You are so right! My outrage isn't just directed at the FLDS, but I am outraged at ANY religion that stifles and abuses children in the name of "RELIGION."

Pepper Thankyou!!!! Thats the site! I wouldnt mind but I have it bookmarked so dont know why I didnt just check it:doh:
I have read most of the threads on that site too.

I also read the Sisterwives site which has some interesting stuff although its pro-polygamy based.

Thanks Pepper:blowkiss:

Ciara (BTW welcome to WS!) I respect you for your ability and interest in self education by seeking out and reading both sides of this religion (and others), unlike the poster here who REFUSES to read the books and websites to become educated to the perspective and experiences of those who have escaped.

 

[SewingDeb]

You're welcome Pepper. I feel the same way about any group who misuses children in the name of religion.

 

[Ciara]

Thank you Deb. You are so right! My outrage isn't just directed at the FLDS, but I am outraged at ANY religion that stifles and abuses children in the name of "RELIGION."



Ciara (BTW welcome to WS!) I respect you for your ability and interest in self education by seeking out and reading both sides of this religion (and others), unlike the poster here who REFUSES to read the books and websites to become educated to the perspective and experiences of those who have escaped.

Thanks Pepper. I read A LOT lol. I cant always articulate everything as well as I'd like to when I write but I am a good reader and I like to read as much as I can from all sides about ANY subject I am interested in. I find all these non mainstream religions quite fascinating and disturbing at the same time. They seem to be able to skirt round a lot of questionable things under the guise of Religious Freedom and often the authorities are reluctant to do the right thing because of that. Crimes in their communities should be treated exactly the same way as they are outside of them but in all my reading, I have often found that not to be the case.

 

[Glow]

Ok everybody.

First of all I dont understand the "everybody" stuff.....so far I have seen the term "us" and "everybody" used only by two people.....
anyhow, I just really dont care for the pack mentality or for thinking as a "group" so I am probably not ever going to get the whole "us" and "everybody" thing.

I do think it is interesting that when the raid first happened the public polls supported the raid and now the public majority disapproves of it.

Has Glow convinced you that there were no underage marriages or pregnancies on the compound and that there was no need for CPS to intervene?

I hope I havent convinced anybody of there being no need for CPS to "intervene" - since I never said that.

Has Glow convinced you that because a young girl's body changes at puberty she is emotionally and physically ready to marry and give birth?

Never said this either.

Has Glow convinced you that the FLDS live just like we all did 100 years ago? What about forced marriages? Did that happen 100 years ago? Did reassigning wives and children to different men happen 100 years ago in this country?

As to the reassigning of the wives and children I dont know enough about why they do it to condemn it. On the surface, it sounds like Warren Jeff's has been using this as a power tool. I wonder though, if the practice was in place before him and if so, why.

I know the FLDS try (in their opinion) to follow the Bible and the Book of Mormon. In the Bible there was an arrangement in the nation of Israel for brother - in -law marriage. If a man died, his brother or other close male relative would take the widow and children into his own family thereby preserving the dead mans name by providing offspring. This accomplished two things, it provided financial security and protection for the widow and children and it kept the names of the various tribal lines names going down into future generations.

As for multiple wives that comes from the same portion of scripture and a man was only allowed to have as many as he could support. So when a man had many wives, that was saying something about him socially. Today men can by impressive cars and a Rolex and it can all be on a credit card and a woman might not know back then, a man had to earn his way and only then was the "status" symbol afforded to him.

So it would be easy to see how Jeff's saw a way to manipulate this whole arrangement to "reward" some men and "penalize" others. That is of course corrupt and happens all the time, especially in religion and politics.

In America right now over half of all marriages end in divorce. Many of those marriages produced children. Most of those men and women will remarry between one and three more times. We euphemistically call this a "blended family", but it is similar in function to the reassigning, we just dont see it that way because its got that really fun word "choice" plastered over it.

I think that in 500 years when anthropologists study our current culture, they will find the practice of how we assigned and reassigned our mates and children to be peculiar also.

Should we step aside and let FLDS continue these practices? If not, what is the best way to handle this legally?

This is a really great question and I wish you, or someone like you, had asked it before the travesty of that raid occurred.

Should a religion be allowed to break the laws of the land?

It will be interesting to see what responses you get to this since some of the best minds of history have wrestled with the same question. My personal thought is that whatever a person decides is going to reign supreme, that IS their God. That's what being supreme means.

 

[Glow]

I am fairly new to posting on this board Glow and even Websleuths itself, however, I have followed this case from the beginning and had followed this thread too. I have read online about Polygamy and FLDS and Mormons and the Amish and similar groups for a long long time. I find it all very interesting.
There is actually a guy although I cannnot recall his name who has a forum about the Amish, he is ex amish and he uses it to reveal stories about life within the Amish including the abuses etc.
I do enjoy reading all the stuff you post too Glow even though I may not always agree with your views on the subject. You are far more articulate with what you want to say about it than I am. I just like sticking my two cents in:crazy::crazy::crazy:

I think you are very articulate and more importantly, you know how to post with intelligence and kindness...............hmm..........maybe thats why you seem so articulate?

I thought Glow was female
I'm sorry about what happened to you Truly. That also happened to my mother in front of my brother so I understand the rage for that, and because of other experiences I am truly passionate about Child abuse:blowkiss:

I am "female" and everyone here knows that. That was all asked and answered back in April here on the threads. Its being brought up again to stir the pot or muddy the water, whichever saying you prefer.

I find all these non mainstream religions quite fascinating and disturbing at the same time. They seem to be able to skirt round a lot of questionable things under the guise of Religious Freedom and often the authorities are reluctant to do the right thing because of that. Crimes in their communities should be treated exactly the same way as they are outside of them but in all my reading, I have often found that not to be the case.

I agree with you on this 100%. Excellent post.