The Rest of the Story...

[Ciara]

Glow, did you vote on Rainbow's poll?
I would like to see your reply in that thread

 

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

There was a recent thread about a woman that died after having a baby at home and not getting medical help. She is an adult and had the choice. I can't argue with that. However, when it is a child, I have a hard time with that as well.

Someone on that thread pointed out that you can betray your beliefs and live your whole life knowing that, and feeling you are not worthy anymore to be with God or you can die knowing that you were faithful to the end. That is a tough call.

 

[Glow]

I am glad you put up these examples.

The third example...the Medical one is an issue to me.
Are the Jehovah's breaking the law by refusing in that case in America or is that covered by Religious Freedom?

I find this one hard to get my head around as refusing a blood transfusion is to let someone die.....I am for saving life where possible so I find it hard to accept this as being part of anyone's Religion and would want the Government to step in.

I think there are some things that just cannot be accepted under the guise of Religion anotherwords.

Its a fascinating complex subject!!

It is fascinating and complex!


Basically I think we all have principles that we are willing to die for. A lot of folks are dying over in Iraq for just that thing right now.

I personally dont judge anyone for their religion. I am not a fan of religion in general but the people within the various religions all seem to me to be trying to live by something, I find that deserving of respect. Each and every time I have heard that a certain religion does this or that.......and it appeared nonsensical to me, I found that if I would take the time to learn why, it would make sense. So my shock or horror at what I thought about their belief was really just a sign of my own ignorance or pre assigned prejudice, what have you.

That doesnt mean that I approve of everything I learned, it just means I understood where others were coming from in their thinking.

 

[Glow]

Glow, did you vote on Rainbow's poll?
I would like to see your reply in that thread

No I didnt! I was off reading about the Supreme Court for Rainbow! :crazy:

I will go read and vote now! :woohoo:

 

[Rino]

There was a recent thread about a woman that died after having a baby at home and not getting medical help. She is an adult and had the choice. I can't argue with that. However, when it is a child, I have a hard time with that as well.

Someone on that thread pointed out that you can betray your beliefs and live your whole life knowing that, and feeling you are not worthy anymore to be with God or you can die knowing that you were faithful to the end. That is a tough call.

I don't on the level that my religious beliefs are not to be trampled on or pushed upon another

Being Christian I would allow myself and my child to die before I denounce Christ as my savior. Not allowing transfusions is the same to them, going to heaven rather than living without God on earth is deep and personal.

 

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

I was off reading about the Supreme Court for Rainbow! :crazy:

Cool! I can't wait to read what you find. I only flunked one class in college and that was a law case where we had to find cases on specific cases. I could never find relevant cases. I tried to get help, but people just said to go to the database and use it... With that said, I'm interested in what you find.

 

[Ciara]

. Each and every time I have heard that a certain religion does this or that.......and it appeared nonsensical to me, I found that if I would take the time to learn why, it would make sense. So my shock or horror at what I thought about their belief was really just a sign of my own ignorance or pre assigned prejudice, what have you.

That doesnt mean that I approve of everything I learned, it just means I understood where others were coming from in their thinking.

I snipped your post down to this bit Glow so I can comment on it
For me, there are some things in other's Religion that even though I have read ad nauseum about, I will never understand, accept or respect......honour killings being one example.
I know WHY they do it but I do not think its acceptable under the umbrella of a Religion.

 

[Ciara]

Glow, did you vote on Rainbow's poll?
I would like to see your reply in that thread

Rainbow has two polls....I am talking about the longer poll not the Polygamy one although you can choose to vote on that one too if you like

 

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

I simply am expressing my frustration that this case discussion has been dominated by one poster, leaving me unwilling to join the fray. The discussions have really become philosophical hair-splitting, hence my "what is reality " comment.

New Yorker, I agree with you completely and feel the same way. I guess that is part of why I posted a bunch of new threads the past few days. I want to get to the root of the problem. What is the reality? I am not FLDS so I really don't know. But i have my opinion (see the poll). It is hard to know what to do about the problem when we don't know what the problem is,or if it even exists? Or what all of the problems are anyway.

Feel free to join us on another thread and add your thoughts and insights. I'll try not to split hairs with you too much.

 

[Native New Yorker]

Thanks Rainbow, I will look for the other thread now....

but before I go, and this is the kind of thing that drives me nuts, Glow, Hitler persecuted, no sought to ERASE the Jews, not for their religious beliefs, but as a RACE of people whom he felt should be destroyed.
Read his book, Mein Kampf, where he clearly delineates that the Jews were
( according to him) Untermenschen ( or sub human) Along with the Jews, he also viewed most Eastern Europeans, gypsies, handicapped people as Untermenschen,......

So, please take the Jews off of your list of people persecuted for their religion!
The Jews held enormous economic power in Post World War One Germany, and that caused a great amount of resentment, which Hitler, once elected, was able to take advantage of...as Germany was in a depression, had lost all world power, etc.
nothing to do with their religious beliefs, as he insisted they were a RACE.

 

[Glow]

Thanks Rainbow, I will look for the other thread now....

but before I go, and this is the kind of thing that drives me nuts, Glow, Hitler persecuted, no sought to ERASE the Jews, not for their religious beliefs, but as a RACE of people whom he felt should be destroyed.
Read his book, Mein Kampf, where he clearly delineates that the Jews were
( according to him) Untermenschen ( or sub human) Along with the Jews, he also viewed most Eastern Europeans, gypsies, handicapped people as Untermenschen,......

So, please take the Jews off of your list of people persecuted for their religion!
The Jews held enormous economic power in Post World War One Germany, and that caused a great amount of resentment, which Hitler, once elected, was able to take advantage of...as Germany was in a depression, had lost all world power, etc.
nothing to do with their religious beliefs, as he insisted they were a RACE.

Ok New Yorker you are exactly right about the Jews being there because of their race. My apologies. So how about I take the Jews off of that list and add the Jehovah's Witnesses instead?

They were forced into the concentration camps and were offered release if they would denounce their religion. Most of them didn't and either died or were released by the Allied Forces later. Have you ever been to the Holocaust Museum? There is a section there about this.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005433

The Nazi regime targeted Jehovah's Witnesses for persecution because they refused, out of religious conviction, to swear loyalty to a worldly government or to serve in its armed forces. Jehovah's Witnesses also engaged in missionary activity to win adherents for the faith. The Nazis perceived the refusal to commit to the state and efforts to proselytize as overtly political and subversive acts.

 

[Native New Yorker]

Yes, You are very correct about the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I had forgotten about them.....

 

[Ciara]

Yes, You are very correct about the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I had forgotten about them.....

I hope you join in the other threads too Native

 

[SewingDeb]

Glow, I have been married twice (15 years each time) and have children from both marriages. Thankfully the authorities did not choose my second husband for me and send me and my children to go live with him and say that my first husband was no longer the father of my children. That's the huge difference between mainstream society and the FLDS. Again, it's CHOICE.

 

[SewingDeb]

Glow, you said:

First of all I dont understand the "everybody" stuff.....so far I have seen the term "us" and "everybody" used only by two people.....
anyhow, I just really dont care for the pack mentality or for thinking as a "group" so I am probably not ever going to get the whole "us" and "everybody" thing.

Everybody is inclusive not exclusive. Have you convinced yourself of these things while you have been reading and posting? You were not left out.

 

[SewingDeb]

Glow,

Originally Posted by SewingDeb
Should a religion be allowed to break the laws of the land?

Glow said: It will be interesting to see what responses you get to this since some of the best minds of history have wrestled with the same question. My personal thought is that whatever a person decides is going to reign supreme, that IS their God. That's what being supreme means.

----

If someone chooses to follow their religious beliefs over the laws of the land they should gladly serve time as a martyr to whatever god they follow. That's my belief. It should not exempt them from whatever punishment is fitting for their crime.

 

[Glow]

Glow, I have been married twice (15 years each time) and have children from both marriages. Thankfully the authorities did not choose my second husband for me and send me and my children to go live with him and say that my first husband was no longer the father of my children. That's the huge difference between mainstream society and the FLDS. Again, it's CHOICE.

Choice sounds so idyllic that it almost seems like there couldnt possibly be any negatives to it and yet there are.


We think we choose in mainstream America. Right now, American bedrooms and living rooms are full of little girls having reality defined for them by Hannah Montana and "A High School Musical" which could be viewed as a highly enjoyable and entertaining form of brainwashing.

Probably for the most part as we get older ,we get more conscious of what drives us and motivates us. One thing that is very interesting is the whole idea of chouice and especially how it relates to marriage.

As far as choice goes rather than make us happier, it works in reverse-
quote-
David G. Myers of
Hope College and Robert E.
Lane of Yale University—reveal
that increased choice and
increased affluence have, in
fact, been accompanied by
decreased well-being in the
U.S. and most other affluent societies. As the gross domestic product
more than doubled in the past 30 years, the proportion of the
population describing itself as “very happy” declined by about 5
percent, or by some 14 million people. In addition, more of us than
ever are clinically depressed. Of course, no one believes that a single
factor explains decreased well-being, but a number of findings
indicate that the explosion of choice plays an important role.
Thus, it seems that as society grows wealthier and people become
freer to do whatever they want, they get less happy


***So what are some ways to increase the chance of happiness?

return to quote-
The happiest people surround themselves with family and friends, don't care about keeping up with the Joneses next door, lose themselves in daily activities and, most important, forgive easily.

A life of many activities in flow is likely to be a life of great satisfaction.

**** a higher education is not necessarily related

return to quote
"One of the happiest men I ever met was a 64-year-old Chicago welder with a fourth-grade education"

Gratitude has a lot to do with life satisfaction, psychologists say. Other researchers have found that learning to savor even small pleasures has the same effect. And forgiveness is the trait most strongly linked to happiness, says University of Michigan psychologist Christopher Peterson.
"It's the queen of all virtues, and probably the hardest to come by," he adds.
'More fun, less stuff'


http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2002-12-08-happy-main_x.htm


As far as marriage goes this is a very long study that basically says that the more conventional and traditional a marriage is the greater its chance at happiness -


quote
"Modernist assumptions about marriage continue to unravel, a major research project came to some "surprising" findings, namely that women are happier in traditional, gender-based marriages rather than the "egalitarian" (non-gendered) partnerships which they have been encouraged to embrace.

Historically, marriages were held together by a social network of community, family and religious ties.

Those ties have loosened in the industrialised world in the last few centuries, and they got really loose in the 20th century. With the rise of the romantic novel in the late 18th century and the increase in literacy in the 19th, love came to be seen as more and more important in marriage and in quasi-marriage (boyfriend-girlfriend relationships).

Love is now the reason why people enter into marriages/quasi-marriages and—as those above-mentioned social ties have loosened—love is expected to be the tie that will keep such relationships together.

The problem is that love (being just an emotion) is ephemeral—here today, gone tomorrow—and therefore a very weak tie and a weak guarantee of happiness. Also, we’ve grown up in a media-saturated culture where the dominant story being constantly broadcast at us is one of idealised eternal-love, and that’s had an effect on what we expect in those marriages/quasi-marriages.

And when neither person can live up to those expectations, tension and fighting are inevitable. Some couples accommodate themselves to lowered expectations better than others, but I doubt that what happens in most marriages/quasi-marriages lives up to what the couple had hoped would happen when they first fell in love.

a growing number of Americans, influenced by the cultural logic
of “expressive individualism” (Bellah, Madsen, Sullivan, Swidler and Tipton 1985), act as selfinterested
agents who bargain over their marital roles and interests in an effort to maximize
their personal fulfillment (Bumpass 1990; Cherlin 2000), other Americans conceptualize their
marriages along more institutional lines (Wilcox 2004). These Americans see marriage as a
sacred institution in the Durkheimian sense that the relationship is accorded extraordinary
value. Hence, the marital relationship is supposed to trump the individual interests of partners,
calling forth virtues such as fidelity, sacrifice and mutual support (Bahr and Bahr 2001). In this
setting, exchanges between marital partners are often conducted according to an “enchanted”
cultural logic of gift exchange where spouses give one another gifts that vary in value, may or
may not be reciprocated, and often have some kind of symbolic value above and beyond their
immediate instrumental value (Bourdieu 1990: 126; Bahr and Bahr 2001; Wilcox 2004).
Women who are deeply committed to the institution of marriage, and who identify with this
enchanted view of marriage, are probably less likely than more individualistic women to keep
an ongoing account of how the relationship is or is not serving their own interests. This
willingness to avoid looking at the marriage in a self-interested fashion is probably associated
with fewer critical evaluations of the marital relationship. This should lead to higher levels of
marital quality for women

http://www.virginia.edu/sociology/peopleofsociology/wilcoxpapers/Wilcox Nock marriage.pdf

 

[Ciara]

That was interesting Glow.
For me personally its this simple>>>I blame liberalism, the "anything goes" mentality for the breakdown in our society. I blame it for all the teenage pregnancies, the breaking down of marriages, the rise in crime and everything else.
Simplistic opinion but its my opinion only

 

[Montana]

Native New Yorker

Ignore is under User CP, at the top of the screen.

Regards,

Montana

 

[Glow]

July 8, 2008, 7:20PM
Polygamous sect spokesman seeks restraining order


In court papers filed Tuesday in St. George's 5th District Court, Willie Jessop wants investigator Sam Brower to keep at least 500 feet from Jessop's homes and business offices in Hildale and Cedar City, Utah, and in San Angelo, Texas.

Brower is a private investigator who has worked with lawyers involved in civil and criminal cases filed against the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints over the past four years.

In court papers, Jessop claims Brower has twice trespassed on his properties — at least once with a television news crew in tow — frightening Jessop's children and harassing employees of his excavating business.

Jessop claims Brower's actions have become increasingly aggressive and represent a pattern of harassment, according to court papers.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/5877935.html