The Rest of the Story...

[Glow]

Im sorry Pepper I didnt mean to ignore part of your post. I try to only ignore rudeness OR redundancy and yours was neither.

My apologies.

Their whole "religion" is based around child abuse, and that is what is so wrong. I don't care that they wear prairie dresses or have long hair or ban the color red. I do care that the children are the victims of brain washing and mind control to the point that they have no choices.

If you want to know what any religion believes you refer to their Articles of Faith. Every religion has this. That will tell you what their religion is based on-

Articles of Faith
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535-541
1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3. We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul--We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith.

****


The girls marrying underage, is a concern that has reached a new level under the maniacal leadership of Warren Jeffs. Hopefully between his imprisonment and all the publicity brought about by the raid, we will see this end.

Frankly I think you are being condescending and insulting to even hint that those of us on the children's side of this issue would feel the way you describe..

Arent we all on the childrens side?

I'm beginning to think you have a personal vendetta against the CPS as if they were agents of the devil! As I've said before, I have no personal reason to judge the CPS one way or another, especially the Texas people..

I have no vendetta against anything except the abuse of children and their civil rights. When that happens I am going to speak up. I understand you feel you have no personal reason to judge the Texas CPS. I feel I do. They have one of the worst track records of any state. When they snatch an additional 460 children into a system that is already under investigation for its own abuse - I am going to judge that.

I do know that here in California children DIE way too often at the hands of their parents because the CA CPS does not act quickly enough to protect the children and they are often returned to abusive parents prematurely.

I know what you mean. We have the same situation here in Fla. which is another state with a bad rap as far as CPS. However, we cannot let the fact that tragedy happens, cause CPS to go to such a hyper alert level that they cause tragedy TO happen. That is my whole point.

I think you are way underestimating the degree of mind control that has gone on within the walls of the FLDS. Children and mothers have been "reassigned" to other families when the father head has been found to be "unworthy." Glow, you keep trying to paint these people with your value system, and that just doesn't work. Mothers are kept from bonding with the children they bore. I firmly believe that if the father decides to kill one of his children because of some egregious error, the mother would accept that decision with very little or any protest. These people are trained to become robots.

CPS made claims that the children didnt know who their parents were.Yet when the Supreme Court ruled that parents were to be given their children back once proof of parenthood was established, the children were reunited within hours. If there was ONE child that CPS could have claimed as "unidentifiable" as to parentage they would have. There wasnt one.

 

[Glow]

Glow, how would you propose enlightenment for these people?

Well they already had their backs up after the raid at Short Creek so I definitely wouldn't have gone in with the same appearance!

I would have also accepted the drivers licenses and other documents I was offered as to proof of age instead of refusing them. That would have lowered the amount of women and children that needed to be displaced.

IF anyone HAD to be displaced - I would have treated them with the same kindness that the FLDS say they received from the mental health workers and the Dr's and the volunteers. They are telling us how they were treated and they are not coloring all of the outside world with one color. The FLDS have been very clear as to the many acts of kindness that was shown to them during what was a difficult situation all the way around. They have been equally clear as to who was rude and treated them with less then they are entitled to morally and legally and constitutionally. That was CPS.

Once I had gained entry and had some sort of sifting and sorting program going as to who was who, I would have sat down with the leadership and tried to work on finding some common ground. I would have tried to build trust by demonstrating respect for the positives that they have in place.

Basically it will all have to begin from a place of respect and education. That is how it is going to have to be approached now anyway. Its just to bad it couldnt have gone that way in the first place.

This isnt just an "American" problem The WHO has been fighting genital mutilation of women for years. They have had some success. I would look at their success as a blueprint for what DOES work. Notice that guns, bullying, middle of the night interrogation and the taking of children are NOT listed as being effective.

quote-
there are cases where attempts at ending FGC have been successful. One example is in Senegal, where initiative was taken by native women working at the local level in connection with the Tostan Project. Since 1997, 1,271 villages (600,000 people), some 12% of the practicing population in Senegal, have voluntarily given up FGC and are also working to end early and forced marriage. This has come about through the voluntary efforts of locals carrying the message out to other villages within their marriage networks in a self-replicating process. By 2003, 563 villages had participated in public declarations, and the number continues to rise. By then, at least 23 villages in Burkina Faso had also held such community wide ceremonies, marking "the first public declaration to end FGC outside of Senegal and showing the replicability of the Tostan program for large-scale abandonment of this practice". Molly Melching of TOSTAN believes that in Senegal the practice of female genital mutilation could be ended within 2–5 years. She credits education, instead of cultural imperialism, for the rapid and significant changes which have occurred in Senegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

 

[Truly]

Im sorry Pepper I didnt mean to ignore part of your post. I try to only ignore rudeness OR redundancy and yours was neither.

Here are the key phrases from Pepper's excellent post which you have refused to discuss: 'child abuse'...'no choices'.
Care to take one more stab at it?

As far as rudeness is concerned, you are outstanding in a league all your own. No matter. Life is too beautiful to spend any of my time or energy worrying about it. All of my concern is for the victims of the abuse. The abusers and their defenders do not deserve any of my time or attention.

 

[Truly]

Well they already had their backs up after the raid at Short Creek so I definitely wouldn't have gone in with the same appearance!
Short Creek was 50 years ago. If the FLDS were going to change their behavior on their own, they have had plenty of time to do so.

Once I had gained entry and had some sort of sifting and sorting program going as to who was who, I would have sat down with the leadership and tried to work on finding some common ground. I would have tried to build trust by demonstrating respect for the positives that they have in place.

This is the approach that the police used to take when responding to domestic violence or reports of child abuse. The male officer would take the man aside and buddy-buddy laugh it off, while telling the woman to obey the abuser. That approach was a dismal failure. The woman and children were forced to remain in the home with the abuser and suffer his further beatings, knowing that if she called the police, she would be in even more danger. Hence, the current approach of removing the victims from the abuser was established.

Basically it will all have to begin from a place of respect and education.

It starts inside. Respecting the women and educating the children would certainly be a start for the FLDS.

(My comments are in red.)

 

[Glow]

I have posted many, many times that I oppose anyone having sex with a minor. I don't condone that.

I don't think children should be dumped by the side of the road.

Anyone guilty of either of those acts should be prosecuted. Absolutely.

But, yes, there does need to be evidence those crimes were committed.

I think it possible to oppose having sex with or dumping children and also to support everyone's right to due process.

IMO

I agree with you Jolynna. I think everyone agrees with the things you have outlined above.

One of the things I havent felt I could give an opinion on is the "lost boys" I am still reading the various statements on that and trying to discern where the truth lies.

 

[SewingDeb]

Glow, you don't believe the lost boys stories?

 

[Glow]

Glow, you don't believe the lost boys stories?

I think based on simple math - polygamy creates a problem for itself.

The basic structure of polygamy is going to cause an imbalance. Just doing the math shows that. If you have a (roughly) 50/50 split of boy babies to girl babies and the females are later clustered in 3 to 1 ratios or greater with the males, what happens to the "extra" males?

The FLDS practice polygamy because mistaken or not they view it as a spiritual injunction. The problem is that in ancient (biblical) times polygamy would work because the young men comprised the fighting army and there would have at times been an actual shortage of young men. To keep the "tribe" growing at a fast clip, polygamy would have been a very practical answer. There wouldn't be any widows, all children would have a father, the number of children born each year would hold steady and so on.

But in the FLDS world of today, the young men aren't going in to battle. If they were set free to find wives and bring them back that would be one way of handling the problem - but they are not supposed to marry outsiders. There appears to be a dilemma.

Also, when you look at the CPS official count, there was a striking difference between the numbers of teen aged boys taken into custody VS teen aged girls. Among the young children the numbers are more consistent. So why the difference with the older kids? Was it because CPS's primary concern was under aged pregnant girls and so boys that appeared older were left on the ranch? Or is because of the "lost boys" factor?

I really dont know...SO much of what goes on around this case is political that it can be hard to find that one clear line of truth and follow it.

For example -

The term “lost boys” was coined by Shem and Dan Fischer in 2004, when Dan Fischer began his Diversity Foundation in Salt Lake City to help troubled boys who had left the FLDS culture. People are a combination of many traits, and it is easy to oversimplify. Dan Fischer likely is motivated in part by a desire to help these boys, and he no doubt has done much good for some who have made such a radical departure from FLDS beliefs that they no longer feel comfortable in their former culture; but being a bitter ex-FLDS member, Dan also is motivated by a desire to attack the religion he was once a part of. As a successful dentist and businessman, he differs from other anti-FLDS crusaders in maintaining a greater professional distance and manipulating others into making more direct attacks on the FLDS religion.

Needing a group of young men to make public statements at the July 31, 2004, news conference on the steps of the Utah State Capitol Building held to launch his Diversity Foundation, Dan hosted a party at his home the week before. The Deseret News of August 26, 2004, included statements from several of the teenagers who attended this party, showing that they felt manipulated and exploited.
George Barlow, who was 20 years old at the time, married and working full time, reported, “One of his guys called me and asked if I wanted to start some stuff against Warren Jeffs. He said they were willing to pay me $500 for the trip up, to take me to a game, put me up in top-of-the-line hotels in Salt Lake City. I told him I didn’t care for it.”

Dan Timpson, 19, who left home two years before, also refused a similar offer. “I didn’t have to run away from home,” he said. “My dad helped me; he let me do that and let me make my own choice. I have no problem with the folks out there. I left the place with a good feeling. They’re good people, and I personally think people should live the way they want.” At the time of the Deseret News article, Dan Timpson was working with his father in the tile-setting business.
Some who attended the party reported that beer and wine were made available to any of the young people who desired to partake and that many had done so. One 16-year-old girl reported that an attorney talked to each teen to see who was willing to make statements about why they were “kicked out.” “They got a lot of those kids drunk,” she said. “Every last child there was underage. Alcohol was given to any child who wanted it. I told my mom about it as soon as we got back. It was crazy. Most of the things the kids said up there, they were drunk and they lied. It was just sad. Those kids were all saying their parents kicked them out. But they weren’t; they had a choice.” At the time of the article, this girl was living in St. George, working part-time, and attending high school.

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=68

This a quite lengthy article containing letters from some of the boys as well as from the parents of "the boys."


There is a man who grew up FLDS and has removed himself from the the group. He blogs under the name of "Pligchild" and he is one of the rare ones who have left the group but without anger. He is pretty straight forward in his assessment of things. As you know, the link I posted above is definitely "pro" FLDS viewpoint. The mainstream media has done a prolific job of giving us the "con" FLDS viewpoint. So I was looking for someone more in the middle. That is why I like to read what pligchild has to say.

I am at work and cant look right now but I will find his link and post it later.

 

[Glow]

I found the blog that I had mentioned earlier of Pligchilds.

quote
"I want to address the ridiculous story that these guys were “kicked out” to reduce competition for brides. I am sorry, I am laughing just to type this. If it wasn’t all over the news I would think it was a cartoon. If these guys wanted to compete for the girls, they sure didn’t try very hard. All you had to do was obey the doctrines of the church. I am sure some men in the FLDS have as many wives as they do because there weren't enough young guys who would settle down and obey the church doctrines.

http://fldsview.blogspot.com/2008/05/lost-and-found-boys.html

 

[Glow]

Some enterprising ladies have begun offering FLDS children's clothing to the public. You will find dresses, overalls, shirts, nightgowns, sleepers and, yes, ankle-to-wrist underwear at fldsdress.com.

The "About Us" page says the site is dedicated to providing ''children with clothing that meets the FLDS standards for modesty and neatness. . . . Each piece is made with joy and care." The page features quotes from the Book of Mormon and smiling, beautific children as models.

You will find handmade denim jeans for boys and ''teen princess'' dresses in plain, jacket and vest styles in pastels shades: pink, peach, yellow, green, aqua, blue, lavender and lilac. They sell for $35.65.

Apparently, some enterprising FLDS women figured that with all the talk about the way they dress and a pressing need to support themselves, they might as well do what they do best: Sew.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

 

[Glow]

This Natalie Malonis is really something! She is the lawyer appointed to care for the "best interests" of Teresa Jeffs.



The Teresa Jeffs-Natalie Malonis dispute, will be taken up in court today. Teresa is the 16-year-old daughter of Warren S. Jeffs.

Imagine being her. Now replay the past three years, and imagine being her: The FBI's Most Wanted List, the news shows, YouTube parodies, the T-shirts, the Big Love, the Lost Boys, the Escape and Stolen Innocence, the Oprah shows -- all of it centered on your father.

It is easy to focus on the man, forget about the sons and daughters.

And now, Teresa finds herself, or at least her life, in the kleig lights.

Already, Natalie has revealed all kinds of things about Teresa in courtroom statements or filings, from suspicions the teenager had a child (wrong) to an alleged spiritual marriage (unclear) to having had sexual relations (denied) and the girl's scheduled appearance before the grand jury meeting in Schleicher County this week.

So much for grand jury secrecy.

Natalie says her source for most of this information about Teresa is CPS and law enforcement. Are CPS and law enforcement queuing up other attorneys, too? We'll see.

Natalie has said other teenagers are in similar situations but she is the only attorney to seek special conditions for her client and to take the details public.

Teresa has gone public now, as well, letting Judge Barbara Walther and all the world know she wants a new attorney, one who won't oppose her desire to write her father and move, along with her mother and siblings, back to the YFZ Ranch.

Natalie told me yesterday that yes, she is supposed to represent Teresa's wishes to the court. But, Texas Family Code allows an attorney ad litem to ''substitute'' his or her judgment when a child's desires are not deemed appropriate.

And Natalie is asserting that Teresa's requests are being shaped by those around her -- specifically Willie Jessop, an FLDS member and spokesman for the sect.

Teresa adamantly insists that is not the case, that she lost confidence in Natalie months ago because of the way the attorney treated and talked about her, her father and her faith.

Here are a few questions: If Willie is the problem, why is the temporary order Walther issued last week fixated on Annette, Teresa's mother? Why is Annette being subpoenaed to appear in court rather than Willie? What are the possibilities? That Annette will be charged with failure to protect her daughter and be jailed? Or have Teresa, if not her other children, taken away?

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

 

[Glow]

What do you do when you get bored with sitting outside a courthouse waiting to testify to a grand jury?

If you are Teresa Jeffs, you climb a towering live oak.

Teresa, the 16-year-old daughter of FLDS leader Warren S. Jeffs, got four women and several attorneys to help her haul a picnic table over to the tree. Despite her long blue dress, Teresa clambered up and found a nice branch where she perched about 30-feet off the ground.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

 

[Glow]

The level of misinformation about the FLDS and their ways is astounding. I, myself, began with the same picture of these people as is commonly held–an extremist cult who practices a perverted form of the restorationist doctrine of celestial plural marriage wherein young girls are forced into early marriage and pregnancy, kept in poor conditions, mistreated–all to serve the lusts of the ruling body of old men, who oust young boys to keep them from stealing their would-be brides. Sensationally salcious to say the least, and those who spread such an image, such as Carolyn and Flora Jessop or Elissa Wall, undoubtedly sell many more books painting the FLDS that way than they would if the picture were a little truer to life.

http://naiah.synthian.org/?p=216

 

[SewingDeb]

About the sewing website. I don't think it's going to catch on in the mainstream America. They probably sell these to other FLDS parents all the time.

I thought this was interesting from Ernie Allen, president and chief executive officer of NCMEC:

"These kids are victims. This is 21st century slavery," Allen said. "They lack the ability to walk away."

Of course, he was talking about the child prostitution arrests announced today but I think it applies here as well. I imagine these throw away and runaway children were much the same age as the ones the FLDS cheerfully marry off to older men.

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Natio...prostitutes;_ylt=AhKHomUDTlIaIug0rq0h5aGWwvIE

 

[Glow]

Hi SewingDeb,

I thought about you when I posted that link - I was guessing that you probably sew!

As for your link, I think it is wonderful that they got this stopped AND that they got attention from the press. That is good.

 

[Truly]

About the sewing website. I don't think it's going to catch on in the mainstream America. They probably sell these to other FLDS parents all the time.

I thought this was interesting from Ernie Allen, president and chief executive officer of NCMEC:

"These kids are victims. This is 21st century slavery," Allen said. "They lack the ability to walk away."

LOL, Well...Halloween is just around the corner! Imagine the possibilities! Some kids could dye their costumes black and they might as well be wearing burquas! It could be a horror parade for oppressed women everywhere! Might open some eyes to the similiarities amongst the unfortunate women worldwide who are forced to live in fear and slavery just because some man decided he owns them.

The comment about 21st century slavery is definitely appropriately applied to the women and girls who are locked into sexual slavery by the men of the FLDS. I still wonder if the multi-million-dollar compound in Eldorado, Texas was not actually built to entertain corporate clients from Las Vegas, (as the FLDS claimed when they purchased the property). The manicured grounds, the pristine little girls trained to sexually satisfy old men...What was the business plan for the YFZ ranch? Child Prostitution? We know that many of the lost boys have been dumped in Las Vegas to work as prostitutes. There is a group trying to help them who have realized that these boys are not gay prostitutes; they are homeless FLDS boys who have been dumped on the street and told to sell their bodies to men.

 

[Montana]

Can we just retitle this thread Glow's bias and be done with it? It has become pointless.

 

[Glow]

Can we just retitle this thread Glow's bias and be done with it? It has become pointless.

Montana,

Im sorry that this thread bothers you that much. I have thought at times what would I do if I was on the opposing side of my own argument.

If I hated the FLDS and wanted the truth to come out.

My answer to myself was that I would dig and find the links that would support what CPS did. I would disprove their unkindness to the innocent children they took into custody.

I would disprove the cloudy questions about the constitutionality of their actions.

I would find ONE thing other than the under aged marriage to bury these people with. I think I would begin with

their financial operations (highly suspect)

the reputations of their "leaders" (ditto)

and the problem of the "lost boys" (that one really bothers me personally)

What I know I would NOT do insult a poster (by name) rather than the post.

But that is just me. I respect the fact that you have your own approach. I welcome any FACTS that you would like me to look at to change my mind on one thing...

My one and only stand here is to tell the rest of the story about the raid which I feel was wrong. If you can bring facts to show that it was the right thing to do that would be productive.

 

[Truly]

Glow, everybody already did all of that. Over and over. Did you read all of mollymalones posts? flowerchild? etc., etc., etc.,

You flat-out refuse to entertain the reality that the men of the FLDS abuse women and children. You think it is a big joke to ignore the abuse and point out the pretty dresses and degrade all of us who get it. Montana is right. This is pointless.

 

[Glow]

I asked this question earlier, but I wanted to post it again. So many seem to feel these girls are being denied an education. I was wondering about the educational level of all of us posting here. We are free and mainstream and can get as much education as we want. So how much did you get? How about your moms? Your daughters? Your sisters? Your friends?

Good grief I am actually qouting my own post - I was too lazy to retype :doh:


A lot of concern has been expressed over the education that the young women get in the FLDS. I was wanting to pose the same question again. Logically, if we are going to fault these women for not getting a good education, then we on the outside are availing ourselves of that I assume. I would really like to hear whatanyone thinks on that topic.

 

[SewingDeb]

Glow, my parents were college graduates. My oldest daughter graduated from college this year, my middle daughter is in college and my youngest daughter just graduated high school and will go to college in the fall.

I don't know about everyone else but I imagine they believe in education as well. Why are you so intent on comparing mainstream society with FLDS?