The Rest of the Story...

[Pepper]

I find the marriages between them old men and some are REALLY old, and those young innocent girls totally disgusting. I saw one pic online but I cant remember his name, however he was truly an old age pensioner and had married THREE young sisters....that is just revolting

I believe you are thinking of Rulon Jeffs, father of Warren Jeffs, the pedophile "prophet" and convicted felon, now a guest of the State of Arizona. Creepy. I understand that many, if not all, of the late Rulon's wives are now the wives of Warren. Sick.

 

[Glow]

So back on the topic of the children who had to live out this raid...



Of course the FLDS are too restrained to act this way but the emotions felt by this child are still the same

as any child would feel even if they keep their feelings internalized.

Child dragged away by police on command of CPS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g8Fgq2xkTc

 

[Ciara]

I believe you are thinking of Rulon Jeffs, father of Warren Jeffs, the pedophile "prophet" and convicted felon, now a guest of the State of Arizona. Creepy. I understand that many, if not all, of the late Rulon's wives are now the wives of Warren. Sick.

Yes Pepper...I think that was him. There is just no way that is right under the guise of Religion. They just use the religion as an excuse to get away with it.
As for the "reassignment" of wives that goes on......you'd think they were cows being brought to market. Totally vile practices.

 

[Glow]

No matter how much we might disagree with what we understand of the religious teachings of the FLDS, our American respect for due process of law should moderate our response to accusations against any of them.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/19/cps-judge-threatened-american-foundation/


HG tells me that in her Constitutional Law Course at her university, she was absolutely flabbergasted by the number of students who would flatly say, "I don't care if it's unconstitutional. I want to see..." and then finish up with some pet cause of theirs. Often the pet cause itself was a noble, admirable, and worthy goal. Sometimes it was even an appropriate cause for government action, if that action was taken in proper fashion. But her classmates, most of whom were upper classmen who were doing well in school, didn't care about the means, so long as they approved the ends.
Those who justify the harming of hundreds of children by saying it's worth it if only they can save one 'reason' the same way. This is the sort of reasoning that claims to be all about the children, but really, it's obviously only about making the person who so nonchalantly dismisses the traumatizing of hundreds of children feel better about herself.

How many Constitutional limitations on government are trampled underfoot every day by people receiving a government salary? And when are we going to say "Enough?"

http://heartkeepercommonroom.blogspot.com/

 

[Glow]

Yes Pepper...I think that was him. There is just no way that is right under the guise of Religion. They just use the religion as an excuse to get away with it.
As for the "reassignment" of wives that goes on......you'd think they were cows being brought to market. Totally vile practices.

No matter where one stands as regards this case, that term keeps getting tossed out by both sides.


I read a link a few days ago where Judge Walther refered to the hearing as a cattle call - I just tried the link and it has expired - maybe I can find it quoted somewhere else.

Here is another place where that term "cattle" is used -

"Walther ordered the separation at the coliseum which CPS misleadingly described as “orderly and calm.” Eye witnesses, including attorney Rod Parker, says the separation was exactly the opposite: a horrifying scene of “complete pandemonium”:


As the children, all younger than 5, figured out what was happening, they started screaming and CPS workers had to pry many away from their mothers. “This is inhuman. This is un-American,” said Parker, who also said a civil rights lawsuit is possible.

What a cruel and inhuman way to treat fellow Americans, no matter what their religious beliefs. Having done no wrong, they are tortured and driven like cattle. And all of this at Walther’s order."

http://iperceive.net/judge-barbara-walther-madame-defarge-of-san-angelo-texas/#more-329

 

[Ciara]

I think that all depends on whether we see what CPS did as "torture". I do not see it that way sorry. Thanks for the links though

 

[pamlet]

That is a HUGE point to be made on this topic. If the goal is to change the behavoir, it begins by reaching the heart and mind since that is where "ingrained" things reside.

Boy howdy ... that is exactly HOW you reach them..

 

[SewingDeb]

Glow,

Snipped your post a little. You said:

The bottom line is as long as it is 2 adults (which means they would be biologically mature sexual beings) there is still a basis for the behaving sexually. That just simply is not ever true with children.


So, are you saying once a girl starts her period, she is biologically mature sexual being and fair game for any man to marry and have children with? That's the way I read it but I can tell you that 11, 12, 13 and 14 year old girls may have their period but they are in no way emotionally mature and ready to decide their whole futures. I think motherhood should be put off until the mother is mature, mentally and emotionally. There is less abuse of children over all when the mother is actually ready for the responsibility. Another thought, would a very young girl love a child born of a union with a much older man she was forced to marry and sleep with? Have you thought about that?

 

[Ciara]

Glow,

Snipped your post a little. You said:

The bottom line is as long as it is 2 adults (which means they would be biologically mature sexual beings) there is still a basis for the behaving sexually. That just simply is not ever true with children.


So, are you saying once a girl starts her period, she is biologically mature sexual being and fair game for any man to marry and have children with? That's the way I read it but I can tell you that 11, 12, 13 and 14 year old girls may have their period but they are in no way emotionally mature and ready to decide their whole futures. I think motherhood should be put off until the mother is mature, mentally and emotionally. There is less abuse of children over all when the mother is actually ready for the responsibility. Another thought, would a very young girl love a child born of a union with a much older man she was forced to marry and sleep with? Have you thought about that?

Truly has asked this question several times but it has not been answered. I would like the answer too actually. I would bust the head of any man who tried to sleep with my daughter just because she may have started her periods at 11 and he would still be a paedophile by any other name.
Reading the part you bolded SewingDeb it does look like that is what Glow is saying so maybe you could clarify for us Glow please

 

[Mira]

Truly has asked this question several times but it has not been answered. I would like the answer too actually. I would bust the head of any man who tried to sleep with my daughter just because she may have started her periods at 11 and he would still be a paedophile by any other name.
Reading the part you bolded SewingDeb it does look like that is what Glow is saying so maybe you could clarify for us Glow please

note that the word 'adult' comes before the words 'sexually mature'. i dont think any of us, including glow, think one and the other are the same.

all this mess has been blown out of proportion by BOTH sides. reminds me of the last few weeks before a political election, mud flung all over the place and some sticks in the most funny ways.

personally i dont know what to think yet. too much ugly on both sides.

 

[Glow]

Reading the part you bolded SewingDeb it does look like that is what Glow is saying so maybe you could clarify for us Glow please

The young of all mammalian species do not have sexual characteristics. That's why puppies and foals and lambs dont mate. It is the same higher up the ladder with us. Any adult who looks at a person with NO sexual triggers (this would be a child) and wants to have sex with them is NOT working off of biology. That is a sexual deviance and those people are very dangerous. My personal feeling is, if they even attempt something of a sexual nature with a child - they should be put to death because this particular type of deviancy is unfortunately related to poor impulse control. They are a menace and dangerous. I have been told that I am "harsh" for thinking those should be death penalty cases. Perhaps, but that is my opinion.

Two adult gay people whether male or female are working off of sexual clues that EXIST. Is that appropriate or not is a long debated thing, but the important thing is, the clues themselves are appropriate- age wise. I do not see gay people and pedophiles as having anything at all in common. That was the point my post was trying to make.

 

[Glow]

note that the word 'adult' comes before the words 'sexually mature'. i dont think any of us, including glow, think one and the other are the same.
all this mess has been blown out of proportion by BOTH sides. reminds me of the last few weeks before a political election, mud flung all over the place and some sticks in the most funny ways.

personally i dont know what to think yet. too much ugly on both sides.

Thanks for reading the post as written, without presupposition. I really appreciate that! :blowkiss:

 

[Ciara]

The young of all mammalian species do not have sexual characteristics. That's why puppies and foals and lambs dont mate. It is the same higher up the ladder with us. Any adult who looks at a person with NO sexual triggers (this would be a child) and wants to have sex with them is NOT working off of biology. That is a sexual deviance and those people are very dangerous. My personal feeling is, if they even attempt something of a sexual nature with a child - they should be put to death because this particular type of deviancy is unfortunately related to poor impulse control. They are a menace and dangerous. I have been told that I am "harsh" for thinking those should be death penalty cases. Perhaps, but that is my opinion.

Two adult gay people whether male or female are working off of sexual clues that EXIST. Is that appropriate or not is a long debated thing, but the important thing is, the clues themselves are appropriate- age wise. I do not see gay people and pedophiles as having anything at all in common. That was the point my post was trying to make.

Thankyou Glow.....I am glad that question has been put to rest. I think I missed that part of the original post you had made earlier so was confused by whether thats what you were supposed to have meant or not. I TOTALLY agree with you that they should be Death Penalty cases and I dont really care if I am called harsh for it or not...not when it comes to innocent children. I think you explained yourself in this last post of yours very well:clap: Thankyou for clarifying

 

[Ciara]

note that the word 'adult' comes before the words 'sexually mature'. i dont think any of us, including glow, think one and the other are the same.

all this mess has been blown out of proportion by BOTH sides. reminds me of the last few weeks before a political election, mud flung all over the place and some sticks in the most funny ways.

personally i dont know what to think yet. too much ugly on both sides.

I totally missed the post Mira....I certainly missed the "adult" part. It will teach me to read ALL the posts before sticking my oar in:bang:

 

[Glow]

Thankyou Glow.....I am glad that question has been put to rest.

I guess we will see if it is at "rest" - seems to keep popping up - but I hope you are right!

I think I missed that part of the original post you had made earlier so was confused by whether thats what you were supposed to have meant or not.

When I posted what I did last night I was talking about homosexuals and not about the FLDS or about children. The topic being discussed at that moment (in my mind) was :

will pedophiles use some of the same arguments that gays have to achieve the rights that gays have achieved?

I was trying to point out why I do not think they will be able to successfully do that.

I think that word "biologically" is what caused confusion - that and lots of different ideas all flowing at once! :blowkiss:

 

[Ciara]

They wont be successful Glow (the paedos) but the sickos will keep trying

 

[SewingDeb]

Thanks for clarifying that Glow.

Just for the record, you don't think just because a girl is physically able to get pregnant at a young age makes her ready for marriage and giving birth?

Some of your earlier posts make me question that.

 

[Truly]

Any adult who looks at a person with NO sexual triggers (this would be a child) and wants to have sex with them is NOT working off of biology.

What is a 'sexual trigger'? A girl's first period? Tiny budding breasts? Do you think that a girl is biologically no longer a child once she has begun to enter puberty? Is she then fair game for adult men?

Cute little fuzzy lambs and bunnies and ponies aside, as soon as a girl approaches puberty, the FLDS place her in a fenced pen with a herd of other women who have also been 'assigned' to one old bull. They breed her as soon as she can be bred, and they keep breeding her for life. That is the actual cattle analogy here.

 

[Glow]

Thanks for clarifying that Glow.

Just for the record, you don't think just because a girl is physically able to get pregnant at a young age makes her ready for marriage and giving birth?

Some of your earlier posts make me question that.

I dont think that there is one pat answer to that question.

I think the human body has its own innate wisdom. A female body wouldn't be "able" to conceive if it were not meant to. So BIOLOGICALY you have one answer.

As for emotionally? Heck no. Not in todays modern world. Something has happened to make that so. We have undergone the feminist movement where we have been persuaded to think that "choices" and "careers" are our fast track to fulfillment.

100 years ago, marriage and children were viewed as the way to fulfillment. Even in countries today that are not struggling to find balance in a post feminist world, the age at which a girl is "ready" emotionally to parent runs younger. The more sophisticated the society - the higher the number is.

I think American girls have been fed a steady diet of how you can "be" anything and "do" anything and the word "choices" sounds very empowering. It is currently very much in vogue to stress this with our young women and girls.

The results are in and they are not good. Remember the pregnancy pact a few weeks back? Also the stats on teenagers getting pregnant is going up. At the same time the stigma of being a pregnant teen is going down, Juno anyone?

What most females seem to want at the end of the day remains the same though - a man that loves them. Children. Financial and emotional security.

I dont think the average American teen aged girl has ANY business having a baby. They have been misled on so many levels about what having a child means, they dont understand that the Spears sisters are not really role models.

The average Catholic girl just a few decades ago, married in her teens and began to produce as many children as she could, as fast as she could. This was viewed as pleasing to God.

While that lifestyle isnt for me - I understand it. The FLDS and mainstream Mormons still strive for the same goal. The fact that I dont personally approve of it for me or my daughter doesn't matter one whit. It is what it is.

As far as the idea that teen pregnancies are more dangerous for the teen - if you go to any reputable web site you will quickly see that it is the American teen life style, that is incompatible with having a healthy pregnancy, that causes those statistics to rise. Things such as drinking, smoking, junk food, lack of prenatal care etc. When (and if) you replace those with a good diet adequate rest and exercise and good prenatal care, the statistical outcomes begin to more closely mirror those of older teens and women.

So just so I am clear...

I think the older the better

I understand that Utopia is just a word

I know that the body has its own timeline and I can work with that knowledge.

I know (as I have said before) that historically Mary, the mother of Jesus was around 14 when she gave birth. She may have been 13 when she got pregnant, we dont know.

I know that even though we have changed a lot socially since then - our bodies are still structurally the same as then.

I know God in his infinite wisdom would have not allowed anything to happen to Mary that was inherently harmful.

I know this post has a high probability of being misquoted.

 

[Ciara]

I dont think that there is one pat answer to that question.

I think the human body has its own innate wisdom. A female body wouldn't be "able" to conceive if it were not meant to. So BIOLOGICALY you have one answer.

As for emotionally? Heck no. Not in todays modern world. Something has happened to make that so. We have undergone the feminist movement where we have been persuaded to think that "choices" and "careers" are our fast track to fulfillment.

100 years ago, marriage and children were viewed as the way to fulfillment. Even in countries today that are not struggling to find balance in a post feminist world, the age at which a girl is "ready" emotionally to parent runs younger. The more sophisticated the society - the higher the number is.

I think American girls have been fed a steady diet of how you can "be" anything and "do" anything and the word "choices" sounds very empowering. It is currently very much in vogue to stress this with our young women and girls.

The results are in and they are not good. Remember the pregnancy pact a few weeks back? Also the stats on teenagers getting pregnant is going up. At the same time the stigma of being a pregnant teen is going down, Juno anyone?

What most females seem to want at the end of the day remains the same though - a man that loves them. Children. Financial and emotional security.

I dont think the average American teen aged girl has ANY business having a baby. They have been misled on so many levels about what having a child means, they dont understand that the Spears sisters are not really role models.

The average Catholic girl just a few decades ago, married in her teens and began to produce as many children as she could, as fast as she could. This was viewed as pleasing to God.

While that lifestyle isnt for me - I understand it. The FLDS and mainstream Mormons still strive for the same goal. The fact that I dont personally approve of it for me or my daughter doesn't matter one whit. It is what it is.

As far as the idea that teen pregnancies are more dangerous for the teen - if you go to any reputable web site you will quickly see that it is the American teen life style, that is incompatible with having a healthy pregnancy, that causes those statistics to rise. Things such as drinking, smoking, junk food, lack of prenatal care etc. When (and if) you replace those with a good diet adequate rest and exercise and good prenatal care, the statistical outcomes begin to more closely mirror those of older teens and women.

So just so I am clear...

I think the older the better

I understand that Utopia is just a word

I know that the body has its own timeline and I can work with that knowledge.

I know (as I have said before) that historically Mary, the mother of Jesus was around 14 when she gave birth. She may have been 13 when she got pregnant, we dont know.

I know that even though we have changed a lot socially since then - our bodies are still structurally the same as then.

I know God in his infinite wisdom would have not allowed anything to happen to Mary that was inherently harmful.

I know this post has a high probability of being misquoted.

To this post all I will say is that Biologically, Ethically, Morally. Emotionally....whatever "ally"....No no no no way is she ready nor should it happen.