The Use of the Shovel

[RR0004]

Ok my apologies here is a link to PB thread #1 and the beginning of the discussion abt the pic of the side yard:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Casey's Photobucket

Now that's odd. Does that mean someone from the As took the pic?

 

[christee]

I'm trying to post attach's:

 

[BondJamesBond]

Hmmmmm....don't wanna stray any further from, "use of the shovel" on this thread.

Got onto the pic w/ the potential for it showing something wrt mulch.

 

[RR0004]

Hmmmmm....don't wanna stray any further from, "use of the shovel" on this thread.

Got onto the pic w/ the potential for it showing something wrt mulch.

Confused...

 

[christee]

You're right BJB-oops! :bang:
So...maybe the A's used BBs shovel on the side yard to move mulch-lol

(BTW I fixed the link to PB #1)

 

[christee]

RR0004,
Got OT on the yard pic :slap:
I posted an attachment of side yard and floor plan but I really need to take it to another thread.
Sorry guys, see what I mean abt this pic driving me batty?

(I'm just gonna lurk for awhile)

 

[Just Jayla]

Hey Bond! You mention a link to the picture but there is no link? Help a girl out would you with said link to 7-16 picture?

Also we must recall that Caylee slept with Casey in HER room and important to note I think is the fact that Tracy tells us that Casey did not spend one single night in her OWN bed-she slept with Cindy and George was evicted...why didn't Casey want to sleep in HER room? I think this lends some credence to the fact that she may have killed Caylee in her room (Casey's) and did not want to sleep where she had murdered her daughter...she killed her somewhere...:waitasec:

I can see this being the case, KC did have some recurring thoughts about Caylee, afterall-Remember TL caught her up late looking at Caylee on her computer (not that she was crying, just looking, maybe it was bothering her)

Or, I figured maybe this was because they did not want to leave her alone with Tracy while they were asleep, in case KC started to talk, or because Tracy was more like a guest than a friend....I think KC did stay in her room when AD was there, and CA set up the air matress on KC's floor.

 

[shadow of my mind]

Could Casey have figured that she would bury Caylee back by the fence where the bamboo is since she knows how fast it grows and when she discovered that she would have to cut through the ground fabric she abandoned the plan put Caylee back in the trunk and returned the shovel. Scraping some mulch aside to clear a spot would not have left any dirt on the shovel but a laundry bag that Caylee was in could have picked up some dirt which was then transfer to the trunk. Along the way there may have been some ‘leakage’ that she didn’t notice causing the dogs to alert. If I understand how the dogs work correctly any place that Casey set anything down that was in contact with the body or the body fluids would leave a scent that the dogs would pick up.
In Casey’s mind she was really just using the shovel for the bamboo.

 

[TakeNote]

BJB, would your scenario of KC using the shovel for mulch be the reason why LE took the pic of the A's side yard at night the same day KC was arrested?
Could she have taken some of the mulch from the lilies along the fence outside Caylees' BR window or from the dark area on the ground near the faucet?

this pic is great for talking about what the shovel could have been used for.....sometimes we do go a bit OT.....but it still comes back to the shovel.....do we know yet if this is a pic from the A's or LE?

i see that the hose is off the focet as well.....i remember something about a focet attachment being taken......off the back porch.....was there anything in any of the doc dumps about that?

with the mulch looking like its been moved or thinned.....could KC have washed off the shovel? and that caused the mulch to look like that?....i wonder if she could have washed off other stuff as well....

 

[Leila]

The shovel has always been a source of confusion........what was it used for? We've got several points of evidence:

1. Two different cadaver dogs hit on the same three locations in the Anthony backyard. Cadaver dogs are trained to specifically alert to only human decomposition.

2. There was a depression noted by the pool, that George says wasn't there before.

3. Prior to the police involvement in this case, George and Cindy had concerns about the backyard and by their own admission, did their own inspection.

4. There was a small shrub moved sometime during the time frame in question.

5. Tracy has told investigators that the first night she stayed in the Anthony home after Casey was let out on bond, they were in the kitchen when Casey, talking about the shovel, stated that "they (LE) haven't even got the time frame right." She also made the statement that the shovel was "used to get the ladder out of the pool."

Casey was arrested on Wednesday, July 16th. On Friday, July 18th, a local media interviewed George and Cindy in their home. It was about a 20 minute interview. That interview has bothered me since I first heard it.

Instead of talking about their beloved granddaughter missing and making a tearful plea to the kidnapper to return her, George and Cindy talked about child safety in their home. They said that they were always careful to make sure the pool ladder was up after each use of the pool; that their tool shed was locked and only George and Cindy knew where the key was; and that Casey was always worried about Caylee hurting her feet on bamboo shoots and would use a shovel to dig the bamboo out.

Besides being a very strange interview with supposedly grieving grandparents, I look back on that interview and realize that George and Cindy were giving an explanation at that early date - two days after Casey's arrest - for the issues that would later come up in the case - the pool ladder, the shovel, and the tool shed.

Something happened in the Anthony's backyard and they knew it. They were trying to give an innocent explanation on whatever happened. On Friday, July 18, 2008, the cover-up had begun.

 

[BondJamesBond]

RR0004,
Got OT on the yard pic :slap:
I posted an attachment of side yard and floor plan but I really need to take it to another thread.
Sorry guys, see what I mean abt this pic driving me batty?

(I'm just gonna lurk for awhile)

Christee - don't you go lurkin'! You brought all this together and sparked something for me!! :blowkiss:

I can see this being the case, KC did have some recurring thoughts about Caylee, afterall-Remember TL caught her up late looking at Caylee on her computer (not that she was crying, just looking, maybe it was bothering her)

Or, I figured maybe this was because they did not want to leave her alone with Tracy while they were asleep, in case KC started to talk, or because Tracy was more like a guest than a friend....I think KC did stay in her room when AD was there, and CA set up the air matress on KC's floor.

Excellent explanation, JJ. Kinduva like a Survior alliance 'tween Cindy & Casey IYKWIM. Keepin' Casey away from Tracy during what might've been the riskiest/longest time for girl-talk confessions makes perfect sense!

Could Casey have figured that she would bury Caylee back by the fence where the bamboo is since she knows how fast it grows and when she discovered that she would have to cut through the ground fabric she abandoned the plan put Caylee back in the trunk and returned the shovel. Scraping some mulch aside to clear a spot would not have left any dirt on the shovel but a laundry bag that Caylee was in could have picked up some dirt which was then transfer to the trunk. Along the way there may have been some ‘leakage’ that she didn’t notice causing the dogs to alert. If I understand how the dogs work correctly any place that Casey set anything down that was in contact with the body or the body fluids would leave a scent that the dogs would pick up.
In Casey’s mind she was really just using the shovel for the bamboo.

Shadow! :blowkiss: I hadn't really thought about the ground fabric aspect that you pointed out. Excellent thought!

this pic is great for talking about what the shovel could have been used for.....sometimes we do go a bit OT.....but it still comes back to the shovel.....do we know yet if this is a pic from the A's or LE?

i see that the hose is off the focet as well.....i remember something about a focet attachment being taken......off the back porch.....was there anything in any of the doc dumps about that?

with the mulch looking like its been moved or thinned.....could KC have washed off the shovel? and that caused the mulch to look like that?....i wonder if she could have washed off other stuff as well....

*bold & color by me*

TakeNote - :blowkiss: Your post struck a nerve for me when I combined it w/the pic christee posted. I don't recall anything about the faucet attachment off the back porch :shocked2: THAT could be key to the whole d@mn thing here! Tell you why after I snip Leila's post for a couple points...

The shovel has always been a source of confusion........what was it used for? We've got several points of evidence:

1. Two different cadaver dogs hit on the same three locations in the Anthony backyard. Cadaver dogs are trained to specifically alert to only human decomposition.

2. There was a depression noted by the pool, that George says wasn't there before.

3. Prior to the police involvement in this case, George and Cindy had concerns about the backyard and by their own admission, did their own inspection.

4. There was a small shrub moved sometime during the time frame in question.

5. Tracy has told investigators that the first night she stayed in the Anthony home after Casey was let out on bond, they were in the kitchen when Casey, talking about the shovel, stated that "they (LE) haven't even got the time frame right." She also made the statement that the shovel was "used to get the ladder out of the pool."

Casey was arrested on Wednesday, July 16th. On Friday, July 18th, a local media interviewed George and Cindy in their home. It was about a 20 minute interview. That interview has bothered me since I first heard it.

Instead of talking about their beloved granddaughter missing and making a tearful plea to the kidnapper to return her, George and Cindy talked about child safety in their home. They said that they were always careful to make sure the pool ladder was up after each use of the pool; that their tool shed was locked and only George and Cindy knew where the key was; and that Casey was always worried about Caylee hurting her feet on bamboo shoots and would use a shovel to dig the bamboo out.

Besides being a very strange interview with supposedly grieving grandparents, I look back on that interview and realize that George and Cindy were giving an explanation at that early date - two days after Casey's arrest - for the issues that would later come up in the case - the pool ladder, the shovel, and the tool shed.

Something happened in the Anthony's backyard and they knew it. They were trying to give an innocent explanation on whatever happened. On Friday, July 18, 2008, the cover-up had begun.

On second thought...I can't snip it...too good...but let me address a couple of specific points.

Point 1) IIRC, the 2 K9's didn't both alert on the same 3 spots. IIRC, it is detailed in a released report, but, I don't recall the specifics. I don't suggest that it was "inconsistent" as Cindy describes it, but, I had the impression that all 3 spots weren't "confirmed" by both K9's which would be the origin of Cindy's characterization. Subtle point maybe...maybe I'm remembering it incorrectly, but, love for someone to source that point for us if they have it handy.

Point 2) IIRC, George commented to LE as described in the released report that he agreed w/ the LE agent that first observed the depression that it was suspicious (forget the exact word used). I don't recall getting a specific verbatim on this comment...so I always kinda think about it as George could've just given passing agreement to the agent....(like "Hmmm :waitasec: I see what you mean..." and could've been followed with the hibiscus explanation (or not) although I don't recall the hibiscus story in an LE report...just the media. Point bein' I don't recall George ever saying it wasn't there before...be happy for someone to correct me.

OK...

Here's something to consider IF I can run with some of the points made above.

I forget where it was asked above, but, the pic is from LE...and the curiosity is WTH would they take this pic 7/16 after the pic of the white trash bag being recovered from the dumpster...and would the reason they took this pic maybe clue us into something about the shovel.

I'm sorry this'll go a bit OT to the shovel :bang: but IMHO the reason LE took this picture is to show that very recently to 7/16 (sometime after the Pontiac arrived @ G&C's 7/15PM I contend) the hose reel had been moved!!!!! :shocked2: This picture SHOWS you that because the patten of the leaves near the faucet in the pic betray that the hose reel box (barely visible in the bottom right corner of the pic) HAD been sitting next to the faucet and kept those colored leaves from falling on the ground - HENCE the abrubt stop!! The washout of mulch adjacent to this shows where water from the faucet and/or coiled up might typically occur when in its 'normal' place.

WHY would you move the hose reel???? Because you needed the hose to extend further than it could! :shocked2: And/or you needed to use the hose from a different faucet...say....the one off the back porch!! That one would enable you to reach an area further away from the house...say...the area of mulch back by the back patio/picnic table, etc. where the K9 alerts were in what might be the low-points where wash water would collect/puddle.

IF the faucet attachment near the backporch was taken...perhaps it was for prints, from being noticeably wet/muddy from recent use...or wishful thinking...from a decomp alert. A "faucet attachment" to me would describe what I call a male quick-connect fitting that is typically screwed onto the threaded part of the faucet. It has an o-ring that allows a hose (with a matching female fitting) to be quicly & conveniently attached & unattached from the faucet. The attachment typically stays on the faucet where the hose is most often used. IF this is the attachment...and it was found on the backporch faucet instead of on the faucet @ the side of the hose where the leaves, etc. betray the hose reel had been sitting...even without prints, mud/moisture, or decomp on it...it would strongly support that the hose reel had been very recently moved & used @ the backporch faucet and the user (perhaps in a rush ) forgot to move it back when they took the hose reel back to the corner of the house. :thumb:

 

[Misfitdolly]

Is there another picture of this hose reel somewhere? The spot that looks like something is missing is rather large, it is a big square, you can see where the side of it would be up against the white spigot then where the front of it would be is a slight white line of some sort then the right side right along where the date stamp is. It looks too big to be a hose reel to me, but perhaps there are some that large?

 

[BondJamesBond]

Is there another picture of this hose reel somewhere? The spot that looks like something is missing is rather large, it is a big square, you can see where the side of it would be up against the white spigot then where the front of it would be is a slight white line of some sort then the right side right along where the date stamp is. It looks too big to be a hose reel to me, but perhaps there are some that large?

Yes - I can grab another pic or two that show the hose reel. It is actually one of those 'box' types that does consume kinduva large footprint.

For the sake of not driving the 'shovel' thread any further into the ditch than I already have...I'll do a forum search to see if (a) this fits better with the existing thread(s) on the Anthony's backyard, or (b) warrants a new thread on 'the use of the hose' if that doesn't already exist. If it turns out to be "b" then we can take some of the ref mat'l over to that thread.

My apologies for the OT on this thread...but...quite frankly it was the information being presented here that pointed me to the 'hose'. :bang:

It'll be later this PM before I can get things done.

 

[Curious Me]

A word of encouragement to BondJamesBond and all of you for really getting into this because this is the best sleuthing community with the sharpest of sleuthers. You're on to something.

Didn't even think the neighbor could have been thrown under the bus too until someone brought that up. Still think the internet searches for household weapons and shovel seem almost planted there on the computer for some strange reason way before the crime. I guess it has to prove premeditation, and then borrowing the shovel made it part of this investigation. The more we talk about the Anthony's yard, the more suspious they seem.

Covering the body with mulch in a depression in the yard, and using Caylee's window to move her outside seems possible. I don't know what to make of all the mulch that had decomp being scattered back all over the yard---so, was the mulch replaced when Cindy and George revamped their yard before July 16th?

 

[The Eunice Burns]

Yes - I can grab another pic or two that show the hose reel. It is actually one of those 'box' types that does consume kinduva large footprint.

For the sake of not driving the 'shovel' thread any further into the ditch than I already have...I'll do a forum search to see if (a) this fits better with the existing thread(s) on the Anthony's backyard, or (b) warrants a new thread on 'the use of the hose' if that doesn't already exist. If it turns out to be "b" then we can take some of the ref mat'l over to that thread.

My apologies for the OT on this thread...but...quite frankly it was the information being presented here that pointed me to the 'hose'. :bang:

It'll be later this PM before I can get things done.

BBM I don't think it's OT at all. I think it comes around to the shovel and what it was used for. Keep going.......

 

[Pink Panther]

I've always seen the shovel as a bright red herring. I think she asked for it to do something that she didn't end up doing. There was no relevant evidence taken from the shovel apart from the fact that was thinking/trying to do something that she didn't end up doing.

JMO

 

[CitizenKim]

Maybe she was just going to use the shovel to break into the shed for the gas cans?

Then perhaps common sense made a BRIEF appearance and she realized that the break in and the shovel being borrowed would be connected. I've always thought that she was after those gas cans for more than just fueling her car.

 

[CentralFLMama]

I don't know why she used the shovel, but the notion of her using it to get the ladder out of the pool seems absurd. Trying to get up high enough, trying to maneuver it, trying to pull it up against the weight of the water. It would be quicker to just get in the pool and get it out and go change clothes. I just can't buy that someone would use a shovel to to get a ladder out of a pool.

 

[Curious Me]

I agree, borrowing a shovel to get the ladder out the pool makes no sense. There must have been a broom, or pole or some kind in the house/garage to use for that purpose. A shovel would not even be a good tool for that. So, IMO, getting the ladder out of pool story is just a big lie. The fact that she would lie about it means she did something nasty with that borrowed shovel.

 

[christee]

Christee - don't you go lurkin'! You brought all this together and sparked something for me!! :blowkiss:



Excellent explanation, JJ. Kinduva like a Survior alliance 'tween Cindy & Casey IYKWIM. Keepin' Casey away from Tracy during what might've been the riskiest/longest time for girl-talk confessions makes perfect sense!



Shadow! :blowkiss: I hadn't really thought about the ground fabric aspect that you pointed out. Excellent thought!

*bold & color by me*

TakeNote - :blowkiss: Your post struck a nerve for me when I combined it w/the pic christee posted. I don't recall anything about the faucet attachment off the back porch :shocked2: THAT could be key to the whole d@mn thing here! Tell you why after I snip Leila's post for a couple points...

On second thought...I can't snip it...too good...but let me address a couple of specific points.

Point 1) IIRC, the 2 K9's didn't both alert on the same 3 spots. IIRC, it is detailed in a released report, but, I don't recall the specifics. I don't suggest that it was "inconsistent" as Cindy describes it, but, I had the impression that all 3 spots weren't "confirmed" by both K9's which would be the origin of Cindy's characterization. Subtle point maybe...maybe I'm remembering it incorrectly, but, love for someone to source that point for us if they have it handy.

Point 2) IIRC, George commented to LE as described in the released report that he agreed w/ the LE agent that first observed the depression that it was suspicious (forget the exact word used). I don't recall getting a specific verbatim on this comment...so I always kinda think about it as George could've just given passing agreement to the agent....(like "Hmmm :waitasec: I see what you mean..." and could've been followed with the hibiscus explanation (or not) although I don't recall the hibiscus story in an LE report...just the media. Point bein' I don't recall George ever saying it wasn't there before...be happy for someone to correct me.

OK...

Here's something to consider IF I can run with some of the points made above.

I forget where it was asked above, but, the pic is from LE...and the curiosity is WTH would they take this pic 7/16 after the pic of the white trash bag being recovered from the dumpster...and would the reason they took this pic maybe clue us into something about the shovel.

I'm sorry this'll go a bit OT to the shovel :bang: but IMHO the reason LE took this picture is to show that very recently to 7/16 (sometime after the Pontiac arrived @ G&C's 7/15PM I contend) the hose reel had been moved!!!!! :shocked2: This picture SHOWS you that because the patten of the leaves near the faucet in the pic betray that the hose reel box (barely visible in the bottom right corner of the pic) HAD been sitting next to the faucet and kept those colored leaves from falling on the ground - HENCE the abrubt stop!! The washout of mulch adjacent to this shows where water from the faucet and/or coiled up might typically occur when in its 'normal' place.

WHY would you move the hose reel???? Because you needed the hose to extend further than it could! :shocked2: And/or you needed to use the hose from a different faucet...say....the one off the back porch!! That one would enable you to reach an area further away from the house...say...the area of mulch back by the back patio/picnic table, etc. where the K9 alerts were in what might be the low-points where wash water would collect/puddle.

IF the faucet attachment near the backporch was taken...perhaps it was for prints, from being noticeably wet/muddy from recent use...or wishful thinking...from a decomp alert. A "faucet attachment" to me would describe what I call a male quick-connect fitting that is typically screwed onto the threaded part of the faucet. It has an o-ring that allows a hose (with a matching female fitting) to be quicly & conveniently attached & unattached from the faucet. The attachment typically stays on the faucet where the hose is most often used. IF this is the attachment...and it was found on the backporch faucet instead of on the faucet @ the side of the hose where the leaves, etc. betray the hose reel had been sitting...even without prints, mud/moisture, or decomp on it...it would strongly support that the hose reel had been very recently moved & used @ the backporch faucet and the user (perhaps in a rush ) forgot to move it back when they took the hose reel back to the corner of the house. :thumb:

Good work BJB! I think ur definitely onto somethin'!!
I noticed something else in the pic-I don't think the hose is connected to the faucet in the foreground. It looks like there is a 2nd faucet closer to the shed, against the house. Could the missing faucet have come from the 1st faucet?
Also there is a backyard thread we could switch to if necessary.