The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[giantalkinghead]

I do agree that it appears not so straightforward.

I remember when TS initially went missing. I am sure many mothers across the country thought as I did; if she was abducted and there is a man involved..it can only mean one thing. TS was abducted for nefarious and or sexual purposes. Meaning rape/possibly other cash related sexual purposes, and that she was murdered after the fruitcake had his way. If it couldn't get any worse it turns out the abductors were also sadistic. Without a doubt, a parent's worst nightmare.

Sadly, as the information pooled in. The worst case scenario presented.

a. a man involved
b. a hammer involved
c. evidence of rape
d. the woman to lead her away
e. TS found with her pants gone, brutally murdered, disposed of in a rock pile in garbage bags

A miracle really, in a case such as this, that the perpetrators were found to be prosecuted let alone TS battered body. Not only were the perpetrators found but

a. law inforcement had evidence, video, blood, semen
b. a confession from one of the participants
c. perpetrators with some strange proclivities
d. a partial confession from defense that one perpetrator was at the scene; because the evidence prooved he was.

IF there were no drug use by any one mentioned in this case. What would you think happened to TS. Drug use and addiction is common. In murders such as this....it IS the guy that lives around the corner...it IS the guy in your community. It is the guy that you may have brushed by at the grocery store or the bar or who carries the crossing guard sign or knows someone you bought drugs from. And as LE will tell you, it is also the drifter, the drug user/seller, unemployed fellow who still lives with mom who lives a secret and malevolent life of fantasy, grandeur, irresponsibility and depravity. These are not my words. They are from the years of profiles done on sadistic rapist child killers. A rare breed, TS suffered a rare and horrendous fate. I trust LE, I trust the crown. MOO

You could be absolutly right... But it should be also noted that even Victoria's father still feels he has not got the whole truth. This comes loud and clear in his last interview. Though I too, trust the crown... it would be my desire that all if not most of the actual "truth" were brought forward for the jury's consideration. Maybe, just maybe, what is giving me the hardest time in this whole process has been that I watched from the start. Read numerous articles and watched each and everyday the noon hour pressers... while we all hoped beyond hope that little Victoria would come home. There is still huge holes in this trial and a whole lot of missing information that the jury has not been given. All of that is to say... I'm just not convinced on the sexual assult. That is not to say that I don't feel that MR shouldn't spend the rest of is life in jail for his part in what happened - because I do. I feel similar to Rodney... I'd like the whole truth - for Victoria's sake.... afterall she is the one who paid the ultimate price !

 

[giantalkinghead]

I don't believe there is anything more for us to learn. There are details in every murder case we are just never going to know. I don't believe there is a drug motive. I'm sure LE investigated that thoroughly and especially when they initially thought TM may have been involved. If there was anything there I'm sure the Defense would have been all over that one as a Defense. Many cases we just dont have a clear picture of motive or who did what exactly when. This case is one of them. I feel confident in what the Crown has presented as truth.

I'm not so sure about this...as I'm not a lawyer. I'm sure though that I read on here somewhere that it is possible that some of the drug issues may not have been allowed to be presented - maybe someone with more legal knowledge can fill us in a bit better on this issue. One thing for certain is there has been a whole lot of legal wrangling going on that the jury has not been given... perhaps this is what Rodney is disappointed with ??

 

[otto]

I feel as though my brain has grown in knowledge in all I've learned with this trial. I always wanted to take the drive to London to attend court just to see the inner workings of the proceedings. But I didn't feel appropriate to be among Victoria's family.

That a very respectful position to take. I think that's one of the reasons the role of talking heads bothers me ... it's entirely voyeuristic, like unveiling someone's pain and then dissecting it. It's my understanding that the prosecutor has to get inside the head of the murderer (accused, suspect) and think like they do in order to fully piece together what happened. It's an ugly place to be. I also think that many prosecutors are eventually consumed by their work ... especially after peering into the minds of criminals (murderers, rapist) for decades at the same time as understanding the family and how they process their loss. I attended a murder trial once - one day. That was enough for me to get an understanding of the sombre, sad, serious, slow, methodical atmosphere and process necessary to build and present a case against an accused.

One thing I learned - an image that has remained in my memory - is that the accused sat in a chair, elevated on a platform, in front of the judge. In US trials, the accused is always sitting next to the lawyer, so this was different. I do wonder if anyone has attended this trial and where MR is sitting.

 

[Yody04]

sorry when this has been posted somewhere already. I just don't find the time to read through all the postings.



I was very sad after listening to Rodney's statement. The long pause he had after answering the question if he is happy that the trial will be over soon confirmed my worries. The worry about the deep, dark hole after the trial. Throughout this horrific situation he could keep himself busy collecting information, thinking in circles and getting ready for the trial. What comes after that?

I am hoping he is going to find a fulfilment in life like keeping up the good work for public awareness and prevention.

I was impressed by how many stones he got rolling and that even influenced my own life. If he can fight for a safer environment for our children why not me? And I started digging and found so many things I can do in my community. It makes me feel good and helps me to cope with this horrible crime. I was just sick of it to sit just sad in a corner doing nothing. Unfortunately for Rodney we cannot turn the time back, we cannot bring back his little Tori but we all can work together for a safer future, more awareness and more attention for all the children around us (not just our own!).

Rodney I am deeply touched by your strength.

Sure I was aware of stranger, danger and and and, but I never got really moving. Everything is moving now in my own life and I call it: Tori's movement Yes little girl you got me going. Thank you for that.

 

[otto]

Whatever reason TLM took TS.

I am not buying the sexual desires theory.

There was something else going on that day......IMO.

JMO......

If this murder had nothing to do with sexual exploitation of a child, why was the child undressed from the waist down?

 

[otto]

You could be absolutly right... But it should be also noted that even Victoria's father still feels he has not got the whole truth. This comes loud and clear in his last interview. Though I too, trust the crown... it would be my desire that all if not most of the actual "truth" were brought forward for the jury's consideration. Maybe, just maybe, what is giving me the hardest time in this whole process has been that I watched from the start. Read numerous articles and watched each and everyday the noon hour pressers... while we all hoped beyond hope that little Victoria would come home. There is still huge holes in this trial and a whole lot of missing information that the jury has not been given. All of that is to say... I'm just not convinced on the sexual assult. That is not to say that I don't feel that MR shouldn't spend the rest of is life in jail for his part in what happened - because I do. I feel similar to Rodney... I'd like the whole truth - for Victoria's sake.... afterall she is the one who paid the ultimate price !

I seems to me that the father of the victim is looking for all the details about what happened to his daughter, while the trial is about presenting the necessary facts in order to secure a conviction of the accused. There's the truth about the details and the set of facts needed to achieve the task ... different goals, different set of facts. Maybe on day the father can sit down with the confessed murderer and have her tell him what really happened.

What facts are missing from the trial? What additional facts does the jury need in order to convict the accused?

 

[Kamille]

You could be absolutly right... But it should be also noted that even Victoria's father still feels he has not got the whole truth. This comes loud and clear in his last interview. Though I too, trust the crown... it would be my desire that all if not most of the actual "truth" were brought forward for the jury's consideration. Maybe, just maybe, what is giving me the hardest time in this whole process has been that I watched from the start. Read numerous articles and watched each and everyday the noon hour pressers... while we all hoped beyond hope that little Victoria would come home. There is still huge holes in this trial and a whole lot of missing information that the jury has not been given. All of that is to say... I'm just not convinced on the sexual assult. That is not to say that I don't feel that MR shouldn't spend the rest of is life in jail for his part in what happened - because I do. I feel similar to Rodney... I'd like the whole truth - for Victoria's sake.... afterall she is the one who paid the ultimate price !

The only thing that is glaringly missing here for me is the background information on Michael Thomas CS Rafferty. This man did not just turn up on April 8, 2009. IMO he planned and manipulated the abduction, rape and murder of an innocent child. And he found the perfect "dupe" to help him carry it out. It has been aluded to that his attorney was able to successfully argue some possibly pertinent information be excluded from this trial and the eyes of the jury. I will never understand this but it is our justice system and we have to adapt to it. He did not testify in his own defense likely to keep this information from the jury. Why? I am anticipating reading about these legal arguments when the jury goes into deliberations but we still will not likely have a full picture of who this man really is. I do not believe that he hasn't done something to some child at some point prior to this.

This drug debt theory is desperate at best to try and excuse his behaviour and shift all of the blame to his accomplice IMO. CM was an aging and sickly ex stripper who had a prescription for Oxycontin because of her medical problems. She obviously sold off some of that prescription to people she trusted to help make ends meet and probably to help fuel her addiction to alcohol, but to suggest that she was a low level "dealer" in the drug trade is ridiculous to me. I understand that JG may have visited her on several occasions after this abduction, so obviously she didn't have a problem with him if that is the case.

I am confident that LE have backed up as much of TLM's story as they possibly could considering that MR was out and about destroying evidence from the very first moments after this crime and for the next six weeks until his arrest. His refusal to assist LE in any way to help solve this crime 3 years ago and get to the "truth" indicates to me that he is 100 percent involved and just as guilty as his co-conspirator in the end result. But personally, I believe he is more at fault for it happening in the first place. If TLM really wanted to "grab someone off the street and kill them", she had plenty of opportunity to do that all on her own. She didn't need him. If MR wanted to rape a child, he needed someone to help lure one. Unfortunately he found someone who would do anything for a little bit of love.

MOO

 

[Ardy]

If this murder had nothing to do with sexual exploitation of a child, why was the child undressed from the waist down?

That could be an indication of a sexual assault, but is not the only possible explanation, I don't believe.

Some have mentioned the possibility that TS soiled her pants, or that MR used the pants to clean blood from the side of the car.

Anyway you look at it though.........it is a depressing mental image.

JMO..........

 

[otto]

That could be an indication of a sexual assault, but is not the only possible explanation, I don't believe.

Some have mentioned the possibility that TS soiled her pants, or that MR used the pants to clean blood from the side of the car.

Anyway you look at it though.........it is a depressing mental image.

JMO..........

Are the "half undressed" facts like the elephant in the room that some are trying to ignore so the focus can be put on drugs - for which there is no evidence?

 

[Ardy]

With the references to the EOA gang, I don't think Derstine was intimating the drug debt was to CM, but more likely to a member of the EOA gang or drug distribution network.

I remember TLM had a best buddy in jail, who was a member of EOA. I believe the woman's father was a founder of the gang. She was the one that TLM wrote all those .........murderous *****es.........letters to.

Derstine really didn't connect the dots on the drug debt theory though.

Either there is nothing there...........or people involved weren't interested in making their lifestyle public.

JMO

 

[Ardy]

Are the "half undressed" facts like the elephant in the room that some are trying to ignore so the focus can be put on drugs - for which there is no evidence?

Both facts could be true...........no?

JMO

 

[Kamille]

Are the "half undressed" facts like the elephant in the room that some are trying to ignore so the focus can be put on drugs - for which there is no evidence?

Seems that way sometimes otto. As well as a single drop of Victoria's blood, mixed with sperm, found on the door frame and moulding of the defendant's vehicle. Not to mention the statistics on why young female children are abducted by random strangers in the first place.

MOO

 

[Yody04]

The only thing that is glaringly missing here for me is the background information on Michael Thomas CS Rafferty. This man did not just turn up on April 8, 2009. IMO he planned and manipulated the abduction, rape and murder of an innocent child. And he found the perfect "dupe" to help him carry it out. It has been aluded to that his attorney was able to successfully argue some possibly pertinent information be excluded from this trial and the eyes of the jury. I will never understand this but it is our justice system and we have to adapt to it. He did not testify in his own defense likely to keep this information from the jury. Why? I am anticipating reading about these legal arguments when the jury goes into deliberations but we still will not likely have a full picture of who this man really is. I do not believe that he hasn't done something to some child at some point prior to this.

This drug debt theory is desperate at best to try and excuse his behaviour and shift all of the blame to his accomplice IMO. CM was an aging and sickly ex stripper who had a prescription for Oxycontin because of her medical problems. She obviously sold off some of that prescription to people she trusted to help make ends meet and probably to help fuel her addiction to alcohol, but to suggest that she was a low level "dealer" in the drug trade is ridiculous to me. I understand that JG may have visited her on several occasions after this abduction, so obviously she didn't have a problem with him if that is the case.

I am confident that LE have backed up as much of TLM's story as they possibly could considering that MR was out and about destroying evidence from the very first moments after this crime and for the next six weeks until his arrest. His refusal to assist LE in any way to help solve this crime 3 years ago and get to the "truth" indicates to me that he is 100 percent involved and just as guilty as his co-conspirator in the end result. But personally, I believe he is more at fault for it happening in the first place. If TLM really wanted to "grab someone off the street and kill them", she had plenty of opportunity to do that all on her own. She didn't need him. If MR wanted to rape a child, he needed someone to help lure one. Unfortunately he found someone who would do anything for a little bit of love.

MOO

I agree 100% with: The only thing that is glaringly missing here for me is the background information on Michael Thomas CS Rafferty. This man did not just turn up on April 8, 2009 !!
What do we really know about him? Next to nothing. His background is a big missing peace in the puzzle. MOO

 

[Kamille]

With the references to the EOA gang, I don't think Derstine was intimating the drug debt was to CM, but more likely to a member of the EOA gang or drug distribution network.

I remember TLM had a best buddy in jail, who was a member of EOA. I believe the woman's father was a founder of the gang. She was the one that TLM wrote all those .........murderous *****es.........letters to.

Derstine really didn't connect the dots on the drug debt theory though.

Either there is nothing there...........or people involved weren't interested in making their lifestyle public.

JMO

If there was anything to that, they would have been supoena'd to the court to testify under oath their involvement in this. There is nothing there. It is another red herring to introduce doubt. TLM met this girl in detention, she did not hang out with her in real life. They lived in different cities, hence the stupid "one up" letters they wrote back and forth. And those letters and that contact was a year before this abduction. Derstine could not produce one other piece of evidence, a facebook post, cell calls between them, to prove that they'd even been in contact since then.

And while we're on the topic of what Derstine didn't introduce, he suggested the conversation that TLM had with her godmother in his cross to her. This was hearsay that he did not back up with proof of context. This is very telling to me. Obviously the godmother is the aunt who also had visitation priviledges with TLM at Genest and probably since her incarceration after her guilty plea. Their conversation was not recorded at Genest if they had it there but it was probably more likely at her current institution. But I'm sure she was interviewed by LE regarding their visit(s) and that interview and the conversation was in the discovery. And as I suspected, the context of that conversation was completely eliminated from Derstine's cross. I absolutely believe that TLM was telling her aunt how horrible she was feeling about what she had done and how horrible she was feeling that she still felt these feelings of rage and could kill again. She also confessed to the dog incident because it had probably always tormented her. She was crying out for help IMO.

If she had been bragging about her deeds to her aunt/godmother, revelling in the fact that she could do this again no problem, then you can bet that Derstine would have called her to the stand to tell the jury just how demented TLM really was.

So I've just given three examples of evidence that Derstine could have provided to back up the theory that this was all TLM. And he didn't. I don't think he is a negligent attorney, but that evidence just does not exist.

MOO

 

[Yody04]

You could be absolutly right... But it should be also noted that even Victoria's father still feels he has not got the whole truth. This comes loud and clear in his last interview. Though I too, trust the crown... it would be my desire that all if not most of the actual "truth" were brought forward for the jury's consideration. Maybe, just maybe, what is giving me the hardest time in this whole process has been that I watched from the start. Read numerous articles and watched each and everyday the noon hour pressers... while we all hoped beyond hope that little Victoria would come home. There is still huge holes in this trial and a whole lot of missing information that the jury has not been given. All of that is to say... I'm just not convinced on the sexual assult. That is not to say that I don't feel that MR shouldn't spend the rest of is life in jail for his part in what happened - because I do. I feel similar to Rodney... I'd like the whole truth - for Victoria's sake.... afterall she is the one who paid the ultimate price !

I couldn't agree more. No matter how I turn the story it just doesn't make any sence. To me the most confusing things are the stops they made on their road trip. Tim Hortons? Really? Everybody knows what kind of a busy place that is. With a kidnapped child in the car? Who else would take that risk? Was it really a planned murder? If planned would you not have the weapon already?
I don't believe in the drug dept theory because TLM and MTR didn't win anything. At least we don't know.... did they receive money, drugs or whatever? As long as we don't know that this drug dept theory doesn't make any sence to me. Lord this case is a mystery. Of course only moo.

 

[JayFriend]

Lots of people have debt. Some have credit card, lines of credit, & some have illegal debt. Totally irrelevant in this case. JMO

Legitimate monetary debt can lead to harassment, loss of property, perhaps bankruptcy, but it's all legal. Drug debt is much more serious because it could lead to all kinds of criminal repercussions.

 

[myzzy]

is there a statement of facts from MR or will there be one ? Or is the trial considered it.

I guess im wondering is anything formally given to the judge or other attorney stating MR side of events and versions ?

 

[Kamille]

I couldn't agree more. No matter how I turn the story it just doesn't make any sence. To me the most confusing things are the stops they made on their road trip. Tim Hortons? Really? Everybody knows what kind of a busy place that is. With a kidnapped child in the car? Who else would take that risk? Was it really a planned murder? If planned would you not have the weapon already?
I don't believe in the drug dept theory because TLM and MTR didn't win anything. At least we don't know.... did they receive money, drugs or whatever? As long as we don't know that this drug dept theory doesn't make any sence to me. Lord this case is a mystery. Of course only moo.

Have you ever been to a Tim Hortons at 4:18pm? It's actually incredibly quiet most of the time. Most people associate them with being busy at the times that they are there. Which is usually in the morning and around lunch time/early afternoon. In the mid-late afternoon, early evening they are actually quite empty.

And I don't think this was a planned murder at all. It was an attempted abduction for sexual purposes that just happened to be successful. Problem was that once they had the child they "couldn't keep her and couldn't take her back".

MOO

 

[Jezbel]

I feel as though my brain has grown in knowledge in all I've learned with this trial. I always wanted to take the drive to London to attend court just to see the inner workings of the proceedings. But I didn't feel appropriate to be among Victoria's family.

Quite a few members of the public have attended the trial, there are some that are there most everyday. The family from what I can tell appreciates all the support from the public, I have never seen Rodney or his family snub anyone who has come up to them. It is really interesting, if it's not to far take a drive down to hear the closings or the judges charge.

 

[Jezbel]

Come on down, Dmman! We Londoners aren't that scary!

I haven't stopped in either, but it isn't for the same reasons as you. I work during the day, and the court schedule and jury participation has been a bit unpredictable. It just hasn't worked well with my work schedule. I had thought of popping in during the defense, but it was over before I knew it!

See you there Friday?

I was there for a bit of the defense's case, you didn't miss much!

Haha and no we aren't that scary