The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[JayFriend]

The $400 worth of pills that JG ripped off likely didn't belong to the street dealer.........but the dealer was the middle man and would have owed the money to someone else. The people higher up don't want to listen to the street dealers tale of woe about being ripped off. They hear that nonsense all the time. They want their money.

I also doubt that a street dealer would give someone $400 worth of pills on an IOU.

It doesn't work that way. Most likely JG stole the pills from someone........JMO.

I don't know if it has anything to do with the abduction.......but I thought TM's response was a little bit casual, considering what kind of business it is.

Oh yea.......my boyfriend ripped off someone for pills...........isn't a great thing to say.

JMO

I still think it could have been something as simple as a stud fee.

 

[Yody04]

Have you ever been to a Tim Hortons at 4:18pm? It's actually incredibly quiet most of the time. Most people associate them with being busy at the times that they are there. Which is usually in the morning and around lunch time/early afternoon. In the mid-late afternoon, early evening they are actually quite empty.

And I don't think this was a planned murder at all. It was an attempted abduction for sexual purposes that just happened to be successful. Problem was that once they had the child they "couldn't keep her and couldn't take her back".

MOO

You might be right. And why a hammer, I guess we know that from TLM's violent visions.
Another thing I don't get is the knife. Why just getting rid of the blade and not the whole thing like the hammer? And why did he keep a hammer and garbage bags in his car even that this ones didn't have anything to do with the crime? Was he really so naive to think he is never getting caught? Did he already plan something new? Does anybody understand what I am talking about? Everyday just more and more questions.

 

[Jezbel]

I would try for Monday I think. I would love to feel the positive energy that the crown's closing will bring! But I would like a seat in the overflow room I think. Has anyone reported on how good/bad audio/video is in there? I have to convince my husband to rearrange his work schedule that day first!

Sorry if this has been answered, the audio has been good in the overflow room lately - there was quite a few technical hitches in the beginning but no problems as of lately, you can hear pretty good. There is a camera pointed directly at MR so you can see him close up the whole time. The other camera is a wide angle shot of the courtroom, you can't see faces really just people and layout. If it's MR's reaction (or lack thereof) to the crowns closing you are interested in, the overflow room is the best way to see that.

JMO

 

[Alison]

I'm pretty sure to begin with Tara, James and others attending court every day are not employed. Maybe it can be considered that Rafferty's family are all gainfully employed? Have you even considered it might be too much for his mother and brothers to take two months leave of absence from their jobs?

There may be other challenges, like long distances, etc. It is an assumption that he is without their support because they are not physically there. JMO

Understandable, but as a parent who believed my child was innocent, I would sell my house and virtually become homeless in my efforts to see my child set free. I would risk everything to ensure that my child was not wrongfully convicted. Also taking a day off here or there I am sure would be allowed by their employer,considering the circumstances, so IMO being employed is not a reasonable excuse for not even once appearing in court.

 

[JayFriend]

if the verdict comes back guilty on all charges this story and all involved will be blown wide open on appeal and we know that there will be an appeal...then the dirt will hit the fan...JMO I said weeks ago that there is a dark cloud hanging over some players in this and I still think that to be true...JMO I bet there are fingernails bitten down to the quick as we speak..JMO

If the verdict is guilty on all charges and there is an appeal, who pays for MTR's representation? Legal Aid has limited resources. Once he's an inmate, is the taxpayer on the hook to pay for the big guns?

 

[Dmman]

Are the "half undressed" facts like the elephant in the room that some are trying to ignore so the focus can be put on drugs - for which there is no evidence?

Great statement (question)!

 

[Alison]

I don't believe TLM intended any harm come to VS that day.

I think she thought everything would be resolved, without any harm coming to VS.

For some reason, things escalated and TLM knew she was going to go to jail for a long time.

She had just been released from custody after serving 14 months for stabbing someone. She was on probation. No doubt about it.........she was going to jail with no chance at obtaining bail.

She also knew she would only be housed in the juvenile detention center until she reached the age of 18, and then would be transferred to a women's prison.
With all of this going through her head, she became enraged and that is when she killed VS.

What MR knew.............or how he became involved.........or what he did......

I will leave up to the jury and be glad I don't have to be the one to decide.

JMO............

That is incorrect. She would have been able to stay in the youth facility until the age of 20 then transferred over, which at that time she probably would have been able to be released. While we all understand that you can be charged as a youth until the age of 18, persons who are charged before they are 18 have the right to reside in a youth facility until the age of 20 because they were charged as a youth.

 

[OhSoCurious]

Are the "half undressed" facts like the elephant in the room that some are trying to ignore so the focus can be put on drugs - for which there is no evidence?

This could easily be explained by TLM having sick, violent, brutal fantasies all her life. Her journal was just a quick example of her bent desires. She could have easily set that scene up to throw a kink in the investigation or heaven forbid actually assaulted poor Tori herself. It's too easy to accept him doing this simply because she was found without pants. It's also not credible due to his past with mature women.

This drug debt theory is not desperate at best, rather it is the most prevalent componenet in this case. I would venture to say that drugs and getting that escort out there for more cash is ALL that was on Rafferty's mind all day long. All of a sudden TLM brings a child into the story and things go horribly wrong for Rafferty's day.

Saying that Rafferty just popped up April 8th and no one can find history or mention of him is also not true. Witnesses did mention going to school with him, etc. If you're looking for some rap sheet as long as TLM's, it's not there. He has no past record.

 

[antiquegirl]

You might be right. And why a hammer, I guess we know that from TLM's violent visions.
Another thing I don't get is the knife. Why just getting rid of the blade and not the whole thing like the hammer? And why did he keep a hammer and garbage bags in his car even that this ones didn't have anything to do with the crime? Was he really so naive to think he is never getting caught? Did he already plan something new? Does anybody understand what I am talking about? Everyday just more and more questions.

(RSBM)

Because blades get dull and are replaceable. There was no need to get rid of the handle because it wasn't used for anything on April 8, 2009. According to the testimony of at least two Crown witnesses, the back bench was already gone by that date and TLM was lying about using it to cut out portions of it. No DNA or other evidence was found on the knife handle.

JMO!

 

[antiquegirl]

Understandable, but as a parent who believed my child was innocent, I would sell my house and virtually become homeless in my efforts to see my child set free. I would risk everything to ensure that my child was not wrongfully convicted. Also taking a day off here or there I am sure would be allowed by their employer,considering the circumstances, so IMO being employed is not a reasonable excuse for not even once appearing in court.

(a) Everyone is different and acts differently under similar circumstances.

(b) It really doesn't matter whether or not MTR's family believes in his innocence or guilt. It's what the jury believes that counts.

JMO

 

[snoofer]

You could be absolutly right... But it should be also noted that even Victoria's father still feels he has not got the whole truth. This comes loud and clear in his last interview. Though I too, trust the crown... it would be my desire that all if not most of the actual "truth" were brought forward for the jury's consideration. Maybe, just maybe, what is giving me the hardest time in this whole process has been that I watched from the start. Read numerous articles and watched each and everyday the noon hour pressers... while we all hoped beyond hope that little Victoria would come home. There is still huge holes in this trial and a whole lot of missing information that the jury has not been given. All of that is to say... I'm just not convinced on the sexual assult. That is not to say that I don't feel that MR shouldn't spend the rest of is life in jail for his part in what happened - because I do. I feel similar to Rodney... I'd like the whole truth - for Victoria's sake.... afterall she is the one who paid the ultimate price !

MTR and TLM travelled in that neighbourhood. It was a neighbourhood laden with drug addiction. Killers in general such as they are known to abuse drugs, it is one of the profile characteristics. Killers such as that usually pick a victim within their community at random. It is not surprising in the least that the victim TS also had a family member with a drug problem because that was the nature of the community with which the victim and the perpetrators lived and frequented. Without even looking, I can BET the victim profile of such a crime would state this. To me this case is classic to this rare crime. MOO Any info being suppressed is either being surpressed because

a. the judge has asked it to be for legal reasons at least temporarily

b. other ongoing investigations

c. it is family matter; and not the general publics business

I DO think it unfair that RS has not had any and all answers given to him. But I do think LE/crown has to protect the integrity of the trial or any investigations. I do believe that LE has left no stone unturned, and would follow any info recieved as far as the trail would lead. Sadly RS, is hurting in oh so many ways. THIS is not fair. RS and LE are on the same side. And I believe LE will pull as much justice as they possibly can out of this mess for both TS and her family. MOO

 

[Tahorn]

So LE and expert witnesses were lying? Oh my that is horrible. I didn't think they had an ulterior motive. Did I miss something?

Grandmama's testimony was full of conflicting claims though. Sorry but I fail to see her testimony as truthful as she was reliable. MOO

If Grandmama drove past TLM and Tori, why didn't we see her vehicle in the video. One would think it would have been captured. There are only three vehicles in this video. One belonging to MR heading south and pulling into CCNH, the second one is a green van heading south on Fyfe Ave. and then a quick glimpse of a lighter coloured vehicle at 13:04 but at this point, TLM and Tori are already into the CCNH parking lot out of sight from anyone passing heading North on Fyfe Ave. HTH and MOO.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/26/19684816.html

No disrespected to the expert witnesses but professional reputation is an ulterior motive, not saying that anyone lied just that grandma had nothing to gain ...

 

[OhSoCurious]

(a) Everyone is different and acts differently under similar circumstances.

(b) It really doesn't matter whether or not MTR's family believes in his innocence or guilt. It's what the jury believes that counts.

JMO

Why consider the selling of a home? It won't buy better defence or sway the jury by sitting there in court all day/every day? JMO

An analogy to consider could be going to church. Do you have to go every Sunday to the building to support and respect? No. JMO

 

[Dmman]

This could easily be explained by TLM having sick, violent, brutal fantasies all her life. Her journal was just a quick example of her bent desires. She could have easily set that scene up to throw a kink in the investigation or heaven forbid actually assaulted poor Tori herself. It's too easy to accept him doing this simply because she was found without pants. It's also not credible due to his past with mature women.

This drug debt theory is not desperate at best, rather it is the most prevalent componenet in this case. I would venture to say that drugs and getting that escort out there for more cash is ALL that was on Rafferty's mind all day long. All of a sudden TLM brings a child into the story and things go horribly wrong for Rafferty's day.

Saying that Rafferty just popped up April 8th and no one can find history or mention of him is also not true. Witnesses did mention going to school with him, etc. If you're looking for some rap sheet as long as TLM's, it's not there. He has no past record.

I don't believe for one second that TLM had the smarts to foresee the future & throw kinks into the investigation. Smyth pretty much only had to offer her a smoke for a confession! I believe 100% that any getting rid of evidence was thought of by MR. IMO, Tori's pants were discarded because MR knew for certain his DNA was all over them!!!

 

[Alison]

I absolutely HATE HATE driving by the meth clinic when it is in service ( only open certain times) in down town London. there is probably 2 or 3 dozen people standing around the meth clinic and its scary just driving past. I would never ever try and cross the "typical meth head". I would watch my back if I ever crossed one of them

Snipped for berivity,
there is a difference between a methadone user and a "meth head". A meth head is a crystal meth user.... BIG difference between the two. This is not the first time I have seen someome make this mistake between the two. Someone described crystal meth signs and symptoms earlier as Oxy signs and symptoms.
People using methadone are not actually getting high, it is something they use to negate withdrawl sypmtoms because opiate abuse can cause serious illness and or even death.
People using methadone are typically trying to stay clean and I must reinforce not high after they have their "drink".
http://www.camh.net/Care_Treatment/...aintenance_Treatment/mmt_clienthndbk_ch1.html

I do not judge drug users. Many people abuse drugs and alcohol for many various reasons. Sometimes it is to self medicate, sometimes it is to hide from pain.
People speak of TM being charged after VS's murder. Well all I can say is if something happened to one of my children I am not sure how I would pull through. Would I abuse drugs or alcohol? I am not sure. Would I be more like RS and try to promote awareness? I sure hope I would. However we can not judge as we are not these people who abuse and use these substances because we have not walked a mile in their shoes.

 

[OhSoCurious]

I don't believe for one second that TLM had the smarts to foresee the future & throw kinks into the investigation. Smyth pretty much only had to offer her a smoke for a confession! I believe 100% that any getting rid of evidence was thought of by MR. IMO, Tori's pants were discarded because MR knew for certain his DNA was all over them!!!

Respectfully ... AND THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO BELIEVE. You bought it. We will see if the jury has different perception and comprehension. And you are entitled to your opinion and synopsis as I am entitled to mine. JMO

 

[Alison]

(a) Everyone is different and acts differently under similar circumstances.

(b) It really doesn't matter whether or not MTR's family believes in his innocence or guilt. It's what the jury believes that counts.JMO

I am well aware of who decides the outcome to the trial.
I was merely responding to an ongoing discussion. I feelthat having no known support in the courtroom says a lot. If he asked his parents to stay away I am sure the defence would have pointed that out when asked about family in the courtroom JMO.

 

[Kamille]

(RSBM)

Because blades get dull and are replaceable. There was no need to get rid of the handle because it wasn't used for anything on April 8, 2009. According to the testimony of at least two Crown witnesses, the back bench was already gone by that date and TLM was lying about using it to cut out portions of it. No DNA or other evidence was found on the knife handle.

JMO!

Well not exactly. One witness testified it was out a month before easter (Mar 12th). Another testified it was in on Mar 23rd. Another testified it was being removed Mar 29th to work on speakers, although his memory was a little dodgy about that. So I don't think anything regarding the seat can be taken as fact. Perhaps he did move it in and out working on his speakers...who knows. And of course multiple witnesses spoke of the seat's final destination to the curb on April 15th.

And there was evidence of a piece of that seat, cut with a blade of some type, found on the floor of his car six weeks after the fact. And the piece had evidence of blood on it.

MOO

 

[Alison]

Why consider the selling of a home? It won't buy better defence or sway the jury by sitting there in court all day/every day? JMO

An analogy to consider could be going to church. Do you have to go every Sunday to the building to support and respect? No. JMO

Why would I sell my home? To ensure that I could go each and every day to support my child. To have funds I could to funnel into their defence (perhaps hiring outside sources such as PI's). That is what I would do. If I believed in my childs innocents I would reduce myself to nothing to do what I could to ensure their freedom. However one parents love and devotion can different I guess... but I bet if there was a survey the majority of us would do what we could for our children if we believed they were innocent JMO.

 

[antiquegirl]

I don't think we know that TM was the prime focus of LE on April 11. That was only day 3 of Tori's disappearance and LE was still trying to identify the woman in the video. Regardless, the witness did not know who the woman was, so all she could say was that she assumed the woman was the child's mother. In which case, when it should have been all fresh in her mind, why would she not say "and I saw the same woman enter the school just a few minutes before I saw her with Tori up the street"?

JMO

(RSBM)

You're right, Billy, we don't know that as a verifiable fact. But I think it's a safe assumption. It is well-known that immediate family are always the first suspects in a domestic crime. JG had quite a rap sheet, TLM was a known drug user, Tori wasn't reported for two hours (and then by her grandmother), TM had dark hair and a white jacket, there were no witnesses to her whereabouts at that time, her own ex-husband suspected her involvement, she was given a polygraph test, etc. Tori seemed to go willingly and cheerfully, LE didn't issue an Amber Alert for these very reasons.

TM herself said in a presser that LE told her she was their #1 suspect. This suspicion didn't begin weeks after the abduction, but right at the get-go. And I don't believe that she ceased being a suspect until after TLM confessed.

The witness notified LE that she was in the school parking lot after seeing the CASS video and talked to them two days later. She was probably nervous as heck. I'm guessing LE asked her what she saw. She answered she saw a woman in a white jacket on school property and then the same woman walking up Fyfe with a happy little girl - just like in the video. Describes the woman's clothing. Tells them she thought the woman was the child's mother. LE thinks, "Ah! TM, as we suspected!". Thank you, Mrs. X. That will be all.

I can totally see that as the way the first interview went down, but it's simply MOO. Considering that she has no horse in this race and that she testified reluctantly, I find her perfectly credible.

JMO

London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP
Parents were asked at school to watch video the day after

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court /
She saw the CASS video, recognized the woman in white, and notified the police.

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court /
She says she spoke to police "within a week".

London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP
Grandmom said she got more than a "fleeting look" at white coat woman - said she thought it was Tori's mom

Carnegie also stated to the woman “you didn’t tell Police during questioning on April 11thabout the woman in the white jacket entering the school?”
The woman replied “They didn’t ask”.

http://www.1047.ca/local-news/michael-rafferty-trial

I also find it believable that there were no other witnesses who saw TLM in the school. It was a crazy, busy time when hundreds of students were being let out. Teachers were either in their classes closing up shop, or assisting some of the kids with getting onto the buses. TLM could have hidden herself in an empty classroom or just blended in with the other parents. It was a perfect time to be invisible.

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
Nearby teachers were helping students get on the bus. Witness says the woman in white went in the front door.

And IF one teacher saw a stranger, didn't attach any significance to it until after Tori went missing, would she admit it? The video was already out there. That she didn't take action and confront this stranger could very well cost her her job. It's a possibility, IMO.

ALL OF THIS IS MOO!