The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[Yody04]

If the kidnapping was planned the comment, "We can't keep her and we can't take her back" would be redundant ... however it was true that MR was not aware until after the kidnapping had already committed then the comment "We can't keep her and we can't take her back" would make sense.

So you think that the whole kidnapping thing was only TLM's idea?

 

[crazyladi]

Isnt Meth Head a term for Methamphetamine users not methadone users.

yes. Did I type the opposite? Sorry my computer has been freezing and I might have mistyped something somewhere

 

[crazyladi]

This to me doesn't make any sence either. "We can't keep her and we can't take her back" should have been already in their minds when they were planning this whole damned thing. Did this never appear to these crazy people that this would be a problem at the end?
And what has the age to do with that?

I really think they found out who's child she was and that was a problem. JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

This to me doesn't make any sence either. "We can't keep her and we can't take her back" should have been already in their minds when they were planning this whole damned thing. Did this never appear to these crazy people that this would be a problem at the end?
And what has the age to do with that?

A younger child would not necessarily have the same perception / observation skills to be able to identify the offenders. JMO

 

[crazyladi]

That's right and it seemed MTR took out and put his seat back in often, so we can only go by the fabric and TLM testimony--who was the witness that saw the seat closest to April 8, anyone remember?

Plus the tweet said that the forensics person said something along the lines that it was a match to a back seat but I dont think they could confirm his back seat because it wasnt there?? Sorry I really have to go back and look. I know there was DNA evidence on that piece and there was mention of it being cut out by the forensics. Sorry I cant quote the fact until I get home later.

 

[Flowercb]

I really think they found out who's child she was and that was a problem. JMO

Anybody's child would not have been able to be returned safely to their parents. The child would have given descriptions of everything and DNA would have been present. They knew that their plan would have included murder.

TLM didn't know she was going to be successful that day so that is why they purchased the hammer, bags at the last moment.

 

[Flowercb]

Plus the tweet said that the forensics person said something along the lines that it was a match to a back seat but I dont think they could confirm his back seat because it wasnt there?? Sorry I really have to go back and look. I know there was DNA evidence on that piece and there was mention of it being cut out by the forensics. Sorry I cant quote the fact until I get home later.

Tell your boss you have to go do your CSI work, lol. I would be suffering if I couldn't check websleuths during the day.

 

[giantalkinghead]

Respect to your opinion must definitely.

Nobody had to sell me anything...I just simply wouldn't buy into any theory that TLM, who was an IV drug addict, had little education, was raised by a guardian who was of the worst kind, had the intelligence to scheme to create a crime scene that made it appear Tori was taken for a sexual assault...AND crossed her fingers that 103 days would lapse so that the crime scene would be too decomposed for DNA analysis.

I wouldn't have thought of that theory if I lived for another 100 years!

But to my understanding... correct me if I'm wrong here ( now, I know there are those that will leap all over that statement LOL )

But, it is my understanding that TLM would have had access to the Crown's facts through the discovery portion of her own trial. So she could have possibly cooked up some of the her story on the stand against Rafferty to match what the Crown had as evidence. NO ??? MOO

 

[justicefortori]

That a very respectful position to take. I think that's one of the reasons the role of talking heads bothers me ... it's entirely voyeuristic, like unveiling someone's pain and then dissecting it. It's my understanding that the prosecutor has to get inside the head of the murderer (accused, suspect) and think like they do in order to fully piece together what happened. It's an ugly place to be. I also think that many prosecutors are eventually consumed by their work ... especially after peering into the minds of criminals (murderers, rapist) for decades at the same time as understanding the family and how they process their loss. I attended a murder trial once - one day. That was enough for me to get an understanding of the sombre, sad, serious, slow, methodical atmosphere and process necessary to build and present a case against an accused.

One thing I learned - an image that has remained in my memory - is that the accused sat in a chair, elevated on a platform, in front of the judge. In US trials, the accused is always sitting next to the lawyer, so this was different. I do wonder if anyone has attended this trial and where MR is sitting.

I too, have followed this case from the minute the breaking news came on my tv on April 9th, 2009, the day after Tori was taken. I have read much of these posts as well, though I have never posted. This case has pretty much taken over my life for the past three years, as im sure it has with most of you as well. I have travelled from Toronto to London three times thus far, to watch justice for Victoria first hand. I can say that a lot of what is said in that courtroom, is not neccisarily reported by the media. They are scrambling to jot down everything that is being said, and I believe they report the main points rather then every little detail. Rafferty sits in the prisoners box along the right side of the courtroom. There was discussion previous to his trial as to whether he would be able to sit with his lawyers as you mentioned, but was denied. His lawyers occasionally walk over to the box to speak with him, thats about it.

IMHO, I do believe TS knew TLM by passing.... they lived right around the corner from each other. It would have made TS feel that much more comfortable walking away with TLM. I know "of" people, not necisarrily "KNOW" them, and I see them around with their children, friends of friends have talked about them, etc. I find it very hard to believe that TLM knew both TM and JG but didnt know who their children were. Again, JMO. But I dont think TS was chosen over a drug debt.. JMO... Maybe TS did see TLM with her dog... Maybe when MTR told TLM to talk about candy or DOGS, TS came into TLMs mind? TLM also knew TM and JG's history... maybe she thought TS was an easy target, and already knew she loved dogs.. and knew TS would have a better chance walking away with her then a random child? JMO...


Sorry for the long post, Ive been reading for so long and never had the courage to say my own opinions.

 

[Sillybilly]

Just to point out something. Women tend to write in journals while men do not in most cases. To me that might be why we cant find anything about his thoughts or feelings because he actually said them to people and bbm them...But those are all just "hear say" and you cant track any connversations through BBM that I am aware of. She was just caught because she wrote these things down, he wasnt because he actually verbalized how he felt.

Toocloseforcomfort let us see a text he sent her and that showed how aggressive he was and wanted to slapped and what not.

So I am just stating just because she wrote down her nasty disturbed thoughts doesnt mean that MTR didnt have the same ones and ones that cant be traced or hear say. JMO

Also, TLM had seen numerous counsellors/therapists in the past, and they will frequently tell clients to write down their feelings in journals.

WRT to the text(s?) from MTR to Toocloseforcomfort, i wonder if MTR is found guilty, if those can then be brought into pre-sentencing reports.

 

[giantalkinghead]

I too, have followed this case from the minute the breaking news came on my tv on April 9th, 2009, the day after Tori was taken. I have read much of these posts as well, though I have never posted. This case has pretty much taken over my life for the past three years, as im sure it has with most of you as well. I have travelled from Toronto to London three times thus far, to watch justice for Victoria first hand. I can say that a lot of what is said in that courtroom, is not neccisarily reported by the media. They are scrambling to jot down everything that is being said, and I believe they report the main points rather then every little detail. Rafferty sits in the prisoners box along the right side of the courtroom. There was discussion previous to his trial as to whether he would be able to sit with his lawyers as you mentioned, but was denied. His lawyers occasionally walk over to the box to speak with him, thats about it.

IMHO, I do believe TS knew TLM by passing.... they lived right around the corner from each other. It would have made TS feel that much more comfortable walking away with TLM. I know "of" people, not necisarrily "KNOW" them, and I see them around with their children, friends of friends have talked about them, etc. I find it very hard to believe that TLM knew both TM and JG but didnt know who their children were. Again, JMO. But I dont think TS was chosen over a drug debt.. JMO... Maybe TS did see TLM with her dog... Maybe when MTR told TLM to talk about candy or DOGS, TS came into TLMs mind? TLM also knew TM and JG's history... maybe she thought TS was an easy target, and already knew she loved dogs.. and knew TS would have a better chance walking away with her then a random child? JMO...


Sorry for the long post, Ive been reading for so long and never had the courage to say my own opinions.

Interesting opinions ! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. <modsnip>... LOL but, you are entitled to your own opinion !

 

[tmhco]

Just for the record, the "story" I bought was the one that included eyewitness testimony backed by corroborating evidence. JMO

 

[Yody04]

A younger child would not necessarily have the same perception / observation skills to be able to identify the offenders. JMO

just saying, my son is four and you would be surprised how many details he remembers of everything. moo

 

[Alethea Dice]

I don't think we know that TM was the prime focus of LE on April 11. That was only day 3 of Tori's disappearance and LE was still trying to identify the woman in the video. Regardless, the witness did not know who the woman was, so all she could say was that she assumed the woman was the child's mother. In which case, when it should have been all fresh in her mind, why would she not say "and I saw the same woman enter the school just a few minutes before I saw her with Tori up the street"?

JMO

Respectfully, it was common knowledge at the time. Tara certainly felt that way and LE didn't seem to deny it.

While Fraser wouldn't address when police began to focus on Rafferty and McClintic, he said investigators followed "every imaginable lead," including the more than 4,000 tips received since Tori's April 8 disappearance. Because of the "mystery" of Tori's disappearance, Fraser said officers had no choice but to treat "everyone and everything as suspect . . . until we know otherwise."

"We had to investigate every possibility," he said. Tara McDonald, Tori's grieving mother, lashed

out at investigators Friday for treating her as a suspect during the 42-day investigation into her daughter's abduction. McDonald told reporters that one investigator said she was the "prime suspect" in Tori's disappearance. Echoing comments made by Const. Laurie-Anne Maitland, the principal spokesperson for the joint OPP-OCPS investigation, Fraser said McDonald could register a formal complaint about an individual officer or a police department if she "feels mistreated."

"I feel that . . . our officers have done an exceptional job and were looking to bring Tori home, whatever it took," Fraser said.

http://http://www.intelligencer.ca/PrintArticle.aspx?e=1583270

 

[justicefortori]

If TLM was babysitting Tori, there is absolutley no logical explanation as to why MTR didnt park in the waiting area that all parents/gaurdians park while waiting for their children to exit the school. There is no logical explantion as to why he drove past them on Fyfe, and did not stop to pick them up. IMO....

IMO, the defense is trying to pull the wool over the jurys eyes, and IMO I dont think they will go for it. The crowns versions of events have ALL been backed by evidence, from the hair dye to the spot of TS's blood mixed with semen.

I understand that the defense does not have to prove MTR's innocence. But you would think that with all of the evidence pointing to MTR, Derstine would have something a little more then his only witness to show reasonable doubt. IMO... and I think the jury will see it that way too.

 

[justicefortori]

If TLM was babysitting Tori, there is absolutley no logical explanation as to why MTR didnt park in the waiting area that all parents/gaurdians park while waiting for their children to exit the school. There is no logical explantion as to why he drove past them on Fyfe, and did not stop to pick them up. IMO....

IMO, the defense is trying to pull the wool over the jurys eyes, and IMO I dont think they will go for it. The crowns versions of events have ALL been backed by evidence, from the hair dye to the spot of TS's blood mixed with semen.

I understand that the defense does not have to prove MTR's innocence. But you would think that with all of the evidence pointing to MTR, Derstine would have something a little more then his only witness to show reasonable doubt. IMO... and I think the jury will see it that way too.

 

[Yody04]

A younger child would not necessarily have the same perception / observation skills to be able to identify the offenders. JMO

just saying, my son is four and you would be surprised how many details he remembers of everything. moo

 

[crazyladi]

Tell your boss you have to go do your CSI work, lol. I would be suffering if I couldn't check websleuths during the day.

Tell me about it!!!! LOL really surprised they havent tracked my computer to see where I have been and blocked this site from me LOL... We have certain sites blocked so sometimes I cant get the information I am looking for to back up my posts. I have to wait to get home and by the time I can get on the computer I get the look from my husband lol... The "like serious" look bahaahahahaah and I am like, "ya I am serious, we all need justice for Tori" LOL... He will be glad when this trial is over I am sure.

Even my friend has been on this case but not on this board and when I call her and her husband picks up, he gets so bothered that we call each other to talk about it LOL...

 

[Tahorn]

So you think that the whole kidnapping thing was only TLM's idea?

I don’t know what to believe. For me this case has too many alternative theories to know without reasonable doubt one way or the other.

 

[Yody04]

A younger child would not necessarily have the same perception / observation skills to be able to identify the offenders. JMO

Disagree. You would be surprised how many details a four year old already remembers. mo