The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[Jezbel]

(RSBM)

Because blades get dull and are replaceable. There was no need to get rid of the handle because it wasn't used for anything on April 8, 2009. According to the testimony of at least two Crown witnesses, the back bench was already gone by that date and TLM was lying about using it to cut out portions of it. No DNA or other evidence was found on the knife handle.

JMO!

If indeed he did not put the seat back into his car, how are we to explain the cut piece of fabric found in his car that was tested and found to be from a car seat?

He was seen taking the bench out, but we don't know that it wasn't put back in prior to April 8th.

 

[Kamille]

I don't believe for one second that TLM had the smarts to foresee the future & throw kinks into the investigation. Smyth pretty much only had to offer her a smoke for a confession! I believe 100% that any getting rid of evidence was thought of by MR. IMO, Tori's pants were discarded because MR knew for certain his DNA was all over them!!!

Actually Tori wasn't wearing pants. She was wearing knit tights and a skirt. I think they were disposed of because I can't imagine them trying to put tights back on to a lifeless body. Nor did they really care to. It was a quick cleanup and out of there IMO. They had lots of garbage bags to load up with evidence and discard of it.

MOO

 

[Dmman]

Respectfully ... AND THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO BELIEVE. You bought it. We will see if the jury has different perception and comprehension. And you are entitled to your opinion and synopsis as I am entitled to mine. JMO

Respect to your opinion must definitely.

Nobody had to sell me anything...I just simply wouldn't buy into any theory that TLM, who was an IV drug addict, had little education, was raised by a guardian who was of the worst kind, had the intelligence to scheme to create a crime scene that made it appear Tori was taken for a sexual assault...AND crossed her fingers that 103 days would lapse so that the crime scene would be too decomposed for DNA analysis.

I wouldn't have thought of that theory if I lived for another 100 years!

 

[Dmman]

Actually Tori wasn't wearing pants. She was wearing knit tights and a skirt. I think they were disposed of because I can't imagine them trying to put tights back on to a lifeless body. Nor did they really care to. It was a quick cleanup and out of there IMO. They had lots of garbage bags to load up with evidence and discard of it.

MOO

My mistake. I meant pants in general (clothing below the waist). I would suck as a lawyer!

 

[Kamille]

This could easily be explained by TLM having sick, violent, brutal fantasies all her life. Her journal was just a quick example of her bent desires. She could have easily set that scene up to throw a kink in the investigation or heaven forbid actually assaulted poor Tori herself. It's too easy to accept him doing this simply because she was found without pants. It's also not credible due to his past with mature women.

This drug debt theory is not desperate at best, rather it is the most prevalent componenet in this case. I would venture to say that drugs and getting that escort out there for more cash is ALL that was on Rafferty's mind all day long. All of a sudden TLM brings a child into the story and things go horribly wrong for Rafferty's day.

Saying that Rafferty just popped up April 8th and no one can find history or mention of him is also not true. Witnesses did mention going to school with him, etc. If you're looking for some rap sheet as long as TLM's, it's not there. He has no past record.

It is more easily explained by the fact that there was a 28 yr old man there who apparently liked to have sex in his car.

The drug debt theory is not prevalent at all in this case. Not in the courtroom anyway. The defense couldn't prove a thing about it. Not one piece of evidence to sustain any minute part of it.

Witnesses from his past were only allowed to testify about driving around with MR in the area of the crime with a brief synopsis of their relationship to him. No one was permitted to testify about anything regarding his character and what they actually thought of him. And not one member of his family testified to it either. Because they didn't want to open up that door. Why?

He has no adult criminal record. That I will agree to. Doesn't mean anything because he was obviously leading a very criminal life.

MOO

 

[crazyladi]

This could easily be explained by TLM having sick, violent, brutal fantasies all her life. Her journal was just a quick example of her bent desires. She could have easily set that scene up to throw a kink in the investigation or heaven forbid actually assaulted poor Tori herself. It's too easy to accept him doing this simply because she was found without pants. It's also not credible due to his past with mature women.

This drug debt theory is not desperate at best, rather it is the most prevalent componenet in this case. I would venture to say that drugs and getting that escort out there for more cash is ALL that was on Rafferty's mind all day long. All of a sudden TLM brings a child into the story and things go horribly wrong for Rafferty's day.

Saying that Rafferty just popped up April 8th and no one can find history or mention of him is also not true. Witnesses did mention going to school with him, etc. If you're looking for some rap sheet as long as TLM's, it's not there. He has no past record.

Just to point out something. Women tend to write in journals while men do not in most cases. To me that might be why we cant find anything about his thoughts or feelings because he actually said them to people and bbm them...But those are all just "hear say" and you cant track any connversations through BBM that I am aware of. She was just caught because she wrote these things down, he wasnt because he actually verbalized how he felt.

Toocloseforcomfort let us see a text he sent her and that showed how aggressive he was and wanted to slapped and what not.

So I am just stating just because she wrote down her nasty disturbed thoughts doesnt mean that MTR didnt have the same ones and ones that cant be traced or hear say. JMO

 

[crazyladi]

(RSBM)

Because blades get dull and are replaceable. There was no need to get rid of the handle because it wasn't used for anything on April 8, 2009. According to the testimony of at least two Crown witnesses, the back bench was already gone by that date and TLM was lying about using it to cut out portions of it. No DNA or other evidence was found on the knife handle.

JMO!

Yet a piece of fabric from a back seat was found. I would have to go back and check the tweet about the DNA found and the fabric forensics when I get home.

 

[crazyladi]

Snipped for berivity,
there is a difference between a methadone user and a "meth head". A meth head is a crystal meth user.... BIG difference between the two. This is not the first time I have seen someome make this mistake between the two. Someone described crystal meth signs and symptoms earlier as Oxy signs and symptoms.
People using methadone are not actually getting high, it is something they use to negate withdrawl sypmtoms because opiate abuse can cause serious illness and or even death.
People using methadone are typically trying to stay clean and I must reinforce not high after they have their "drink".
http://www.camh.net/Care_Treatment/...aintenance_Treatment/mmt_clienthndbk_ch1.html

I do not judge drug users. Many people abuse drugs and alcohol for many various reasons. Sometimes it is to self medicate, sometimes it is to hide from pain.
People speak of TM being charged after VS's murder. Well all I can say is if something happened to one of my children I am not sure how I would pull through. Would I abuse drugs or alcohol? I am not sure. Would I be more like RS and try to promote awareness? I sure hope I would. However we can not judge as we are not these people who abuse and use these substances because we have not walked a mile in their shoes.

Totally agree. My aunt who lives in St Sault Marie is addicted to Oxy and goes to a methadone clinic. She is not a meth head, it is a form of treatment to get off the Oxy's to make the withdrawl easier

 

[crazyladi]

Snipped for berivity,
there is a difference between a methadone user and a "meth head". A meth head is a crystal meth user.... BIG difference between the two. This is not the first time I have seen someome make this mistake between the two. Someone described crystal meth signs and symptoms earlier as Oxy signs and symptoms.
People using methadone are not actually getting high, it is something they use to negate withdrawl sypmtoms because opiate abuse can cause serious illness and or even death.
People using methadone are typically trying to stay clean and I must reinforce not high after they have their "drink".
http://www.camh.net/Care_Treatment/...aintenance_Treatment/mmt_clienthndbk_ch1.html

I do not judge drug users. Many people abuse drugs and alcohol for many various reasons. Sometimes it is to self medicate, sometimes it is to hide from pain.
People speak of TM being charged after VS's murder. Well all I can say is if something happened to one of my children I am not sure how I would pull through. Would I abuse drugs or alcohol? I am not sure. Would I be more like RS and try to promote awareness? I sure hope I would. However we can not judge as we are not these people who abuse and use these substances because we have not walked a mile in their shoes.

Totally agree. My aunt who lives in St Sault Marie is addicted to Oxy and goes to a methadone clinic. She is not a meth head, it is a form of treatment to get off the Oxy's to make the withdrawl easier

 

[maxfactor]

Well said Snoofer (applause)

And a standing ovation...

 

[Sillybilly]

Was it really a planned murder? If planned would you not have the weapon already?

<rsbm>

Planning (premeditation?) can constitute just a few minutes. I suspect that the initial plan was the rape, but the plan to murder came into effect once MTR decided that VS wasn't young enough ... thus the "We can't keep her and we can't take her back".

JMO

 

[maxfactor]

<rsbm>

Planning (premeditation?) can constitute just a few minutes. I suspect that the initial plan was the rape, but the plan to murder came into effect once MTR decided that VS wasn't young enough ... thus the "We can't keep her and we can't take her back".

JMO

That's what I've been thinking too silly!! Tori may also have recognized TLM from the neighborhood too, we don't know that she hadn't seen her out walking her dog and TM wouldn't necessarily have known about it. She may even have recognized MR for all we know, when did he start dating TM's friend? MOO

 

[crazyladi]

Snipped for berivity,
there is a difference between a methadone user and a "meth head". A meth head is a crystal meth user.... BIG difference between the two. This is not the first time I have seen someome make this mistake between the two. Someone described crystal meth signs and symptoms earlier as Oxy signs and symptoms.
People using methadone are not actually getting high, it is something they use to negate withdrawl sypmtoms because opiate abuse can cause serious illness and or even death.
People using methadone are typically trying to stay clean and I must reinforce not high after they have their "drink".
http://www.camh.net/Care_Treatment/...aintenance_Treatment/mmt_clienthndbk_ch1.html

I do not judge drug users. Many people abuse drugs and alcohol for many various reasons. Sometimes it is to self medicate, sometimes it is to hide from pain.
People speak of TM being charged after VS's murder. Well all I can say is if something happened to one of my children I am not sure how I would pull through. Would I abuse drugs or alcohol? I am not sure. Would I be more like RS and try to promote awareness? I sure hope I would. However we can not judge as we are not these people who abuse and use these substances because we have not walked a mile in their shoes.

Snipped for berivity,
there is a difference between a methadone user and a "meth head". A meth head is a crystal meth user.... BIG difference between the two. This is not the first time I have seen someome make this mistake between the two. Someone described crystal meth signs and symptoms earlier as Oxy signs and symptoms.
People using methadone are not actually getting high, it is something they use to negate withdrawl sypmtoms because opiate abuse can cause serious illness and or even death.
People using methadone are typically trying to stay clean and I must reinforce not high after they have their "drink".
http://www.camh.net/Care_Treatment/...aintenance_Treatment/mmt_clienthndbk_ch1.html

I do not judge drug users. Many people abuse drugs and alcohol for many various reasons. Sometimes it is to self medicate, sometimes it is to hide from pain.
People speak of TM being charged after VS's murder. Well all I can say is if something happened to one of my children I am not sure how I would pull through. Would I abuse drugs or alcohol? I am not sure. Would I be more like RS and try to promote awareness? I sure hope I would. However we can not judge as we are not these people who abuse and use these substances because we have not walked a mile in their shoes.

Totally agree. My aunt who lives in St Sault Marie is addicted to Oxy and goes to a methadone clinic. She is not a meth head, it is a form of treatment to get off the Oxy's to make the withdrawl easier

 

[crazyladi]

OMG my computer froze and it posted 3 times.. ARGH sorry

 

[Yody04]

<rsbm>

Planning (premeditation?) can constitute just a few minutes. I suspect that the initial plan was the rape, but the plan to murder came into effect once MTR decided that VS wasn't young enough ... thus the "We can't keep her and we can't take her back".

JMO

This to me doesn't make any sence either. "We can't keep her and we can't take her back" should have been already in their minds when they were planning this whole damned thing. Did this never appear to these crazy people that this would be a problem at the end?
And what has the age to do with that?

 

[Tahorn]

Totally agree. My aunt who lives in St Sault Marie is addicted to Oxy and goes to a methadone clinic. She is not a meth head, it is a form of treatment to get off the Oxy's to make the withdrawl easier

Isnt Meth Head a term for Methamphetamine users not methadone users.

 

[Tahorn]

This to me doesn't make any sence either. "We can't keep her and we can't take her back" should have been already in their minds when they were planning this whole damned thing. Did this never appear to these crazy people that this would be a problem at the end?
And what has the age to do with that?

If the kidnapping was planned the comment, "We can't keep her and we can't take her back" would be redundant ... however it was true that MR was not aware until after the kidnapping had already committed then the comment "We can't keep her and we can't take her back" would make sense.

 

[Yody04]

It is more easily explained by the fact that there was a 28 yr old man there who apparently liked to have sex in his car.

The drug debt theory is not prevalent at all in this case. Not in the courtroom anyway. The defense couldn't prove a thing about it. Not one piece of evidence to sustain any minute part of it.

Witnesses from his past were only allowed to testify about driving around with MR in the area of the crime with a brief synopsis of their relationship to him. No one was permitted to testify about anything regarding his character and what they actually thought of him. And not one member of his family testified to it either. Because they didn't want to open up that door. Why?

He has no adult criminal record. That I will agree to. Doesn't mean anything because he was obviously leading a very criminal life.

MOO

Agree. You don't need a criminal record to be wicked in your head. We know about TLM's childhood and that explains a bit her character which is off course is not an excuse.
It might not be relevant for this trial how MTR's childhood was but me personally would like to know how his upbringing was and who failed. MOO nobody is born this way. Just trying to understand how somebody can turn into something like that. I just don't get it. Having a million women, taking advantage of blindness that love brings, pimping, using and selling drugs don't make a fine character (and some of it is illegal) BUT that what he is accused of is such a different ball game. I am repeating myself: I just don't get it

 

[Flowercb]

Yet a piece of fabric from a back seat was found. I would have to go back and check the tweet about the DNA found and the fabric forensics when I get home.

That's right and it seemed MTR took out and put his seat back in often, so we can only go by the fabric and TLM testimony--who was the witness that saw the seat closest to April 8, anyone remember?

 

[Flowercb]

The thing about MTR not knowing there was an abduction in process seems really far fetched to me, among other things.

If Tori was being kidnapped and driven out of town, she would have said something, don't you think? It seems she knew how to speak her mind.

This dupe thing with MTR just doesn't fly and I hope he gets maximum sentence and never gets out of prison, ever!!!!