Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #7

[ZsaZsa]

Anyone think maybe KC did not return the gas cans because she was planning of setting fire to the car with the cans in the back and GA ruined her plans by calling the police and reporting the cans missing. Maybe that is why she was so mad when she handed the cans back to him...jmo

But she was mad because he insisted on going back to the car to try and retrieve them when she made it plain that she didn't want him there, she would get them for him. George said that's what she was furious about, he knew she wanted him away from the car at all costs- I guess he narrowly missed seeing a dead Caylee.

 

[tankgirl]

If this type scenario occurred she would not have been able to admit she had left a drugged unconscious baby in her trunk so that she could be with her boyfriend. She would have started to try to cover up and she may have gotten the idea of taping with duct tape from the movie Untraceable (clip below) and used the old stand by nanny excuse that had been working for her for a year and a half...

*snipped*

ITA! exactly.

 

[tankgirl]

But she was mad because he insisted on going back to the car to try and retrieve them when she made it plain that she didn't want him there, she would get them for him. George said that's what she was furious about, he knew she wanted him away from the car at all costs- I guess he narrowly missed seeing a dead Caylee.

There was something in the trunk she didn't want seen. Was it just the cans? Why didn't he smell anything? ...or did he?

 

[LambChop]

But she was mad because he insisted on going back to the car to try and retrieve them when she made it plain that she didn't want him there, she would get them for him. George said that's what she was furious about, he knew she wanted him away from the car at all costs- I guess he narrowly missed seeing a dead Caylee.

The cans incident was on the 24th. Caylee was last seen on the 16th. I don't think Caylee was still in the trunk on the 24th as that is 8 full days in the Florida heat. The temp. in the trunk would reach about 120 degrees or more. There would have been body fluids everywhere making it impossible for defense to say there was ever a body in the car. After 2.6 days there was enough decomp in the trunk to measure how long the body was there. Maybe the trunk had started to smell by the 24th and that is what she was trying to hide. Rigor had to have scared KC so I would think as soon as the body started to relax, KC dumped her which is about 36 hours. jmo

 

[tankgirl]

The cans incident was on the 24th. Caylee was last seen on the 16th. I don't think Caylee was still in the trunk on the 24th as that is 8 full days in the Florida heat. The temp. in the trunk would reach about 120 degrees or more. There would have been body fluids everywhere making it impossible for defense to say there was ever a body in the car. After 2.6 days there was enough decomp in the trunk to measure how long the body was there. Maybe the trunk had started to smell by the 24th and that is what she was trying to hide. Rigor had to have scared KC so I would think as soon as the body started to relax, KC dumped her which is about 36 hours. jmo

ah, yes.. so maybe she began to realize that the stench was not going to dissipate anytime soon, in spite of the fact that the dead "squirrel" was washed away.. and so ditched the car three days later.. How strange that the laziest, most hapless behavior (if that is the case) has become so mysterious.

 

[indicajane]

All of you have such intuitive theories. I am anxious to see which theory the SA uses. I personally think she drugged her to keep her quiet in the trunk. Panic ensued when she found her dead- went the kidnapping route and used the duct tape to make it look like someone took her. Then I think she composed herself, snapped her red ruby heels to make it all go away and then went about her life. She just didn't have the energy to pull of the kidnapping story, perhaps she knew she wouldn't get away with it or perhaps the exact opposite, she didn't really care- she escaped reality, created a new one. Could never be an attorney or a detective because the details are so many they get muddled. I guess this is just my general theory.

I totally agree with this. I believe this is exactly what happened.

 

[TakeNote]

a few things that i have been thinking about......

1. why was there no shoes found at the disposal site? or in the car? or in with any of KC's belongings?

this is the only reason it brings me back to the death happening at home.....KC even mentions that Caylee talked about her new shoes when Caylee made that call to KC (no real record of a call though, just another lie of KC's)....but the shoes.....KC brings up new shoes....but yet no shoes were found......and CA says there were no shoes of Caylee's missing......to me....KC was trying to cover the fact that *if/when* caylee was found she wouldn't of had any of her own shoes on because the *nanny had bought her new ones*

if i go with caylee died away from the house the only reason for the no shoes would be....KC could have put things away in the house afterwards.....then to realize oooops....caylee was left/disposed of with out shoes....CA did say that KC told her caylee didn't need anything because the nanny had things for her

2. was KC planing on going back home that night with caylee? after she met with TonE?

from the phone records it seems as though she tried several times to get a hold of her parents or someone else to *watch* Caylee....while she met with TonE....this supports the thought that she tried to put Caylee to sleep while she went with TonE and caylee passed in the process of doing that.....or

3. she killed caylee out of rage, because she couldn't find someone to watch Caylee

4. the duct tape could have been in the car for other reasons

I just don't understand the three strips over the mouth and nose area....if this was to just silent caylee if she happened to wake up to early.....I could see one piece over the mouth....and then her hands and feet bound with tape..... three pieces of tape over the face could lead someone to believe that it was meant to silence her for good......

5. now with that being said......the only other reason I could see that there happen to be three pieces of duct tape on poor little caylee's face to support the *only to silent and baby sit* caylee.....not to kill caylee.....
is that KC used tape to hold caylee's blanket together as she was placing caylee into the garbage bags and laundry bag.....after she had died....

after the bags with caylee sat out in the weather and animals had started to do their thing....could some of the tape she used to wrap the body up in come loose and fall to the face area and clung to her hair?
this is where the pictures of the skull and duct tape would come into play to see the postion of those two other pieces of duct tape.....(unless they were layered on top of each other....hmm..i dont remember)

I understand the one piece of duct tape was tight enough to keep the chin area in tact and it was found that way after their were just bones left.....that is the piece I see as the piece that she could have used to be on/around the mouth area.....to keep her quiet if she woke up to early.....

I hope that all made since......

I have enjoyed reading every ones thoughts and ideas

 

[embracing crazy]

ITA, with Beach2, And my theory is similar to BJB's, with slight variations on his Theme. Particularly #4. I think after the wee hrs loooong phone call from late the 15th on into the early AM of 16th, with Tony, she had determined that she would spend the night of the 16th with him. Frantic calls to Amy, Jesse, Cindy and George have me thinking she wanted to leave Caylee with one of them, but that plan failed. Plan B ( drug her as she had done before so she would sleep) but since she planned to be with Tony all night, tape her up so if she awoke, she could not be heard. My question about this is whether she gave her a bigger dose than usual, which caused Caylee's death, or the drugging, tape and combination of heat in the car all combined to cause the death. She could have had her in her car seat to begin with, especially if she was sleeping, but more likely put her in the trunk at some remote place before arriving at Tony's. Several options here, when following the ping map

ITA!!! it's like ya took the words right outta my mouth. the loooooooong phone convo was pivitol in their relationship. Maybe expressing how much and how fast they've fallin for each other...maybe fighting...either way it ended with them making plans to have a low-key, just the two of them evening at home cuddling and watching movies. Monster mom couldn't find a sitter and was determinded NOT to let Caylee mess up her night.
I too think she was sedated and the tape was a 'just in case' she wakes and starts screaming solution.

 

[ynotdivein]

But she was mad because he insisted on going back to the car to try and retrieve them when she made it plain that she didn't want him there, she would get them for him. George said that's what she was furious about, he knew she wanted him away from the car at all costs- I guess he narrowly missed seeing a dead Caylee.

RBBM, ZZ... I think he narrowly missed SMELLING a dead Caylee.

Maybe.

In my less-generous moments I don't think he missed that smell on the 24th at all.

(Awesome thread all!)

 

[logicalgirl]

There is some hugely interesting information here - thanks to you all for this hard work.

So here's something I've been going back and forth on - and hoping someone here would answer but I haven't seen it yet unless I've missed it. And special thanks to JWG who I read faithfully and BondJamesBond.

If Casey used chloroform on Caylee, did Casey think she was administering enough to kill her or to put her asleep? So if it was to put her to sleep, how long would someone stay asleep if this had been done. Maybe Casey knew if she didn't give Caylee a lot of it, she would wake up earlier than she wanted her to and start screaming. Just how long does this stuff keep a person asleep?

So....if Casey didn't have a sitter and was expecting a fun night with Tony, this time she gave Caylee a lot, perhaps intending to put her to sleep forever, and taped her nose and mouth just to make sure Caylee stayed quiet for sure, for ever.

Help me out here, please! What I really want to know is how long, since I know this is a dangerous drug, would a child stay asleep, if chloroform is administered. All I know about it is what I see in movies.

 

[sumbunny]

I don't believe the tape was used in case caylee woke up and started screaming. A 2 year old would also wiggle around and pound her hands against the car. It too, would make noise. I believe the tape was used to smother caylee and shut her up for good. It was a rage killing, IMO. Caylee blabbed to Cindy and Casey was pizzed ! I can picture Cindy questioning Caylee the entire trip back from grandma's visit, and getting the "truth" on what casey and caylee do all day.

 

[LambChop]

And unless Caylee's legs were bound she could kick at the trunk and make enough noise to alert someone. Also temperatures in June are in the 90's. How long would anyone last in the trunk of a car when you add about 20 degrees to the outside temperature.

 

[steadychick]

I don't believe the tape was used in case caylee woke up and started screaming. A 2 year old would also wiggle around and pound her hands against the car. It too, would make noise. I believe the tape was used to smother caylee and shut her up for good. It was a rage killing, IMO. Caylee blabbed to Cindy and Casey was pizzed ! I can picture Cindy questioning Caylee the entire trip back from grandma's visit, and getting the "truth" on what casey and caylee do all day.

Perhaps her hands and feed were bound. There were additional pieces of tape found at the crime scene, but I don't think they were able to positively link all of them to the body. Only one additional piece had the henkle logo, IIRC. This is probably something we will never know for sure.

 

[steadychick]

I sure would like to know the content of those phone calls to Amy, Jesse, Cindy and George on the afternoon of the 16th. Cindy didn't answer her phone for some reason, but were there any vm's left? What would be great is if we had the testimony or vm of at least one person that proves she was looking for a sitter. Then we would have a little clearer timeline of when Caylee died.

 

[Aedrys]

Perhaps her hands and feed were bound. There were additional pieces of tape found at the crime scene, but I don't think they were able to positively link all of them to the body. Only one additional piece had the henkle logo, IIRC. This is probably something we will never know for sure.

This is what I am thinking. She got angry that once again, there was no babysitter, and her night with Tony might get ruined. Considering the fight that happened not that far in advance of this, I think she was absolutely furious and was going to make sure Caylee didn't interrupt her night with Tony. I think she used one piece of duct tape over Caylee's mouth, possibly to hold the blanket or something else saturated with chloroform over that area. Or she meant to only cover Caylee's mouth with one piece of tape, but didn't realize until it was too late that her nose was covered as well. In any event, she also bound her hands and feet so if Caylee woke up, she couldn't move. Then she came back after sleeping in the next day and found her dead, and realized with the bound hands and feet, it almost looked like Caylee was kidnapped. So she adds the other pieces of tape to give it more of a "kidnapped look".

One question I do have is that is it possible to tell that all three pieces of duct tape were put on her mouth at the same time, or is there some way to tell if one piece was older than the other pieces? Probably not because Caylee's body was under water in bad weather conditions, but it would be interesting if there was a scientific way to tell this or not.

Getting back to the kidnapping, the only thing that bothers me is that she didn't fully play out the kidnapping scheme. Why make it look like a kidnapping, yet leave the body down the street from the house? It's like she started out with the kidnapping and then decided that wasn't going to work at one point, and since the body was already decomposing, she wasn't going to take the tape off, so she just stupidly dumped the body down the street.

I guess I'm saying had she put more effort into it, she really could have made this look like a real kidnapping. I bet she's been kicking herself ever since for not completely following through on the kidnapping scheme. Or who knows, maybe she thought that if it just looked like a kidnapping, it wouldn't matter where Caylee was found, that LE and everyone else would just believe that's what it was and she wouldn't get into trouble.

Or, maybe she meant the kidnapping scheme for her parents only. Maybe not realizing that they were going to get LE involved, she thought they at least would believe it was a kidnapping gone wrong and wouldn't hold her responsible for the death. So she leaves Caylee's body down the street so it could be found by her parents and they could all pretend it was a botched kidnapping, bury Caylee, and then Casey could move on with her life as the sympathetic mother of a kidnapped and killed child to her parents and once again, not pay a consequence. Note: this would only work in Casey's fantasy world, not the real world.

No wonder she hates LE so much. They really screwed up everything for her in her mind. Caylee would have been out of sight, out of mind if things had gone Casey's way. Thank goodness for LE and divine intervention that prevented that from happening. The world is going to know what a horrible mother Casey was and the horrible death Caylee went through instead. Justice for Caylee will be served!

 

[Harmony 2]

* June 9th >Tony says sex picks up this week but Casey not spending the night.

(pg. 17 Anthony Lazarro July 22 transcript)
http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/0923/17540075.pdf

I might be wrong but as far as I can tell the first night Casey spent at Tony's was on June 13th and it was without Caylee. The other nights she had spent at Hopespring or with Ricardo/Amy. The 16th was a spontaneous date and detailed plans had not been made according to Tony. Casey may have hoped to perhaps have a quick sexual romp but not expected to stay the night. She may have dressed Caylee ready to return her to her bed at Hopespring late at night thus no shoes and preparations (she had done this before when dating Ricardo). The flurry of calls may have been in hope of getting babysitting so that she would not have to resort to leaving in the middle of the night.

Of interest re the chloroform: This is what Kimberly Gilfoyle, a former prosecutor, had to say ...

"...... evidence of the chloroform and they can show that it is aggravated felony child abuse which would qualify under the first degree under the felony murder rule in Florida that's how the prosecution can get the first degree even though they do not have a determined cause of death."

timestamp 4:38 [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrNTTSPwOeM&feature=related[/ame]

Still just brainstorming ideas... :waitasec:

One more thing... the high levels of chloroform would have knocked Caylee out indefinetly especially since some had been spilled on the carpet and if some had been poured on her blanket.

 

[jandkmom]

I don't believe the tape was used in case caylee woke up and started screaming. A 2 year old would also wiggle around and pound her hands against the car. It too, would make noise. I believe the tape was used to smother caylee and shut her up for good. It was a rage killing, IMO. Caylee blabbed to Cindy and Casey was pizzed ! I can picture Cindy questioning Caylee the entire trip back from grandma's visit, and getting the "truth" on what casey and caylee do all day.

I agree with you. I think Caylee mentioned something on their ride back that went against something KC had told her mom and that when they got home there was a fight. Then KC and Caylee left to live on their own and KC blamed it all on Caylee. KC didn't want to have to go back and hear that she could not make it on her on.

 

[LambChop]

I sure would like to know the content of those phone calls to Amy, Jesse, Cindy and George on the afternoon of the 16th. Cindy didn't answer her phone for some reason, but were there any vm's left? What would be great is if we had the testimony or vm of at least one person that proves she was looking for a sitter. Then we would have a little clearer timeline of when Caylee died.

Didn't JG say he spoke with her?

 

[logicalgirl]

And unless Caylee's legs were bound she could kick at the trunk and make enough noise to alert someone. Also temperatures in June are in the 90's. How long would anyone last in the trunk of a car when you add about 20 degrees to the outside temperature.

Absolutely I agree - I'm trying to make certain in my mind that Casey intended this to be a fatal dose. Which is why I asked for ideas on how long a dose of chloroform would "typically" last. I don't think this was in any shape or form an accident, but just going through the details in my mind to get rid of the speed bumps.

 

[LambChop]

Absolutely I agree - I'm trying to make certain in my mind that Casey intended this to be a fatal dose. Which is why I asked for ideas on how long a dose of chloroform would "typically" last. I don't think this was in any shape or form an accident, but just going through the details in my mind to get rid of the speed bumps.

Absolutely sad, isn't it?