TH's polygraphs

[debs]

Where has LE said she flunked her poly? I have never read that. I only know what Kaine and Desiree say.

Where has LE said anyone has passed their poly's?

Who is blaming Kaine and Desiree for their suspicions? Stating as fact that they're making comments which "are coming down hard" on Terri is stating a fact. I did not choose to interpret the original use of that phrase. LE has been more than solicitous when they talk about Terri. The worst I've heard them say is that some of her statements aren't adding up.

Who asked for them to tiptoe? I am not in the habit of dictating to someone else how they handle themselves. Again, I am observing behaviors and commenting on them, which is within my right to do. It boggles my mind that looking objectively at everything seems to warrant a severe tongue lashing by some who feel I'm attacking Kaine and Desiree. They're grownups and are choosing what they are saying to the public.

Who knows what Terri was actually saying? All we have are a few edited words from an email and some cobbled together comments from a couple other people, and what Kaine and Desiree want to tell us about THEIR impressions of what Terri said. I take it all under advisement and look at it all. That's just what I do. It doesn't call for an armed defense of Kaine and Desiree when I do so. They're grownups. They choose what they're saying. Once it's in the media, I get to evaluate it to the best of my ability.

Who can know whether she was furious or not about being questioned? We only know what we've been told by Kaine and Desiree, who have determined to make sure the public understands that Terri is THEIR number 1 suspect. I have yet to hear LE confirm that Terri is theirs.

 

[Kat010]

I understand that words can hurt. Believe me, I know personally that they can. But I don't think she's hiding in her home because their words hurt her. If you take LE out of this, she'd be on every blog she could, in every ear of anyone she could defending herself against their words. She could even sue them for it down the road if it's somehow proven that she's innocent. That is what I am saying. She is silent because anything she says can be used against her in a court of law, not because Kaine and Desiree are such meanies. I just don't think she's the type to lie down and let other's words hurt her. But the law is something totally different and she can't afford to let her words come back on her right now. So no, Kaine and Desiree are not coming down hard on her. LE is the one she's afraid of, and they are the ones making her hide and not say a word.

Also, I meant to have the word "look" in there when I was talking about the polygraphs. So I apologize for making it seem like I was talking about absolutes when I wasn't. It makes a person look guilty whether they are or not. If they had no place in LE investigation, then they wouldn't be used. And if I was giving a polygraph and someone couldn't pass it, sure, I'd want to hear more of their story, but in my mind, something is not right there and needs to be further looked into to either clear them or expose something that would get them in trouble. I would not ignore the results of a polygraph. It definitely gives a direction to look into. If that direction turns out to be guilt or innocence, at least the person was looked into is either cleared or charged. That is LE's job. They can't just say on the face of the polygraph, "Gee, they failed, but they're such a nice person and great mom, obviously this polygraph is dead wrong about them." They have to investigate if the polygraph tells them to, whether the person is innocent or guilty. LE needs some direction, and the polygraph can gives that direction. That doesn't mean, however, that that direction is always in the right place or leads to the right person. That's why polygraphs can't be used in a court of law.

BBM

Well, I tend to believe that she's staying out of the mudslinging and limelight, and keeping silent on the advice of her very highly-regarded attorney.

As for words and why she's staying home--she's received death threats, according to her attorney. Even here on WS I've seen posts saying that she should be waterboarded, or tortured, or that Kaine should take her to a deserted cabin and beat it out of her. Etc. WS management even posted a caution to us about not getting WS involved in a rumored protest in front of her parents' home (and good on WS for doing that).

We'll just have to disagree, because I think if she hires an attorney, she shoiuld take the advice of that attorney. And I also think that the amount of hatred, and words about violence directed at her, indicate that words can not only tell us how people will react to someone, but also be a precursor to egging people on for violence. Words are how mobs are formed.

So I tend to be cautious with words. But that's JMO.

 

[liz b.]

And if they had cleared her, I doubt she'd be isolated in her home without cellphone or internet. I think Houze is right and she is the de facto suspect of LE. Just because they don't say it doesn't mean it isn't true. They've probably been investigating her this whole time. LE sometimes doesn't name a POI until they arrest them.

Was it Houze who called TH a de facto suspect ? Or the attorney who is handling her divorce ? For me, it would carry more weight if Houze said it ....

All JMO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I wonder if she actually failed any of them....She has been told by LE that she didn't pass but not that she failed any 1 polygraph. LE is quite within their rights to lie to Terri if they feel more information might be gathered that way. There is a lot of difference between not passing everything and failing miserably and I notice LE has said nothing about her polygraph sessions to anyone. IF law enforcement released the info I would perhaps take more note of it. However, family members in pain and pointing fingers at the person they want it to be is not the most reliable source for the truth. After all if my child was missing I would much prefer to think him abducted by a family member who loved him than a passing stranger.

Thanks for your post and welcome to WS!

BBM. To the best of my knowledge, anything that we've heard about passed/failed polygraphs came from Kaine and/or Desiree - who also claimed that they "passed with flying colors". Reminds me of another high-profile case where this expression is used, and I will now be skeptical when someone says that they passed a poly with flying colors. Doesn't sound like phraseology that LE professionals would use, but that's jmo.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

And if they had cleared her, I doubt she'd be isolated in her home without cellphone or internet. I think Houze is right and she is the de facto suspect of LE. Just because they don't say it doesn't mean it isn't true. They've probably been investigating her this whole time. LE sometimes doesn't name a POI until they arrest them.

bbm....

Terri is not legally any different than anyone else associated with kyron's disappearance. Terri is not islolated in her home and she has every right to own a cell phone and a computer with internet conection, just as we all do.

also is was terri's divorce attorney who called her a defacto suspect.

In addition, her divorce attorney Peter Bunch acknowledged in court papers filed for Horman this week that she is a 'de facto suspect" at the center of a police investigation.

http://theworldlink.com/news/local/a...e7f9abe66.html

 

[Aedrys]

bbm....

Terri is not legally any different than anyone else associated with kyron's disappearance. Terri is not islolated in her home and she has every right to own a cell phone and a computer with internet conection, just as we all do.

also is was terri's divorce attorney who called her a defacto suspect.

In addition, her divorce attorney Peter Bunch acknowledged in court papers filed for Horman this week that she is a 'de facto suspect" at the center of a police investigation.

http://theworldlink.com/news/local/a...e7f9abe66.html

Thank you. I thought it was Houze that said it, but it was Bunch. My mistake. It would be more convincing from Houze. Also, her own son, in an interview, was the one who said that she was lonely in her own home without a cellphone or a computer, so I am not making that up. That was probably on advice from Houze, and considering the texting and emails in the beginning, I don't blame him for muzzling her. And I don't think her own son would lie about something like that. She has a right to it, and what she does with it can be used against her as well.

I think DY and KH have every right to be hard on her (even though I just don't see what they've done as being hard on her) if she did something to Kyron. I don't understand this notion that they're supposed to be nice to her even though her own actions, words, bad alibi, and LE have basically led them to believe she had something to do with it. They didn't just make this up out of the blue. Until she is cleared by LE or someone else confesses, what are they supposed to do? They can't assume she's innocent with all that they have heard from LE and with what their gut is telling them. I don't feel sorry her. She brought most of this on herself through her own words (yes, even written and texted words count) and actions. Why would they lie about what she said to them? That doesn't make any sense to me. Just because she's being silent, and just because she may not have passed some polygraphs doesn't mean she's innocent and it's the system and everyone else that is corrupt.

 

[Cajun Girl]

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman.html

It was in this article a minor stated that she is lonely and unable to use the phone or a computer under the advice of her lawyer. So while she is 'free' to enjoy these things it would appear has been advised not to. But, yes, the choice is hers.

 

[debs]

I'm still confused over where someone has suggested that Desiree and Kaine should be nice to Terri. They are saying what they feel they need to say. That's not the same as people then looking at what they say and evaluating it. In fact, it's no different than evaluating Terri's silence.
Everything has it's repercussions, and I assume they've weighed that and considered it minor in comparison with getting their message across. Fair enough.

 

[Krisy]

Do you think IF she passed she would have put that info "out there". Herself, leaked it or Dede share it?

Hmmm, I'm not sure.

I think I would shout it out...HEY I PASSED, now back off. Kyron is missing and your focus is so wrong.

 

[MarieFaith]

Although I am someone who is very suspicious of Terri where the disappearance of Kyron is concerned, the speculation that she failed one or more polygraph tests means almost nothing to me.

I "failed" a polygraph test once.

Many years ago, I was being considered for the job of secretary to a special crimes unit in a large city which was investigating a string of murders. I had to take a polygraph test. I knew absolutely nothing of what it would be like. I arrived at the appointed place as nonchalantly as if I were going to the dentist for a routine cleaning.

It was a total fluke that someone recommended me for this position. I was not even a person who was "interested" in crime. But I thought it sounded more interesting than working for a bank, so I said, "sure, why not?"

Boy, was I in for a shock. I couldn't believe the intimate nature of the questions. I answered them on paper, and didn't even realize that I would then be answering the same awful questions again once I was hooked up. Once I was hooked up, I really struggled just to maintain my composure in the face of being so embarrassed at having a "real man" pose these sorts of questions at me. They were bad enough on paper.

I got really flustered. Midway through this ordeal, the investigator suggested that he stop, and I totally agreed, and got out of there as fast as I could. I doubt I even looked the guy in the face.

So, I failed a polygraph, and it was purely out of embarrassment. Maybe Terri's nerves were just too frayed to go through with it, or to score "correctly." I would think that just the fact that LE wanted her to take a third test would be pretty unnerving, even if she really didn't have anything about Kyron to hide. Maybe the questions she "failed" concerned her marriage, affairs, etc. We don't know.

I really don't know why polygraphs are even conducted. What do they prove, except that one person can be more "cool" under pressure than another person?

 

[Kimberlyd125]

IMO she failed them.
IMO she has not worried about where Kyron is since day 1 because she KNOWS where he is.

Who loves a missing child and acts the way she has? She has been in "cover up" mode since very early. Even before she had the attorney.

JMO

 

[jadejazzkayla]

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman.html

It was in this article a minor stated that she is lonely and unable to use the phone or a computer under the advice of her lawyer. So while she is 'free' to enjoy these things it would appear has been advised not to. But, yes, the choice is hers.

thank you for the link cajun.

the reporter quotes j at times and at other times she attributes her words to J.

here are the actual J quotes.

"The only difference between her relationship with Kyron and me was the difference in ages," he said.

"If you didn't follow the rules, you'd get in trouble," J said.

"School was boring," he said.

"It didn't bother me," he said. "Me and my mom moved around a lot, and I came down in summers anyway."

"I've never seen Kaine cry until Kyron went missing," J said,

"He was like a dad to me," J said. "I lived with him for eight years."

"I think she's really lonely," J said. "She's not supposed to leave the house."

here are her words she attributes to J.


that terri treated Kyron like her own son.

that terri was the first to recognize that Kyron needed glasses and taught him sign language by the time he was 6 months so she could communicate with him.

that he only heard his mother and Kaine fight once in eight years.

that J described Kaine as calm but strict.

that J had to mow the lawn, take the trash down the quarter-mile driveway and help his mom wash the dishes.

that J was also a voracious reader, spending more than 16 hours a week absorbed in books

that J often cut classes at Lincoln High to browse Powell's Books.

that the family was devastated.

that his mother was hysterical.

that he misses his little sister — and would like to see Kaine as well.

that Terri has a treadmill in her parents' home but no cell phone or computer.

-------------------------------------------------
cajun quote bbm...

there is no mention in the article that Terri was unable to use the phone or a computer under the advice of her lawyer or for any other reason.

 

[Dee10]

Just curious why J said "She's not suppose to leave the house?" Would her parents tell her that, who would that be I wonder?

 

[Dee10]

Just curious why J said "She's not suppose to leave the house?" Would her parents tell her that, who would that be I wonder?

ETA - Never mind, from the article "She's rarely been seen in public under orders from defense attorney Stephen Houze."

 

[jadejazzkayla]

ETA - Never mind, from the article "She's rarely been seen in public under orders from defense attorney Stephen Houze."

exactly. and the part about under orders from defense attorney stephen houze is not attributed to J or anyone else in the article. just the reporter sensationalizing.

 

[Aedrys]

exactly. and the part about under orders from defense attorney stephen houze is not attributed to J or anyone else in the article. just the reporter sensationalizing.

Well, the only time we've seen around town is at the courthouse with a slew of bodyguards and her lawyers. And there haven't been any texts or emails from her lately either. I'd say she's following orders and staying out of sight, and off the phone and computer. Otherwise, there'd be a lot more for us to talk about as she is the type that cannot help but shoot herself in the foot given the opportunity to do so.

 

[Dee10]

exactly. and the part about under orders from defense attorney stephen houze is not attributed to J or anyone else in the article. just the reporter sensationalizing.

True, it is up to each individual whether they believe the reporter. I choose to believe it because it makes sense & I highly doubt the reporter would use the words "under orders from defense attorney Stephen Houze" if not factual for legal reasons given this attorney particularily

 

[pufnstuf]

ETA - Never mind, from the article "She's rarely been seen in public under orders from defense attorney Stephen Houze."

Yeah, after the Cook fiasco (sharing the RO, etc.) Houze probably laid down the law with her...told her to either abide by his advice or find another defense lawyer. Bad enough to try to fight for a possibly-future-defendant in a child abduction/murder case...worse when the possibly-future-defendant behaves recklessly by ignoring a court order.

 

[Donjeta]

I am suspicious of polygraphs in general because they aren't all that reliable but it is certainly interesting if the person who has inconsistencies or holes in their story is the only one to fail one, or several.

When it comes to Terri being LE's no. 1 suspect or not it is interesting to me to know that Dede Spicher was called in front of the GJ. Apparently she's got nothing to do with Kyron or his school, she's just a friend of Terri's, so what could she possibly have to say that would be of relevance unless it's questions about Terri? We have also heard that there were employees from the Starbucks testifying whose connection with the case apparently has to do with Terri's whereabouts or demeanor that morning. Andrea Leckey was there as well, apparently to testify about her encounter with Terri that morning. Maybe you could say that they were there just to clarify that Terri has an alibi and is not a suspect but it is noteworthy to me that we haven't heard is that Terri has been called to testify. It would be understandable if she's the suspect but IMO utterly surprising if anyone else is, since she would be a material witness IMO in any other case, having reportedly been the last person/adult to see or talk with Kyron that morning and knowing him very well from her family connection over several years. If it's an acquaintance perp she might know him/her as well and have information to share about the perp's relationship to Kyron or the family.

 

[BeanE]

Back to the topic of whether Terri failed the third poly, to recap what we've determined in order to try to answer this question:

- Kaine has said in one interview that Terri said that LE said the she failed the third poly. (audio Willamette Week)

- Desiree has said in one interview that Terri failed two polys. (People mag)

Considerations:

- Kaine's memory of what Terri said

- Terri's understanding of what LE said to her about her third poly results

- LE sometimes tells a person they failed a poly when they didn't in order to try to elicit more information

- Polygraphs are unreliable

- Unknown basis for Desiree's statement about Terri failing two polys

- Sometimes people refer to an inconclusive poly as a failed poly

- LE may have been truthful with Terri that she failed the third poly

- Terri may have been accurate when she vented that she failed the third poly


Personally, I would be more convinced that Terri failed the third poly if Kaine had consistently stated, more than once, and directly, as he did in the audio interview, that she's said she failed it, or of course, if LE had ever stated that Terri failed the third poly.

In the audio, Kaine states that Terri failed in a specific area in the first poly. I would like to know what that area was, and why it didn't bother him at the time, and for some time afterwards.

I would also like to know if Terri indeed failed the third poly, if it was on the same questions, or additional/different questions.

I have to assume that Terri was asked if she harmed Kyron in both polys, and I also have to assume she answered 'no'. I would like to know the results on that question.

Something that sticks in my mind is LE asking for the video from Albertson's. That makes me ponder whether the question(s) Terri may have failed on were her whereabouts during the approximate hour she claims to have driven around to soothe the baby.

When I put all the info together, my current conclusion is that Terri had inconclusives on both the first and third polys, on one or a few specific questions. There are two main influences on my current conclusion. One is Kaine's seeming avoidance of stating directly that Terri failed the third poly, and the second is the early report regarding some of Terri's answers being "evasive".

My current conclusion is, of course, subject to change with additional info, or... just 'cause I get some crazy idea.